Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
well following the political CLUSTERFUCK that happened earlier today, with the open betrayal of our coalition Liberal Democrat party and their complete u-turn on educational policy... i feel it's time a discussion was had on the matter. i am particularly interested in hearing our american member's opinions, seeing as they have a vastly diverse and disproportionate state/private arrangement with colleges. what do you people think of unlimited tuition fees? limited tuition fees?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 … es-of-9000
[video in link]

Students could pay up to £9,000 a year in tuition fees in changes that could be introduced as soon as 2012, ministers said today.

The universities minister, David Willetts, has announced proposals to raise the "basic threshold" for tuition fees to £6,000, with institutions able to charge up to £9,000 in "exceptional circumstances". No publicly funded university would be able to charge more.
for the record, current tuition fees are capped, nation-wide, at around £3,300/year. a large part of the student's education and university funding is provided by the government, which standardises the entire process. the loans given to students are also given from a partly state-sponsored company that operates to strict government guidelines, so no students get into the sharkish pockets of poor bank-loan policies or ridiculous interest rates. in my opinion, this is the eroding of the PRINCIPLE of universal rights and opportunities. allowing a 'tariff' of fees, with elite institutions being able to charge more or 'exceptional' prices, basically sets us up for a form of privilege-discrimination.

the cutting of all government funding will also severely affect bursary and scholarship funds, so the idea of 'equal access' to higher-education will most definitely be harmed by this change. one thing i do not want to see for my nation's education system is a ranking of elitist exclusivity in which top universities can charge harvard-yale prices. we ALREADY have such a system of unfair discrimination in our public-school system, where people are provided with much better education and facility standards because of personal wealth, not ability. i have seen a lot of numbskulls get into average-universities, because of their school and not their brain.

thoughts?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
Are your professors unionized?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
as far as i know there are 1-2 major unions of teachers and lecturers in the united kingdom... i'm not sure they hold much lobbying power. similarly the national union of students had zero effect on this proposal, DESPITE mass protests. the thing that i find most democratically insulting about this proposal is that the liberal democrats achieved their coalition-election based on a HUGE swing in the normally-apathetic student voting demographic. why? because nick clegg (liberal democrat leader) openly and publicly campaigned, and stated in his party MANIFESTO, that they were completely opposed to any raising of the tuition fees within the united kingdom.

that was essentially the student-bodies biggest fear and that was consequently (partly) why the lib dems achieved such a voting 'success'.

it's an absolute insult to hear a liberal democrat education minister propose something that spits in the fact of their supporters. an absolute betrayal of faith. it's like voting to elect barack obama on the public health-care proposal, only for him to turn around and hand the entire damn system over to a monopolized private corporation.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
I'm going to assume they are. There's nothing really wrong with what your country is doing, even if it is going to hurt in the short term. Where the school system had an open checkbook and direct access to government funding, it now has to push through cost increases at the expense of the students, where they will run into rioting a la California.

The only thing I would be wary of long term is if the government starts pushing for subsidies for poorer students. You'll end up in the same situation we are here where tuition rises not because of real need but because they know that they can raise tuition as high as they want and they'll still have the students necessary to function. Why? Because it's not the students eating the increase, but the government. Harvard and Yale could offer the same education at a greatly reduced cost but they don't have to. Their price tag adds to their exclusivity and they bring in enough lower income students on the government dole to offset the loss of the middle class students that are priced out. Our system as designed caters to the rich and the poor. The middle are fucked.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

Uzique wrote:

as far as i know there are 1-2 major unions of teachers and lecturers in the united kingdom... i'm not sure they hold much lobbying power. similarly the national union of students had zero effect on this proposal, DESPITE mass protests. the thing that i find most democratically insulting about this proposal is that the liberal democrats achieved their coalition-election based on a HUGE swing in the normally-apathetic student voting demographic. why? because nick clegg (liberal democrat leader) openly and publicly campaigned, and stated in his party MANIFESTO, that they were completely opposed to any raising of the tuition fees within the united kingdom.

that was essentially the student-bodies biggest fear and that was consequently (partly) why the lib dems achieved such a voting 'success'.

it's an absolute insult to hear a liberal democrat education minister propose something that spits in the fact of their supporters. an absolute betrayal of faith. it's like voting to elect barack obama on the public health-care proposal, only for him to turn around and hand the entire damn system over to a monopolized private corporation.
Well, $14k a year for education is still pretty damn cheap. Can easily pay off loans like that after college.

Edit - Also, economic reality has trumped campaign promises. Surely you can see that that is a good thing. Fiscal sanity is required if you're going to prevent yourselves turning into Greece.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-11-03 10:57:04)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
it's a principle though, galt... i'm not particularly bothered about the cost... nor are many other middle-class families.

BUT the university system in our country (flawed as it is, and stratified by elitism and disparity in education quality) has, to its credit, had the amazing strength of superb accessibility and opportunity in recent years. before the labourites really socialised the whole thing, university here was an elite preserve of the rich and privileged. nowadays i see many people that, perhaps, aren't 'academic' per se, but are still finding places to study certain vocational and practical subjects at lower-entry requirement universities. the quality and 'worth' of their education aside, the main principle to celebrate in my opinion is the fact they pay the SAME as the classics buff at oxford. a guy going to an ex-polytechnic to study 'film studies' or 'sports science' pays the exact same cost, financially, as the toff that skipped through private school and went on to an elite old institution.

that's an extremely applaudable and democratic approach to education... which will now be lost.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
It also essentially removed all responsibility from parents to provide for their kids. You can only go down that road so far before it bites you in the ass.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
The real problem I see with the situation is that the tax money taken in by your government to offset the cost of school is undoubtedly not going to be returned to the taxpayer. Shitty situation that is.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6382|'Murka

Also removes personal responsibility, to some degree.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441

JohnG@lt wrote:

The real problem I see with the situation is that the tax money taken in by your government to offset the cost of school is undoubtedly not going to be returned to the taxpayer. Shitty situation that is.
forget that, the INCREASED money taken from tuition fees isn't even going to be returned proportionately to the UNIVERSITY system

hence people will have less bursary/scholarship funding to get into universities that will be more cash-strapped with shittier libraries/facilities

it's a fucking farce

also: how does a standardised, flat-rate tuition fee take away 'personal responsibility'? are you saying a smart and capable person should somehow take more of a 'responsibility' for their capability because the top-tier university they want to go to costs 2x as much? that's a retarded piece of logic. our future intellectuals and thinkers should pay doubly out the ass to do a course at a high-paying university, which will result in a lower-paying job than the numbskull who went to shit-uni x to get a business studies degree for half the tuition cost. what?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6382|'Murka

Just as it removes the responsibility from the parents to provide for their children's education, it removes the same responsibility from the individual. It is not the state's responsibility--it is an individual responsibility.

A basic difference in perspective between the UK/Europe and the US in that regard.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina
Limiting public tuition fees is a good thing.

Private tuition fees should be whatever the market bears.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6620

Uzique wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

The real problem I see with the situation is that the tax money taken in by your government to offset the cost of school is undoubtedly not going to be returned to the taxpayer. Shitty situation that is.
forget that, the INCREASED money taken from tuition fees isn't even going to be returned proportionately to the UNIVERSITY system
That's the main issue I have with it.

Other than that, I feel people are making too much of a fuss about it. I'm sure this isn't the case at RHUL, but the majority of my friends pay their tuition via loans, and I think that if you want to go somewhere you'd go there, does it really matter if you're paying 50 quid a month over 10 years or 20?
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
i guess i am fiercely socialist when it comes to universal education rights.

education is the bedrock of a nation's social and class construction... if people don't have an egalitarian access, then stratification will occur later on
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6508|Long Island, New York

Turquoise wrote:

Limiting public tuition fees is a good thing.

Private tuition fees should be whatever the market bears.
This.

Here, SUNY schools run about $18-20K roughly. My private school is about $52K (mostly due to location). And honestly, I think it's fair. Most private schools nowadays - due to the economy - hand out scholarships like candy.

Very possible to afford a state, public school here. Even on loans. And if you're low income, there's Pell grants and TAP.

Last edited by Poseidon (2010-11-03 11:48:30)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
grants and scholarships are going to be adversely affected by this, though.

and there are certain groups of people that will not be able to afford the 3x increased cost within any reasonable pay-back time
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

i guess i am fiercely socialist when it comes to universal education rights.

education is the bedrock of a nation's social and class construction... if people don't have an egalitarian access, then stratification will occur later on
It already does.  As much as I like Sweden's system, it wouldn't work in most countries.  A certain amount of stratification is inevitable -- it's best to just focus on making sure that everyone has access to public institutions of learning.

What private schools do is up to their business model and the market.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6101|North Tonawanda, NY

FEOS wrote:

Just as it removes the responsibility from the parents to provide for their children's education, it removes the same responsibility from the individual. It is not the state's responsibility--it is an individual responsibility.

A basic difference in perspective between the UK/Europe and the US in that regard.
My parents didn't pay for my education...how many middleclass families can afford to send 4 kids to college all within 5 years?
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6703|St. Andrews / Oslo

Uzique wrote:

the main principle to celebrate in my opinion is the fact they pay the SAME as the classics buff at oxford. a guy going to an ex-polytechnic to study 'film studies' or 'sports science' pays the exact same cost, financially, as the toff that skipped through private school and went on to an elite old institution.

that's an extremely applaudable and democratic approach to education... which will now be lost.
I definitely agree with this.

In Norway the public universities are free and work quite well. I'd say the level at Norwegian uni's is surprisingly high considering the size of the population and the fact that they are 100% state-funded, and I love the fact that private "pay for enterence" uni's are looked down upon by the majority of Norwegian academics - so much so that they'll settle for a lower-paying job at the public uni's.

However, being outside of the EU, we pay bucket-loads of tuition if we study abroad.

We do get student loans and scholarships from the government that cover everything, and I have no problem paying the £12k pr. year tuition + accommodation + plenty of spending money without any support from my parents.

As far as I've understood (correct me if I'm wrong), this would work just like the proposed English system - I pay nothing out of my own pocket, everything is from a loan that I don't have to start to pay before I get a permanent job with a decent income.

Now, I have no problem at all with this - I'm at a superior university to anything in Norway, and when I get a good job, paying a small part of my salary for this experience shouldn't be a problem.

However, there are several of my friends who can get into better schools than what they get in Norway (at a fraction of the price I'm paying), but don't do it because it's more expensive - "why should I? I end up with the same degree anyway.."

..so no matter how much you "disguise" the costs with loans and "no up-front payments", the differences are still there and people care. I'm not too worried about people from a poor background in this case (as they should be able to pay without any parental support), but the fact that someone will choose a worse education "because it's cheaper" saddens me.


..I also think the differences you guys (UK) seem to have between public/private schools already from the age of 6 is awful

..I also think that Nick Clegg just fucked up massively - seems to be hated everywhere, for good reason.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
wah1188
You orrible caaaaaaan't
+321|6431|UK

Uzique wrote:

well following the political CLUSTERFUCK that happened earlier today, with the open betrayal of our coalition Liberal Democrat party and their complete u-turn on educational policy... i feel it's time a discussion was had on the matter. i am particularly interested in hearing our american member's opinions, seeing as they have a vastly diverse and disproportionate state/private arrangement with colleges. what do you people think of unlimited tuition fees? limited tuition fees?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/201 … es-of-9000
[video in link]

Students could pay up to £9,000 a year in tuition fees in changes that could be introduced as soon as 2012, ministers said today.

The universities minister, David Willetts, has announced proposals to raise the "basic threshold" for tuition fees to £6,000, with institutions able to charge up to £9,000 in "exceptional circumstances". No publicly funded university would be able to charge more.
for the record, current tuition fees are capped, nation-wide, at around £3,300/year. a large part of the student's education and university funding is provided by the government, which standardises the entire process. the loans given to students are also given from a partly state-sponsored company that operates to strict government guidelines, so no students get into the sharkish pockets of poor bank-loan policies or ridiculous interest rates. in my opinion, this is the eroding of the PRINCIPLE of universal rights and opportunities. allowing a 'tariff' of fees, with elite institutions being able to charge more or 'exceptional' prices, basically sets us up for a form of privilege-discrimination.

the cutting of all government funding will also severely affect bursary and scholarship funds, so the idea of 'equal access' to higher-education will most definitely be harmed by this change. one thing i do not want to see for my nation's education system is a ranking of elitist exclusivity in which top universities can charge harvard-yale prices. we ALREADY have such a system of unfair discrimination in our public-school system, where people are provided with much better education and facility standards because of personal wealth, not ability. i have seen a lot of numbskulls get into average-universities, because of their school and not their brain.

thoughts?
For someone from quite a privileged background you so a lot of concern for this. I agree it's actually disgusting and very short-sighted in terms of economic development. I always generally thought our education system was great because of the loans and slightly acceptable fees. I mean people that really excelled from poor backgrounds could still get into uni at a cost but nothing too ridiculous. Jesus £9000 a year obviously people are going to say oh yes they are just raising the cap doesn't meant the universities will charge at the cap. If you look at it now all universities charge at the absolute maximum so most like £9000 will be the going rate.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6441
sorry i guess because i went to a public school and was born into the family i was i should just be laughing at the concept of universal education rights and should be extremely scornful for the proletariat and their whimsical notions of democracy. it's bad news for rich and poor people. even if i didn't care about the end-costs, it stands for a financial reform of the entire higher-education structure. it's basically sacrificing the funding and quality of our universities to bail out an economic fuck-up that had absolutely nothing to do with the academics.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
wah1188
You orrible caaaaaaan't
+321|6431|UK

Uzique wrote:

sorry i guess because i went to a public school and was born into the family i was i should just be laughing at the concept of universal education rights and should be extremely scornful for the proletariat and their whimsical notions of democracy. it's bad news for rich and poor people. even if i didn't care about the end-costs, it stands for a financial reform of the entire higher-education structure. it's basically sacrificing the funding and quality of our universities to bail out an economic fuck-up that had absolutely nothing to do with the academics.
I wasn't having a go uzi! David Cameron is a potato faced idiot I still wake up thinking I'm in a dream that Cameron is the PM and Boris Johnson is the Mayor of London. I mean the initial £3000 top-up fees were disgusting but this is just horrible.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

sorry i guess because i went to a public school and was born into the family i was i should just be laughing at the concept of universal education rights and should be extremely scornful for the proletariat and their whimsical notions of democracy. it's bad news for rich and poor people. even if i didn't care about the end-costs, it stands for a financial reform of the entire higher-education structure. it's basically sacrificing the funding and quality of our universities to bail out an economic fuck-up that had absolutely nothing to do with the academics.
Something has to give.  Every system is eyeing austerity measures now, as they should be.

Now, admittedly, education is probably one of the last things you want to reduce in budgets during a recession, but we've experienced some of that over here as well.
wah1188
You orrible caaaaaaan't
+321|6431|UK

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

sorry i guess because i went to a public school and was born into the family i was i should just be laughing at the concept of universal education rights and should be extremely scornful for the proletariat and their whimsical notions of democracy. it's bad news for rich and poor people. even if i didn't care about the end-costs, it stands for a financial reform of the entire higher-education structure. it's basically sacrificing the funding and quality of our universities to bail out an economic fuck-up that had absolutely nothing to do with the academics.
Something has to give.  Every system is eyeing austerity measures now, as they should be.

Now, admittedly, education is probably one of the last things you want to reduce in budgets during a recession, but we've experienced some of that over here as well.
Obviously you are right in some aspects but it should be the last thing to be cut. It's just plain stupidity if I'm being honest we are going back to an elitist culture. I think there are already enough barriers for people to enter higher education as it is. Add that to the fact that the general workforce will be less skilled as less people will attend university. There's already enough stupid cunts in this country as it is!
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6471|so randum
I quit my QuB course at the end of last term for personal reasons, but have it in writing from the University that when I'm ready to go back there will be a place for me. Can i really afford to start another 3-4 year course @ 9k p/a? No.

tldr fuck nick clegg
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