Yeah, that and the battleship sinking means there's obviously something going on. Don't get me wrong, these guys responded to a military excercise by indiscriminately firing at a populated island, there's not much you can defend about that. Then again, there's no reports on how the South Koreans responded except for that they fired back. They might have well have done the same thing (indiscriminate firing), except they can lie about it and everyone would beleive them.dayarath wrote:
Well considering these excersises are annually, I wonder why after decades they decided to barrage an island now instead of in earlier years.Mekstizzle wrote:
From what I've read it was the South Koreans who provoked it by having arty exercises really close to the border, so it wasn't an unprovoked massive barrage as everyone seems to beleive...there's abit of background to it...
Am not worried about anything because you get the usual SK response. Doing a full scale artillery barrage is a whole lot heavier than a small skirmish around the border though.
That the ship sank due to an NK torpedo is pretty much an established fact but the hard part is proving there was an NK sub there at that time on gov orders. This is in clear eyesight.
That the ship sank due to an NK torpedo is pretty much an established fact but the hard part is proving there was an NK sub there at that time on gov orders. This is in clear eyesight.
frigateMekstizzle wrote:
battleship
Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-23 08:30:23)
inane little opines
I dunno, there's still an air of uncertainty about that. I know it's not much, but in terms of secretly taking down a ship vs openly doing a massive barrage on a populated island full of civilians is different...FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
No uncertainty whatsoever. The recovered torpedo is North Korean. North Korean sub operating in the area at the time. Other stuff I'm not sure was reported in open press, so I won't share here.Mekstizzle wrote:
I dunno, there's still an air of uncertainty about that. I know it's not much, but in terms of secretly taking down a ship vs openly doing a massive barrage on a populated island full of civilians is different...FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
Both are clearly provocative acts. And precedence is that nothing will be done, well beyond the ship incident. Shelling happens regularly. DMZ incisions happen regularly. Deaths on both sides happen regularly.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that nuking looks bad, but in the case of North Korea, it might be the best option.Mekstizzle wrote:
There's more to war than outright winning and losing, the US and co. aren't prepared anymore to lose tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers within the space of a few days and we never will be. That's the bottom line...
the us has gone to war for far, far less than this. south korea knows they will get buttfucked. generations of starcraft kids and mcdonalds versus generations of people who grew up think america was the devil and south koreans are cannablistic demons and a generation who also lived through famines and in a state where the military is the best thing you can do with your life.
south korea gonna get fucked if north korea attacks and i doubt america could save them this time
south korea gonna get fucked if north korea attacks and i doubt america could save them this time
As I said there's no reason to really -get worried- yet, but the last two incidents do stand out in the history of the past 3-4 decades of border disputes.FEOS wrote:
No uncertainty whatsoever. The recovered torpedo is North Korean. North Korean sub operating in the area at the time. Other stuff I'm not sure was reported in open press, so I won't share here.
Both are clearly provocative acts. And precedence is that nothing will be done, well beyond the ship incident. Shelling happens regularly. DMZ incisions happen regularly. Deaths on both sides happen regularly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bo … orth_Korea
Might aswell not have a RoE when fighting a war if you want to go by efficiency. There is no way in hell anyone would ever consider using nukes unless we're talking batshit insane extremists. Not even in a conventional war.Turqouise wrote:
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that nuking looks bad, but in the case of North Korea, it might be the best option.
Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-23 08:43:50)
inane little opines
Well, North Korea has nukes and is ruled by an extremist.dayarath wrote:
Might aswell not have a RoE when fighting a war if you want to go by efficiency. There is no way in hell anyone would ever consider using nukes unless we're talking batshit insane extremists. Not even in a conventional war.Turqouise wrote:
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that nuking looks bad, but in the case of North Korea, it might be the best option.
And have your country lose face internationally everywhere? Don't think you'd risk that. Even though they have nukes their missiles tend to disintegrate and I'm fairly certain pretty much every launch facility is known to NATO.Turquoise wrote:
Well, North Korea has nukes and is ruled by an extremist.dayarath wrote:
Might aswell not have a RoE when fighting a war if you want to go by efficiency. There is no way in hell anyone would ever consider using nukes unless we're talking batshit insane extremists. Not even in a conventional war.Turqouise wrote:
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that nuking looks bad, but in the case of North Korea, it might be the best option.
nuking NK pre-emptively won't stop them from maybe using their nuke, either. Best off simply disabling their ability to do anything in a normal air raid.
inane little opines
Fair enough, but if it required nuking North Korea to save South Korea, I would hope we would do it regardless of the reputation costs. Either way, North Korea really needs to be dealt with in the long run.dayarath wrote:
And have your country lose face internationally everywhere? Don't think you'd risk that. Even though they have nukes their missiles tend to disintegrate and I'm fairly certain pretty much every launch facility is known to NATO.Turquoise wrote:
Well, North Korea has nukes and is ruled by an extremist.dayarath wrote:
Might aswell not have a RoE when fighting a war if you want to go by efficiency. There is no way in hell anyone would ever consider using nukes unless we're talking batshit insane extremists. Not even in a conventional war.
nuking NK pre-emptively won't stop them from maybe using their nuke, either. Best off simply disabling their ability to do anything in a normal air raid.
Napalm. Lots of it. No.1 proven Asian repellent.Turquoise wrote:
Fair enough, but if it required nuking North Korea to save South Korea, I would hope we would do it regardless of the reputation costs. Either way, North Korea really needs to be dealt with in the long run.dayarath wrote:
And have your country lose face internationally everywhere? Don't think you'd risk that. Even though they have nukes their missiles tend to disintegrate and I'm fairly certain pretty much every launch facility is known to NATO.Turquoise wrote:
Well, North Korea has nukes and is ruled by an extremist.
nuking NK pre-emptively won't stop them from maybe using their nuke, either. Best off simply disabling their ability to do anything in a normal air raid.
nK doesn't "have nukes." They have barely tested a nuclear device. That's a far cry from having a nuclear weapon that can be delivered via one of their operational weapon systems. That's an even farther cry from having enough of them in that condition (with appropriately trained crews to deliver them) to have a relevant military effect.
The biggest concern with nK is them sliming everything with chem/bio weapons, which they DO have in abundance, along with the means to deliver them.
The biggest concern with nK is them sliming everything with chem/bio weapons, which they DO have in abundance, along with the means to deliver them.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise, if you don't stop saying 'fair enough' in every single post you type I'm going to throw my fucking keyboard.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
They're genuinly pissed off now, you can't expect SK to put up with this shit forever. If these actions won't lead to an end of the armistice it may definately be a primary cause of it if it eventually does end - unless due to some miracle NK starts re-integrating into the international society.Lee Myung-bak wrote:
Hours after North Korea's deadly artillery attacks on Tuesday, South Korea's president said "enormous retaliation" is needed to stop Pyongyang's incitement, but international diplomats urgently appealed for restraint.
"The provocation this time can be regarded as an invasion of South Korean territory," President Lee Myung-bak said at the headquarters of the Joint Chiefs of Staff here, according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.
-----
Lee called "indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a grave matter." He said that since "North Korea maintains an offensive posture, South Korea's military forces -- the army, air force and navy -- "should unite and retaliate against [the North's] provocation with multiple-fold firepower."
"Reckless attacks on South Korean civilians are not tolerable, especially when South Korea is providing North Korea with humanitarian aid," Lee said, according to Yonhap.
----- the tone gets a little more lenient further on though
After the incident, Yonhap said the Seoul government "banned its nationals from entering the communist state, indefinitely postponed their scheduled Red Cross talks and began looking at ways to push the United Nations to condemn Pyongyang."
This latest action occurred during South Korean maritime military drills. North Korea said the incident stemmed from those exercises, codenamed Hoguk, and called the activity "war maneuvers for a war of aggression."
Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-23 09:00:17)
inane little opines
Fair.. ahem... Perhaps.JohnG@lt wrote:
Turquoise, if you don't stop saying 'fair enough' in every single post you type I'm going to throw my fucking keyboard.
Yeah I said it's not much (the uncertainty) but it's still not as clear-cut and in (literally) broad daylight as this one, also they were attacking indiscriminately. Not specifically against the South Korean military or border posts or whatever like the other times, they just started shelling an island wherever the hell they felt like shellingFEOS wrote:
No uncertainty whatsoever. The recovered torpedo is North Korean. North Korean sub operating in the area at the time. Other stuff I'm not sure was reported in open press, so I won't share here.Mekstizzle wrote:
I dunno, there's still an air of uncertainty about that. I know it's not much, but in terms of secretly taking down a ship vs openly doing a massive barrage on a populated island full of civilians is different...FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
Both are clearly provocative acts. And precedence is that nothing will be done, well beyond the ship incident. Shelling happens regularly. DMZ incisions happen regularly. Deaths on both sides happen regularly.
I just saw "incisions." fucking iPad autocorrect. Supposed to be "incursions."
Grrrrr.
Grrrrr.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
nigh impossible to type on those things, I'd take a normal keyboard anyday.FEOS wrote:
I just saw "incisions." fucking iPad autocorrect. Supposed to be "incursions."
Grrrrr.
inane little opines
I don't get this. We're supposed to ignore this because it happens all the time? No rational person is saying bomb them.. but I think NK and SK are the ones that need to calm down, before they wake up the parents and everyone is unhappy.FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I'm not touching you im not touching you im not touching youMekstizzle wrote:
From what I've read it was the South Koreans who provoked it by having arty exercises really close to the border, so it wasn't an unprovoked massive barrage as everyone seems to beleive...there's abit of background to it...
BAM!
WTF MAN!
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Did I say "ignore?"Kmar wrote:
I don't get this. We're supposed to ignore this because it happens all the time? No rational person is saying bomb them.. but I think NK and SK are the ones that need to calm down, before they wake up the parents and everyone is unhappy.FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
No.
I said, "Calm the fuck down." Too damn much hyperbole about going to war over something that happens all the time.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
NK is just like a virgin cocktease. she'll show you her tits, let you finger her for a while and when you want to fucky fucky five dorra, shes like im not ready yet and a year down the road she does the same shit. now shes a 40 year old slag that no one really gives a shit about.FEOS wrote:
Did I say "ignore?"Kmar wrote:
I don't get this. We're supposed to ignore this because it happens all the time? No rational person is saying bomb them.. but I think NK and SK are the ones that need to calm down, before they wake up the parents and everyone is unhappy.FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
No.
I said, "Calm the fuck down." Too damn much hyperbole about going to war over something that happens all the time.
Agreed.FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
Nothing will happen. NK's just stirring the pot. SHOULD SK do something? Probably. Will they? Highly doubtful.
You didn't say much besides insulting our knowledge of the history between these two countries. We were discussing a hypothtical situation. Why? Because a few shells here and there truly is boring. But thanx for calming us down daddy.FEOS wrote:
Did I say "ignore?"Kmar wrote:
I don't get this. We're supposed to ignore this because it happens all the time? No rational person is saying bomb them.. but I think NK and SK are the ones that need to calm down, before they wake up the parents and everyone is unhappy.FEOS wrote:
Tempest in a teapot.
nK just sank a South Korean frigate, ffs! And nobody did a damn thing. That's a damn sight more provocative than lobbing some arty and killing a single Marine.
Yay for no short term memory.
The two Koreas do this shit all the fucking time. Calm the fuck down, people.
No.
I said, "Calm the fuck down." Too damn much hyperbole about going to war over something that happens all the time.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Ok.Cybargs wrote:
NK is just like a virgin cocktease. she'll show you her tits, let you finger her for a while and when you want to fucky fucky five dorra, shes like im not ready yet and a year down the road she does the same shit. now shes a 40 year old slag that no one really gives a shit about.FEOS wrote:
Did I say "ignore?"Kmar wrote:
I don't get this. We're supposed to ignore this because it happens all the time? No rational person is saying bomb them.. but I think NK and SK are the ones that need to calm down, before they wake up the parents and everyone is unhappy.
No.
I said, "Calm the fuck down." Too damn much hyperbole about going to war over something that happens all the time.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat