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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

On the miniscule possibility that the EU will dissolve without any regional forum replacing some of its functions, the basic prerequisite would be that we have to throw all sense and logic to the wind. You have no idea in how many ways EU-wide policies and legislation are tied up in daily life. They're part of every industry from telecom to food supply and logistics, to economic policy etc. The easiest route, Dilbert, would be to maintain or reincorporate some of those arrangements in a new institution. A total collapse to pre-WW2 politics is like a return to the dark ages and a surefire way to repeat the 20th century. But oh well I guess 'we can just u know cooperate', real big brain stuff there.
America and China seem to be able to trade without 50,000 apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes.

Its not easy but its also not impossible.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176

Larssen wrote:

I'd like to think that most people with a modicum of intelligence can see that the european system of nation states is unravelling before our eyes in a world of global trade, movement of people and exchange of information/ideas. The structures we have are untenable and only kept alive through international organisations, primarily the EU and NATO.
so we should surrender our sovereignties and, arguably, our financial futures to internationalist bankers and their technocrat administrator friends?

K

as i've said before, i've got no problem with arguments for supra-national organizations, indeed i do see the need for blocs of power and influence if we are to keep up with the huge might of china and co. but those organizations could be ran for the benefit of their populations, rather than goldman sachs' board.

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-10 02:53:21)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
EU = internationalist bankers and their technocrat administrator friends

No-EU = internationalist bankers and their technocrat administrator friends

We need a third path not involving Goldman Sachs

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-08-10 02:54:14)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
yes, it's no accident that in our current moment ('late capitalist', if you like), the end of the world seems more likely than a practicable alternative.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
Hopefully Putin is as nice as Shahter says he is and we can let him fix it.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
the EU's bureaucratic apparatus could just as easily be turned towards a different ideological end, if the group had the werewithal. from austerity to quantitative easing/stimulus packages -- it's very much a 'choose your macroeconomic theory' scenario.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
So on the one hand many of our politicians and powerful people are slaves to the neo-liberal elite, on the other a good number are Russian and Chinese fifth-columnists.

What a time to be a alive.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+35|612

uziq wrote:

as i've said before, i've got no problem with arguments for supra-national organizations, indeed i do see the need for blocs of power and influence if we are to keep up with the huge might of china and co. but those organizations could be ran for the benefit of their populations, rather than goldman sachs' board.
I'm glad we agree.
uziq
Member
+326|2176
i'm less amenable to the idea that we secretly have a 'fifth column' of sino- and russophiles. i just think the west has been beholden to a very faulty ideology for the last 30-40 years, a long project that hasn't paid off, has repeatedly failed the majority, in fact, and the established interests are having a hard time giving up the ghost.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the EU's bureaucratic apparatus could just as easily be turned towards a different ideological end, if the group had the werewithal. from austerity to quantitative easing/stimulus packages -- it's very much a 'choose your macroeconomic theory' scenario.
Quantitative easing/stimulus packages are the neo-liberal plan to deflate the poor. Its not a long-term win.

'Austerity' should be the normal, ie spend what you have and borrow what you reasonably can in an emergency.

Not borrow and spend like a sailor on shore-leave during the good times.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+35|612

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

On the miniscule possibility that the EU will dissolve without any regional forum replacing some of its functions, the basic prerequisite would be that we have to throw all sense and logic to the wind. You have no idea in how many ways EU-wide policies and legislation are tied up in daily life. They're part of every industry from telecom to food supply and logistics, to economic policy etc. The easiest route, Dilbert, would be to maintain or reincorporate some of those arrangements in a new institution. A total collapse to pre-WW2 politics is like a return to the dark ages and a surefire way to repeat the 20th century. But oh well I guess 'we can just u know cooperate', real big brain stuff there.
America and China seem to be able to trade without 50,000 apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes.

Its not easy but its also not impossible.
The enormity of the EU is directly related to the individual member states' demand to remain in control. There's tons of working groups and committees in which every member state has a representative. So take your average bureaucracy and multiply by 28.

Also please don't compare the united states and china to a country like denmark or greece. These countries in themselves are like supranational organisations in a sense.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-08-10 03:03:44)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i'm less amenable to the idea that we secretly have a 'fifth column' of sino- and russophiles. i just think the west has been beholden to a very faulty ideology for the last 30-40 years, a long project that hasn't paid off, has repeatedly failed the majority, in fact, and the established interests are having a hard time giving up the ghost.
There are plenty of people in the UK cosying up to Russian oligarchs no?

Same for the CCP here.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
it's time to get back to real value consisting in labour and labour power, and not speculation. we live in fake-numbers postmodernism, and the people who own the algorithms extract all of the money out of the system and park it in equally speculative, phantasmal high-rise glass boxes lining central park. i want to see a stevedore wrestle a bitcoin miner.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

On the miniscule possibility that the EU will dissolve without any regional forum replacing some of its functions, the basic prerequisite would be that we have to throw all sense and logic to the wind. You have no idea in how many ways EU-wide policies and legislation are tied up in daily life. They're part of every industry from telecom to food supply and logistics, to economic policy etc. The easiest route, Dilbert, would be to maintain or reincorporate some of those arrangements in a new institution. A total collapse to pre-WW2 politics is like a return to the dark ages and a surefire way to repeat the 20th century. But oh well I guess 'we can just u know cooperate', real big brain stuff there.
America and China seem to be able to trade without 50,000 apparatchiks pulling strings behind the scenes.

Its not easy but its also not impossible.
The enormity of the EU is directly related to the individual member states' demand to remain in control. There's tons of working groups and committees in which every member state has a representative. So take your average bureaucracy and multiply by 28.
Yes I know, my father was part of it, he managed to do literally nothing for a good decade.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

i'm less amenable to the idea that we secretly have a 'fifth column' of sino- and russophiles. i just think the west has been beholden to a very faulty ideology for the last 30-40 years, a long project that hasn't paid off, has repeatedly failed the majority, in fact, and the established interests are having a hard time giving up the ghost.
There are plenty of people in the UK cosying up to Russian oligarchs no?

Same for the CCP here.
sure, they're buying influence and power, but mostly with the aim to wash their own cash and gain legitimacy outside of russia. i don't think they're acting on behalf of putin, or want to see the west be crushed. they rather like their lives of privacy and unimpeded wealth in surrey and mayfair, methinks.
uziq
Member
+326|2176

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

the EU's bureaucratic apparatus could just as easily be turned towards a different ideological end, if the group had the werewithal. from austerity to quantitative easing/stimulus packages -- it's very much a 'choose your macroeconomic theory' scenario.
Quantitative easing/stimulus packages are the neo-liberal plan to deflate the poor. Its not a long-term win.

'Austerity' should be the normal, ie spend what you have and borrow what you reasonably can in an emergency.

Not borrow and spend like a sailor on shore-leave during the good times.
it depends what sort of stimulus you're opting for, no? giving workers a good amount of cash to stay afloat and spend in local businesses/economy during a pandemic seems like a better option than throwing it at the top corporations and making elon musk $3 billion richer overnight.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
Yeah of course. Unless you're hoping for the trickle-down effect to deliver.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
considering we've been waiting for that effect since about 1982, i think we can safely assume it's a bit of a tall order.
Larssen
Member
+35|612

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

the EU's bureaucratic apparatus could just as easily be turned towards a different ideological end, if the group had the werewithal. from austerity to quantitative easing/stimulus packages -- it's very much a 'choose your macroeconomic theory' scenario.
Quantitative easing/stimulus packages are the neo-liberal plan to deflate the poor. Its not a long-term win.

'Austerity' should be the normal, ie spend what you have and borrow what you reasonably can in an emergency.

Not borrow and spend like a sailor on shore-leave during the good times.
it depends what sort of stimulus you're opting for, no? giving workers a good amount of cash to stay afloat and spend in local businesses/economy during a pandemic seems like a better option than throwing it at the top corporations and making elon musk $3 billion richer overnight.
But that is what many countries have opted to do now. A large portion of financial aid is directed towards struggling smaller businesses. Not enough I think, but it is happening. Unlike during the 2009 recession.
Larssen
Member
+35|612

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes I know, my father was part of it, he managed to do literally nothing for a good decade.
Must've pained him to have raised such a racist kid.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes I know, my father was part of it, he managed to do literally nothing for a good decade.
Must've pained him to have raised such a racist kid.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm the least racist person I know
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

considering we've been waiting for that effect since about 1982, i think we can safely assume it's a bit of a tall order.
I'm sure the 'trickledown effect' was invented by a gay man fond of tromboning. Someone should tell Jay.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+35|612

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes I know, my father was part of it, he managed to do literally nothing for a good decade.
Must've pained him to have raised such a racist kid.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm the least racist person I know
One of the most racist I know.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
I'm guessing you don't know many people.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
i think the conservatism of ex-pats/aussies is probably more severe than in the average population. and you seem to exist in some sort of generational crack. i can't imagine even most of your peers in the 70s and 80s were as casually racist as you were. you were probably a hateful dweeb at university and you've only become more fearful and paranoid as you've fallen more out of sync with your times.

it's very sad that you don't want to read or do any research to even change your ignorance. you are the dictionary definition of a bigot on that score, i'm afraid: badly wanting knowledge and doubled-down in your uninformed assertions.

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