Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl … 08258.html

The "No Labels" group that held its inaugural meeting this week in the name of the political center fills me with passionate ambivalence. My attitude is moderately supportive and moderately critical -- accented by a moderate touch of cynicism.

Who can disagree with a call to put aside "petty partisanship" and embrace "practical solutions"? Let's cheer the group's insistence on "fact-based discussions." Too much political talk these days is utterly disconnected from what's actually true. Fact-based always beats fantasy-based.

The No Labelers are also right to be repulsed by the replacement of real argument with a vicious brand of name-calling. When a president of the United States is attacked simultaneously as an "extreme liberal liar" and a "Nazi," there is a sick irrationality at work in our discourse.

And, heck, full disclosure requires me to acknowledge that in 1991, I wrote a book called "Why Americans Hate Politics" in which I extolled "the great American middle" that represented "the restive majority."

"This great American middle felt cheated by our politics for most of the last 30 years," I argued. "In liberalism it saw a creed that demeaned its values; in conservatism it saw a doctrine that shortchanged its interests."

I still like those lines, so what's my problem with these neo-restive-majority types?

The basic difficulty arises from a false equivalence they make between our current "left" and our current "right." The truth is that the American right is much farther from anything that can fairly be described as "the center" than is the left.

Indeed, there is no far left to speak of anymore. Even among socialists -- I'm talking about real ones -- almost all now acknowledge the benefits of markets, no longer propose state ownership of the means of production, and accept the inevitability of inequalities in wealth and income. What they oppose is the rise of extreme inequalities that are antithetical to both a healthy democracy and a healthy market economy.

In the meantime, large parts of the right have moved to positions that Ronald Reagan didn't dare take, or abandoned in the name of realism: voucherizing Medicare, partially privatizing Social Security, insisting that the New Deal represented an unconstitutional power grab, and eviscerating inheritance taxes and progressive income taxes.

So successful has the right been in dragooning the discourse that President Obama's health care plan, a rewrite of middle-of-the-road Republican ideas from 15 years ago, is condemned as radical. His overall program and his rhetoric are more restrained than FDR's, Harry Truman's or LBJ's.

I am still devoted to moderation but reject a cult of the center that defines as good anything that can be called bipartisan. Some of the same centrists who just a few weeks ago called for bipartisan efforts to slash the deficit now praise Obama's tax deal with Republicans, even though it increases the very same deficit by around $900 billion. Exactly what principle is at work here other than a belief that any deal blessed by Republicans deserves praise?

The No Labelers' core problem was illustrated by Politico's Ben Smith, who noted that they opened their New York City meeting "with just one label largely absent: Republican."

The few Republicans present were admirable people driven from their party by the right wing. Reps. Mike Castle of Delaware and Bob Inglis of South Carolina lost primaries this year, and Gov. Charlie Crist of Florida ran for the Senate as an independent. They were joined by New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg, the ex-semi-Republican, and former Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, who declined to run for the Senate in 2008 when the GOP chose to pick its candidate through a convention destined to be dominated by ultra-conservatives.

Moderation, very much alive on the center-left and among Democrats, is so dead in the Republican Party and on the right that even a staunch conservative such as David Frum, a former George W. Bush speechwriter and No Labels co-founder, is an apostate. He was too quick to raise questions about Sarah Palin's qualifications and dares to think that Republicans need to get serious about problems such as health care.

The No Labelers can yet be a constructive force if they remind us of how extreme the right has become and help broker an alliance between the center and the left, the only coalition that can realistically stop an ever more zealous brand of conservatism. But they will have to admit that labels aren't the real problem. What lies behind them is.


This is basically exactly how I view American politics at the moment.  For a First World country, we are much further to the right than our economic peers, and it seems that the Republicans continue to trend rightward in their rhetoric and intentions while the Democrats generally find themselves backtracking to the right most of the time.

Meanwhile, when the Republicans actually gain power, they don't decrease our debts anymore than the Democrats do.

It just seems rather ridiculous overall.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5512|Cleveland, Ohio
no whats ridiculous is we buy ipods and other crap we dont need which is made from minerals from the Congo and from those profits they fund war.  so when you are listening to your ipod or playing with your droid be thankful you are helping to rape and murder people.  that is the stuff you should really be worried about instead of your anti right wing threads.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-12-16 10:10:36)

UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5311|Massachusetts, USA

11 Bravo wrote:

no whats ridiculous is we buy ipods and other crap we dont need which is made from minerals from the Congo and from those profits they fund war.  so when you are listening to your ipod or playing with your droid be thankful you are helping to rape and murder people.  that is the stuff you should really be worried about instead of your anti right wing threads.
Shhh, don't interrupt the ignorant with their mudslinging.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6745
i suggest you go and read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achieving_Our_Country

amazing book
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

11 Bravo wrote:

no whats ridiculous is we buy ipods and other crap we dont need which is made from minerals from the Congo and from those profits they fund war.  so when you are listening to your ipod or playing with your droid be thankful you are helping to rape and murder people.  that is the stuff you should really be worried about instead of your anti right wing threads.
I would argue that the important aspects of liberalism are mostly in reference to the civil rights of your own citizens.  What the Congo decides to do as a result of multinational influences and our own consumption is somewhat concerning but still a lesser concern to what is going on here.

Granted, I'm in the middle.  I'm considered a liberal in most respects in America, but I would be considered a conservative in most of Europe, Canada, and Australia.

Don't get me wrong.  I don't like Apple, and I think Steve Jobs is a douchebag.  I would also agree that consumerism has some negative aspects, but I'm not anti-consumerist anymore than I am pro-corporate corruption.

I'm anti-far right -- the far right being what seems to be taking hold of the GOP due to groups like Tea Partiers and the religious right.

Sorry if my thread offends you though.  It would seem half of your responses to my threads border on trolling.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5512|Cleveland, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

no whats ridiculous is we buy ipods and other crap we dont need which is made from minerals from the Congo and from those profits they fund war.  so when you are listening to your ipod or playing with your droid be thankful you are helping to rape and murder people.  that is the stuff you should really be worried about instead of your anti right wing threads.
I would argue that the important aspects of liberalism are mostly in reference to the civil rights of your own citizens.  What the Congo decides to do as a result of multinational influences and our own consumption is somewhat concerning but still a lesser concern to what is going on here.

Granted, I'm in the middle.  I'm considered a liberal in most respects in America, but I would be considered a conservative in most of Europe, Canada, and Australia.

Don't get me wrong.  I don't like Apple, and I think Steve Jobs is a douchebag.  I would also agree that consumerism has some negative aspects, but I'm not anti-consumerist anymore than I am pro-corporate corruption.

I'm anti-far right -- the far right being what seems to be taking hold of the GOP due to groups like Tea Partiers and the religious right.

Sorry if my thread offends you though.  It would seem half of your responses to my threads border on trolling.
wrong.  nafta (bubba clintons baby(democrap)) has not made anything better for poor mexicans.  in fact it has gotten worse.  just like when we buy useless shit in the name of international trade.  so what if someone chops off a womens breasts just so you can have an ipad, right?  WE are the reason that happens.  if that is not a concern to you more than worrying about stupid tea baggers then i feel sorry for you.

and youre just trolling the conservs.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-12-16 11:06:18)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

i suggest you go and read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achieving_Our_Country

amazing book
It looks interesting...  hmmm
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

11 Bravo wrote:

wrong.  nafta (bubba clintons baby(democrap)) has not made anything better for poor mexicans.  in fact it has gotten worse.  just like when we buy useless shit in the name of international trade.  so what if someone chops off a womens breats just so you can have an ipad, right?  WE are the reason that happens.  if that is not a concern to you more than worrying about stupid tea baggers then i feel sorry for you.

and youre just trolling the conservs.
Now wait just a minute.  For the majority of the time I've been at this forum, you've pretty much balked at any sort of consumer activism outside of food related or animal related issues.   When did this change?
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5512|Cleveland, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

wrong.  nafta (bubba clintons baby(democrap)) has not made anything better for poor mexicans.  in fact it has gotten worse.  just like when we buy useless shit in the name of international trade.  so what if someone chops off a womens breats just so you can have an ipad, right?  WE are the reason that happens.  if that is not a concern to you more than worrying about stupid tea baggers then i feel sorry for you.

and youre just trolling the conservs.
Now wait just a minute.  For the majority of the time I've been at this forum, you've pretty much balked at any sort of consumer activism outside of food related or animal related issues.   When did this change?
not true.  ive had my rants aboot diamonds and stuff from china also.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

11 Bravo wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

wrong.  nafta (bubba clintons baby(democrap)) has not made anything better for poor mexicans.  in fact it has gotten worse.  just like when we buy useless shit in the name of international trade.  so what if someone chops off a womens breats just so you can have an ipad, right?  WE are the reason that happens.  if that is not a concern to you more than worrying about stupid tea baggers then i feel sorry for you.

and youre just trolling the conservs.
Now wait just a minute.  For the majority of the time I've been at this forum, you've pretty much balked at any sort of consumer activism outside of food related or animal related issues.   When did this change?
not true.  ive had my rants aboot diamonds and stuff from china also.
Alright, I must have missed those.

Anyway, I can assure you that the tea baggers you're defending care even less about these issues than the Democrats do.
13rin
Member
+977|6754

Turquoise wrote:

This is basically exactly how I view American politics at the moment.  For a First World country, we are much further to the right than our economic peers, and it seems that the Republicans continue to trend rightward in their rhetoric and intentions while the Democrats generally find themselves backtracking to the right most of the time.

Meanwhile, when the Republicans actually gain power, they don't decrease our debts anymore than the Democrats do.

It just seems rather ridiculous overall.
Of course we're farther right than most all, seeing how the country was founded by very pious people.  But the D's "backtracking to the right most of the time?" -Oh please.  When before the midterms has this happened?  Remember the "sit in the back" & "how to hold the mop" quips by the chumpincharge?  R's were literally locked out of meetings discussing the healthcare bill.  Hell -look at what Pelosi did to Newts rules when she took over (yea they really ceded ground *eyeroll)

As to these labelers... Er sorry, labels are what defines us.  Generally when people don't want you to know who they really are -they're ashamed of it and up to no good.  Funny how libs now go for the term 'progressive'...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

This is basically exactly how I view American politics at the moment.  For a First World country, we are much further to the right than our economic peers, and it seems that the Republicans continue to trend rightward in their rhetoric and intentions while the Democrats generally find themselves backtracking to the right most of the time.

Meanwhile, when the Republicans actually gain power, they don't decrease our debts anymore than the Democrats do.

It just seems rather ridiculous overall.
Of course we're farther right than most all, seeing how the country was founded by very pious people.  But the D's "backtracking to the right most of the time?" -Oh please.  When before the midterms has this happened?  Remember the "sit in the back" & "how to hold the mop" quips by the chumpincharge?  R's were literally locked out of meetings discussing the healthcare bill.  Hell -look at what Pelosi did to Newts rules when she took over (yea they really ceded ground *eyeroll)

As to these labelers... Er sorry, labels are what defines us.  Generally when people don't want you to know who they really are -they're ashamed of it and up to no good.  Funny how libs now go for the term 'progressive'...
...and how much did the Republicans give Democrats when they held both houses and the presidency?  They didn't even have the margin of dominance that the Democrats had either.   Granted, it did last longer.

The Democrats have the Blue Dogs.  They are pretty moderate and would seem to outnumber the left wing members of the party.  You can't say the same for the GOP.  There aren't many moderate conservatives left among the GOP in Congress.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7046|PNW

Bipartisanship: My way or the highway; you too, Repubs.
13rin
Member
+977|6754

Turquoise wrote:

...and how much did the Republicans give Democrats when they held both houses and the presidency?  They didn't even have the margin of dominance that the Democrats had either.   Granted, it did last longer.

The Democrats have the Blue Dogs.  They are pretty moderate and would seem to outnumber the left wing members of the party.  You can't say the same for the GOP.  There aren't many moderate conservatives left among the GOP in Congress.
Go and look at the rules Newt installed when he was the speaker of the House -It was for the sake of the D's and to afford them a voice. 

Blue dog democrats have been lap dogs.  Example?  Alan Boyd claimed to be one yet he voted with peolsi some 98% of the time (I believe).
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...and how much did the Republicans give Democrats when they held both houses and the presidency?  They didn't even have the margin of dominance that the Democrats had either.   Granted, it did last longer.

The Democrats have the Blue Dogs.  They are pretty moderate and would seem to outnumber the left wing members of the party.  You can't say the same for the GOP.  There aren't many moderate conservatives left among the GOP in Congress.
Go and look at the rules Newt installed when he was the speaker of the House -It was for the sake of the D's and to afford them a voice. 

Blue dog democrats have been lap dogs.  Example?  Alan Boyd claimed to be one yet he voted with peolsi some 98% of the time (I believe).
And did the GOP rule like Newt did after he left?  I understand where you're coming from, but it just seems hypocritical to say that Democrats weren't giving the GOP enough of a voice during the short period they had both houses and the Presidency.  The GOP was even more obstructionist in that period than the Democrats were between 2001 and 2006.  This was especially shown in how the GOP fought every single part of socialized care, whether it was an NHS, a public option, or even just basic reforms of insurance policies.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6989|US
Would those be the "basic reforms" that stretch the commerce clause like silly putty?  The ones that now attempt to penalize economic inactivity?  The ones that will bring billions in new spending (that we haven't paid for)?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

RAIMIUS wrote:

Would those be the "basic reforms" that stretch the commerce clause like silly putty?  The ones that now attempt to penalize economic inactivity?  The ones that will bring billions in new spending (that we haven't paid for)?
I was referring more to things like protecting people from providers dropping them or refusing them just because of pre-existing conditions.

The final bill for Obamacare was a mere shadow of the original NHS proposed.  Now, there's not even a public option -- mostly thanks to lobbyists and the GOP's obstructionism along with the Blue Dogs of the Democrats.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6381|eXtreme to the maX

11 Bravo wrote:

no whats ridiculous is we buy ipods and other crap we dont need which is made from minerals from the Congo and from those profits they fund war.  so when you are listening to your ipod or playing with your droid be thankful you are helping to rape and murder people.  that is the stuff you should really be worried about instead of your anti right wing threads.
This is true, however petty partisanship and politicians who spend more time worrying about whether what they are doing is in accord with 200 year old theories is why things like this never get addressed.

Nothing really gets done in the year leading up to an election, not much gets done in the first six months of office, nothing much gets done in the lead-up to mid-terms, if one party controls the congress and one controls the senate nothing at all gets done.

Typically in a four year presidential term there is a window of about six months to get stuff done - thanks to childish partisanship and bickering.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-12-16 14:26:56)

Fuck Israel
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5860

Who gives a shit. I'm not going to give up or pay more for my electronics just because some third worlders can't get their acts together.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6381|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

Who gives a shit. I'm not going to give up or pay more for my electronics just because some third worlders can't get their acts together.
I'm not buying American if the Chinese can produce goods cheaper. I don't give a fuck if they use retards as slaves.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BD11Q20101214

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-12-16 14:28:44)

Fuck Israel
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5860

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Who gives a shit. I'm not going to give up or pay more for my electronics just because some third worlders can't get their acts together.
I'm not buying American if the Chinese can produce goods cheaper.
oh okay. I have no idea what that has to do with anything though.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6381|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

oh okay. I have no idea what that has to do with anything though.
Duh, you're prepared to buy crap without caring how or where its made as long as its cheap.
I'm not going to give up or pay more for my electronics just because some third worlders can't get their acts together.
Fuck Israel
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5860

Oops before your edit I thought you were going to try to make some stupid point about America sucking or something. You know a typical Dilbert post.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6381|eXtreme to the maX
America does suck though - see the OP.
Fuck Israel
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6629
They want bi-partisanship and co-operation cause they lost power. When they had it all they were like
" bend em over and give it to em in the ass "
" Hey shut up you lost "
" the elections over "
" they have to sit in the back of the bus "

For the record they have not created anything that hasn't become a disaster or a failure in the last 70 years. Everything they run, they run poorly. They have very little creditability left with experienced people, hence the attempt to hide under a New Label " No-Label " only a real dolt wont know who they are. Almost every disaster can trace its origins to something they had a hand in. Telling people you " care more and mean well " should only go so far with and intellegent educated voter. Clearly it's time for some other course before all is lost. This is the last stand I can think of no other place to go.

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-12-16 16:47:39)

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