Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina
What was a very bad day for Ahmed Ghailani, now a convicted felon likely to spend many years in a supermax prison, was also, because of the super-charged politics surrounding Guantanamo Bay, a pretty bad day for the Obama administration.

To be sure, the 36-year-old Tanzanian was convicted Wednesday of one count of conspiracy in federal court in New York. In addition, Ghailani could well serve life in prison for his role in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa by al-Qaeda. And it's at least debatable whether the outcome would have been different in a military commission in Cuba.

But the political reality is that the prospect of a tough sentence for conspiracy to destroy U.S. property by fire or explosives was largely swallowed up by a stunning verdict in which Ghailani was acquitted of 284 counts, including all 224 murder counts.


...

On the Senate floor Thursday, Republican Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) said the president should offer assurances that "terrorists will be tried from now on in the military commission system that was established for this very purpose at the secure facility at Guantanamo Bay, or detained indefinitely, if they cannot be tried without jeopardizing national security."

Senior administration officials expressed frustration with the Republican response to the Ghailani case, saying the verdict changed nothing about the legal viability of civilian courts to handle terrorist cases. "Ghailani is an unfortunate addition to a long-running saga of politicization and outright distortion of this issue," one official said.

Had the jury found Ghailani not guilty on all counts, as at least seems possible now, it could have resulted in the extraordinary spectacle of the Obama administration ignoring the judgment of a jury of ordinary Americans and returning Ghailani to military custody and possibly his old cell at Guantanamo Bay's Camp 7 detention center. That is a scenario also likely to temper judgments about proceeding with other civilian trials.

At the Justice Department, spokesman Matthew Miller said "one of the strengths of the criminal justice system is its ability to handle difficult cases.

"This was a difficult case in that there were questions about Ghailani's treatment during the previous administration" - such as the use of enhanced interrogation techniques - "that led to a key witness being excluded," he said.

The judge said the government only learned about that witness because of the CIA's questioning of Ghailani at a secret prison. It is unclear whether the witness would have been allowed to testify at a military commission.

Some leading Democrats and human rights advocates said the administration should still press the case for more federal trials of Guantanamo inmates, including Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the self-declared mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and his four co-conspirators, whose case is in semi-permanent abeyance.

Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), the chairman of the homeland security subcommittee on intelligence, noted that Ghailani is facing a sentence stiffer than all but one meted out by military commissions.

"More than 200 years of American jurisprudence and a clear track record of success should not be thrown out the window or falsely characterized for political advantage," Harman said. "The Obama administration needs to push back."

Denis McDonough, the deputy national security adviser, said the White House remains committed to using all available venues for trying terrorism suspects. And in the past year, with little controversy, the administration has tried numerous terrorism suspects, including individuals who planned attacks on Times Square and the New York subway system.

But the legacy cases at Guantanamo Bay have become wrapped up in a strident public debate about Obama's national security policies. Administration officials concede that Congress, by denying funding and legal authority, has blocked efforts to close the military prison, while hostile public sentiment has thwarted a series of federal trials the administration had hoped to stage.

Privately, administration officials say they are leaning toward holding detainees such as Mohammed indefinitely while proceeding with a select number of military commissions. Federal trials, if they happen, might have to await a second Obama term, if there is one.

Jack Goldsmith, a former Justice Department official in the George W. Bush administration and now a Harvard Law School professor, wrote on the Lawfare blog Thursday that the military detention option is a "tradition-sanctioned, congressionally authorized, court-blessed, resource-saving, security-preserving, easier-than-trial option for long-term terrorist incapacitation. And this morning it looks more appealing than ever."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 06625.html

There seems to be a strange juxtaposition of priorities in both the public opinion and our government regarding how we should try Gitmo detainees.  Understandably, people want justice to be served, but it seems as if emphasizing holding a fair trial for suspects is a lesser concern to many than in obtaining the harshest convictions.

On the other hand, it really makes me wonder if Ghailani avoided 284 counts due to actual innocence of the charges presented or due to abuses that were revealed in the Gitmo system.

I guess the question becomes...   Should we try terror suspects like Ghailani in civilian courts under the presumption that they will provide a fairer trial, or are the problems with the operation of Gitmo so severe that only military trials should be used so as to focus more on convicting dangerous individuals that are guilty of the charges regardless of their treatment in detention?

Also, is this focus on convictions more important than the underlying concerns of human rights abuses connected to Gitmo?

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-11-19 08:51:38)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5634|London, England
They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
Is that really true of asymmetrical warfare though?  I figured that logic only works during a conventional war.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5634|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
Is that really true of asymmetrical warfare though?  I figured that logic only works during a conventional war.
Why would it be any different? Ok, so it's not a formal declared war, what gives the US policing jurisdiction in foreign countries? If they're going to be treated as criminals, please show the judicial precedent that allows us to act as police in other nations. The closest I can think of is Black Jack Pershings invasion of Mexico to go after Pancho Villa and there are all sorts of things wrong with that example.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
Is that really true of asymmetrical warfare though?  I figured that logic only works during a conventional war.
Why would it be any different? Ok, so it's not a formal declared war, what gives the US policing jurisdiction in foreign countries? If they're going to be treated as criminals, please show the judicial precedent that allows us to act as police in other nations. The closest I can think of is Black Jack Pershings invasion of Mexico to go after Pancho Villa and there are all sorts of things wrong with that example.
Fair enough, but my main concern was that "hostilities" never end in a War on Terror.  If we held these suspects until they ended, these people would die in Gitmo before ever making it to trial.

Since what we are doing is essentially an extended policing action in Iraq and Afghanistan, the "war" is ongoing.  Granted, I do support getting the fuck out now, but we know that's not gonna happen.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6406|North Tonawanda, NY
Don't POWs need to be uniformed in order to get protections?  You can't have it both ways--wear a uniform and be identifiable, but also get POW protections...or don't and don't expect the protections.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,981|6908|949

It's interesting that this case is used as a barometer for why we shouldn't try terror suspects in criminal courts as opposed to military tribunals - the guy is going to jail for 25-to-life...so why the outcry?  Has anyone read the specifics of the case?  How strong were the 200+ charges he was acquitted for?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It's interesting that this case is used as a barometer for why we shouldn't try terror suspects in criminal courts as opposed to military tribunals - the guy is going to jail for 25-to-life...so why the outcry?  Has anyone read the specifics of the case?  How strong were the 200+ charges he was acquitted for?
True...  it does seem as if the lust for revenge is compromising the logic of several right wingers.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time this has happened.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5634|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

It's interesting that this case is used as a barometer for why we shouldn't try terror suspects in criminal courts as opposed to military tribunals - the guy is going to jail for 25-to-life...so why the outcry?  Has anyone read the specifics of the case?  How strong were the 200+ charges he was acquitted for?
A lot of the corroborating evidence was thrown out because it was induced by torture. This is why right wingers are crying for military tribunals. They don't care if innocent people are put away, they simply want trophies.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX
I'd say its a bad day for the Bush admin, not so much Obama.

and
A lot of the corroborating evidence was thrown out because it was induced by torture. This is why right wingers are crying for military tribunals. They don't care if innocent people are put away, they simply want trophies.
Never mind that this sort of thing strengthens the terrorists, not makes them weaker either.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6687|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
Is that really true of asymmetrical warfare though?  I figured that logic only works during a conventional war.
Type of warfare is irrelevant. Of course, the behavior of the belligerents impacts their protections under the Geneva Conventions. But overall, G@lt is spot on. If they are treated in accordance with the GC, they are held until hostilities are over, at which point they are either tried or repatriated.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
Is that really true of asymmetrical warfare though?  I figured that logic only works during a conventional war.
Type of warfare is irrelevant. Of course, the behavior of the belligerents impacts their protections under the Geneva Conventions. But overall, G@lt is spot on. If they are treated in accordance with the GC, they are held until hostilities are over, at which point they are either tried or repatriated.
Well, I guess keeping Gitmo open is inevitable then.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX
Why?
The 'war' is over.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6687|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Why?
The 'war' is over.
No. It's not. Once "combat operations" are officially ended in Afghanistan (a la Iraq), then the war would be over....there.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX
Combat operations are over, theres a nice new govt installed, its policing now.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6687|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Combat operations are over, theres a nice new govt installed, its policing now.
No, they're not. If they were, it wouldn't be Operation Enduring Freedom any longer...just as it's no longer Operation Iraqi Freedom.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Combat operations are over, theres a nice new govt installed, its policing now.
No, they're not. If they were, it wouldn't be Operation Enduring Freedom any longer...just as it's no longer Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Which is a counter-insurgency op, not war.

The Taliban govt of Afghanistan is defeated, gone and replaced, there is no war.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-21 20:48:17)

Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6687|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Combat operations are over, theres a nice new govt installed, its policing now.
No, they're not. If they were, it wouldn't be Operation Enduring Freedom any longer...just as it's no longer Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Which is a counter-insurgency op, not war.

The Taliban govt of Afghanistan is defeated, gone and replaced, there is no war.
Counterinsurgency is warfare, brainiac.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX
Warfare, but not a fully fledged war.

Why not leave it to the Afghan govt? I'm sure they'll do fine.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6687|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Warfare, but not a fully fledged war.

Why not leave it to the Afghan govt? I'm sure they'll do fine.
That's the point, innit? To get them to a point where it can be left to them. To leave it to them before they are able to take it on puts them back in the same situation Afghanistan was in in 1989. And that would be stupid.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6681|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Warfare, but not a fully fledged war.

Why not leave it to the Afghan govt? I'm sure they'll do fine.
That's the point, innit? To get them to a point where it can be left to them. To leave it to them before they are able to take it on puts them back in the same situation Afghanistan was in in 1989. And that would be stupid.
Possibly, but it also means we'd get the chance to test a few new weapons on them in about 5 to 10 years all over again.

Periodic bombing is much cheaper than nation building.
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6631

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
not in uniform - tie to tree - offer blindfold - offer cigarette -
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5634|London, England

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
not in uniform - tie to tree - offer blindfold - offer cigarette -
Yeah ok.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6631

JohnG@lt wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
not in uniform - tie to tree - offer blindfold - offer cigarette -
Yeah ok.
SOP For 200 years, Works well. Ask the Werewolves.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6382|eXtreme to the maX

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They shouldn't have been given trials in the first place. They're POWs. POWs don't get a trial, they get held until hostilities cease.
not in uniform - tie to tree - offer blindfold - offer cigarette -
Same for soldiers participating in illegal wars.

"I was only obeying orders" is not a defence.
Fuck Israel

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