oh right yeah thanks for just quoting me and repeating verbatim
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Hrundi makes a good point that, at one point, exceptionalism actually worked to a degree. It was even valid during the early part of the Cold War. But as others have said, times change, and so must America in general.EVieira wrote:
According to the wikipedia: American exceptionalism is an American theory that the United States occupies a special role among the nations of the world in terms of its national ethos, political and religious institutions, and its being built by immigrants. The roots of the position have been dated back to 1630 with John Winthrop's "City Upon a Hill",[1] although some scholars attribute it to a passage of Alexis de Tocqueville,[2] who argued that the United States held a special place among nations because it was the first working representative democracy.Uzique wrote:
american exceptionalism is considered a legitimate social and political ideology.Ticia wrote:
Exceptionalism? Talk about a sophistic overstate
Just because the USA has some originality, when it comes to political thought and history they have always been heavily influenced by European ideas and experience. Nothing to be proud but nothing to be ashamed of either.
he's not coining a new phrase there.
it stems from winthrop's "city on a hill" puritan ideal and has been traced through history in one form or another since then
To me its a load of egocentric megalomaniac bullshit...
Last edited by Turquoise (2010-11-03 11:41:36)
The US is much like Europe in many aspects, whether americans like to or not. And as being built by imigrants, so has been most of the New World. Brazil is a "melting pot" just as much as the US (maybe even more diverse).Turquoise wrote:
Hrundi makes a good point that, at one point, exceptionalism actually worked to a degree. It was even valid during the early part of the Cold War. But as others have said, times change, and so must America in general.EVieira wrote:
According to the wikipedia: American exceptionalism is an American theory that the United States occupies a special role among the nations of the world in terms of its national ethos, political and religious institutions, and its being built by immigrants. The roots of the position have been dated back to 1630 with John Winthrop's "City Upon a Hill",[1] although some scholars attribute it to a passage of Alexis de Tocqueville,[2] who argued that the United States held a special place among nations because it was the first working representative democracy.Uzique wrote:
american exceptionalism is considered a legitimate social and political ideology.
he's not coining a new phrase there.
it stems from winthrop's "city on a hill" puritan ideal and has been traced through history in one form or another since then
To me its a load of egocentric megalomaniac bullshit...
The US is an exceptional place, but so is Germany and Japan.
China on the other hand has a unique goverment and economy, a mix of socialsm and capitalism that exists only there is unquestionably driving China to superpower status. Thats exceptional and unique in the world.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
i think you're taking the word 'exceptional' and making this a semantic or descriptive debate.
the 'exceptionalism' we're talking about here is a politically-acquired ideology that stems from a very particular set of idealisms and worldviews.
it's like discussing 'Liberals' in an american context - you can't steer the discussion in ways of 'liberal' attitudes. different terminologies.
the 'exceptionalism' we're talking about here is a politically-acquired ideology that stems from a very particular set of idealisms and worldviews.
it's like discussing 'Liberals' in an american context - you can't steer the discussion in ways of 'liberal' attitudes. different terminologies.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
What's interesting is that much of Europe seems to be reaching a point where the changes made by immigrants there are more significant than the changes made in the U.S. by them.EVieira wrote:
The US is much like Europe in many aspects, whether americans like to or not. And as being built by imigrants, so has been most of the New World. Brazil is a "melting pot" just as much as the US (maybe even more diverse).
The US is an exceptional place, but so is Germany and Japan.
China on the other hand has a unique goverment and economy, a mix of socialsm and capitalism that exists only there is unquestionably driving China to superpower status. Thats exceptional and unique in the world.
A large portion of the population growth of Europe is dependent on immigration -- even more than that of the U.S. So, it may be possible to say that Europe is now starting to follow our (that of the U.S, Brazil, and the rest of the Americas) model of social and economic evolution.
It kind of makes me wonder if the European notion of nationalism will begin to change from being culturally based to being based more around a general idea of secular humanism.
The root of American exceptionalism is that its exceptional, that it is unique, in the sense that nowhere else has this collection of political, religious and national ethos exist. My point is that this is not true, since almost all of those aspects of US are much like Europe and much of the western civilization.Uzique wrote:
i think you're taking the word 'exceptional' and making this a semantic or descriptive debate.
the 'exceptionalism' we're talking about here is a politically-acquired ideology that stems from a very particular set of idealisms and worldviews.
it's like discussing 'Liberals' in an american context - you can't steer the discussion in ways of 'liberal' attitudes. different terminologies.
When I cited Germany and Japan, its to exemplify that there are other exceptional countries. In some aspects, so is Brazil.
But American Exceptionalism evokes these aspects as a source of ultimate virtue in the American society and national ethos. The american society and ethos are flawed, just like everyone else's. While it can be argued that some world societies are more just and moral than others, the US would not be on top of the list.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
European nationalism is very strong and will likely not go down without some serious revolting. Angela Merkel recently cited that 'German Multiculturalism has failed, indicating that Germany's stance on immigration is robably going to take a turn for the worst.Turquoise wrote:
What's interesting is that much of Europe seems to be reaching a point where the changes made by immigrants there are more significant than the changes made in the U.S. by them.
A large portion of the population growth of Europe is dependent on immigration -- even more than that of the U.S. So, it may be possible to say that Europe is now starting to follow our (that of the U.S, Brazil, and the rest of the Americas) model of social and economic evolution.
It kind of makes me wonder if the European notion of nationalism will begin to change from being culturally based to being based more around a general idea of secular humanism.
Sarkozy deported all of the gipsies from France.
European nationalism is strong as ever.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Angela Merkel said that because her party told her she wasn't conservative enough, its just politics.
Of course Nationalism is alive, it always will be. But "strong as ever" it is not.
Of course Nationalism is alive, it always will be. But "strong as ever" it is not.
Ok, given European history, "strong as ever" is a bit too much. But its still very strong. Not there's anything wrong with that either...jord wrote:
Angela Merkel said that because her party told her she wasn't conservative enough, its just politics.
Of course Nationalism is alive, it always will be. But "strong as ever" it is not.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Well, admittedly, deporting Gypsies isn't a bad thing.EVieira wrote:
European nationalism is very strong and will likely not go down without some serious revolting. Angela Merkel recently cited that 'German Multiculturalism has failed, indicating that Germany's stance on immigration is robably going to take a turn for the worst.Turquoise wrote:
What's interesting is that much of Europe seems to be reaching a point where the changes made by immigrants there are more significant than the changes made in the U.S. by them.
A large portion of the population growth of Europe is dependent on immigration -- even more than that of the U.S. So, it may be possible to say that Europe is now starting to follow our (that of the U.S, Brazil, and the rest of the Americas) model of social and economic evolution.
It kind of makes me wonder if the European notion of nationalism will begin to change from being culturally based to being based more around a general idea of secular humanism.
Sarkozy deported all of the gipsies from France.
European nationalism is strong as ever.
Empty rhetoric, the US is one big intellectual and financial ponzi scheme with nationalist brainwashing thrown in.Turquoise wrote:
IAs the thread title suggests: Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
Fuck Israel
Normally, I would mock you for a statement like this, but honestly, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from.Dilbert_X wrote:
Empty rhetoric, the US is one big intellectual and financial ponzi scheme with nationalist brainwashing thrown in.Turquoise wrote:
IAs the thread title suggests: Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
Stop being so jealous, D_X. It's so obvious.Dilbert_X wrote:
Empty rhetoric, the US is one big intellectual and financial ponzi scheme with nationalist brainwashing thrown in.Turquoise wrote:
IAs the thread title suggests: Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
No dude. The root of America exceptionalism is exactly what Uzi stated - Winthrop's "city on a hill' - that we are to be a beacon that others aspire to be, that we are destined to set the guideline for how a society should function in the purest form, that we would be the society that others would compare themselves to. It's not that the founders aspired to be unique, or desired for a collection of disparate ideologies as an example of a 'free society'.EVieira wrote:
The root of American exceptionalism is that its exceptional, that it is unique, in the sense that nowhere else has this collection of political, religious and national ethos exist. My point is that this is not true, since almost all of those aspects of US are much like Europe and much of the western civilization.Uzique wrote:
i think you're taking the word 'exceptional' and making this a semantic or descriptive debate.
the 'exceptionalism' we're talking about here is a politically-acquired ideology that stems from a very particular set of idealisms and worldviews.
it's like discussing 'Liberals' in an american context - you can't steer the discussion in ways of 'liberal' attitudes. different terminologies.
When I cited Germany and Japan, its to exemplify that there are other exceptional countries. In some aspects, so is Brazil.
But American Exceptionalism evokes these aspects as a source of ultimate virtue in the American society and national ethos. The american society and ethos are flawed, just like everyone else's. While it can be argued that some world societies are more just and moral than others, the US would not be on top of the list.
In one regard, Winthrop was absolutely correct - we are that city on a hill on parade for the whole world to analyze. However it hasn't really worked out the way he envisioned - we aren't that beacon of generosity and altruism that Winthrop spoke of. It's kind of just a grand experiment on what would happen when you pretty much artificially create a society. We don't have a storied and vivid history of our country - we are simply a 250 year-old working prototype of modern society.
Thats the thing, its a political experiment which really hasn't worked too well and cannot apparently be adjusted, as opposed to a system which has evolved progressively.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
we are simply a 250 year-old working prototype of modern society.
The political system has resulted in a two party state, two years out of every four of a Presidential term are often lame duck terms where next to nothing can be done, even when progress can be made the system is beholden to minority groups - who can block totally or tack on their narrow lunacy - and to whichever corporation has the deepest pockets.
Even in good times at least one year in four is wasted with re-election campaigns. 25-50% Of government down the drain, guaranteed, wow.
But still the US can't be shaken from its conviction that it has the best conceived and best functioning democracy in the world.
The city on the hill ideal hasn't really worked too well with slavery, racial segregation and the huge power of some of the wackier religions in the nation to name a few, then of course theres the belligerent self-serving militarism.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-04 02:39:42)
Fuck Israel
Did anyone listen to or read the transcript of Rubio's entire statement?
It's his acceptance speech where that statement was made. I think you'll see that--in context--it's not quite as portrayed by The Daily Beast, but more as intended by the original intent as described by Uzique.
It's his acceptance speech where that statement was made. I think you'll see that--in context--it's not quite as portrayed by The Daily Beast, but more as intended by the original intent as described by Uzique.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ugh.Stingray24 wrote:
Stop being so jealous, D_X. It's so obvious.Dilbert_X wrote:
Empty rhetoric, the US is one big intellectual and financial ponzi scheme with nationalist brainwashing thrown in.Turquoise wrote:
IAs the thread title suggests: Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
Well at least you posted an opinion rather than waiting for someone else to and then karma asskissing them. I guess that's down to lowing leaving...
i think the bees are starting to suspect something... (c)Turquoise wrote:
Normally, I would mock you for a statement like this, but honestly, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from.Dilbert_X wrote:
Empty rhetoric, the US is one big intellectual and financial ponzi scheme with nationalist brainwashing thrown in.Turquoise wrote:
IAs the thread title suggests: Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Dilbert... that's all by design... Americans want a dysfunctional government. The government being fucked up is a lot of the reason why we have maintained our freedom for the past 250 years and why no dictator has grabbed the reins. I'm ecstatic right now that the Republicans took control of the House, not because I agree with their platform, for the most part I don't, but because it means nothing will get done for the next two years. The country is fine the way it is, we don't need one party rule and an ideology that represents the minority having full power. The rallying cry for most Americans is a belief in small government, and little intrusion into our daily lives. A split government is the best for maintaining this ideal.Dilbert_X wrote:
Thats the thing, its a political experiment which really hasn't worked too well and cannot apparently be adjusted, as opposed to a system which has evolved progressively.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
we are simply a 250 year-old working prototype of modern society.
The political system has resulted in a two party state, two years out of every four of a Presidential term are often lame duck terms where next to nothing can be done, even when progress can be made the system is beholden to minority groups - who can block totally or tack on their narrow lunacy - and to whichever corporation has the deepest pockets.
Even in good times at least one year in four is wasted with re-election campaigns. 25-50% Of government down the drain, guaranteed, wow.
But still the US can't be shaken from its conviction that it has the best conceived and best functioning democracy in the world.
The city on the hill ideal hasn't really worked too well with slavery, racial segregation and the huge power of some of the wackier religions in the nation to name a few, then of course theres the belligerent self-serving militarism.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
...not me.JohnG@lt wrote:
Dilbert... that's all by design... Americans want a dysfunctional government.
Not really... I think that's pretty far-fetched to assume is the reason for this.JohnG@lt wrote:
The government being fucked up is a lot of the reason why we have maintained our freedom for the past 250 years and why no dictator has grabbed the reins.
You're right that most Americans seem to want this, but I think we're discovering just how wrong this set of concepts really are.JohnG@lt wrote:
I'm ecstatic right now that the Republicans took control of the House, not because I agree with their platform, for the most part I don't, but because it means nothing will get done for the next two years. The country is fine the way it is, we don't need one party rule and an ideology that represents the minority having full power. The rallying cry for most Americans is a belief in small government, and little intrusion into our daily lives. A split government is the best for maintaining this ideal.
Only if you're a control freak who wants to drag America to some utopia. You have very idealistic goals for where you want America to be. You also completely disrespect the opinions of others who don't wish to be taken there. There's 300+ million people in this country and 300+ million ideas about how our government should function. Someone, somewhere is always going to be pissed off. I happen to strongly believe that the best government is one that simply sits in the background and is not at the forefront. Even you can agree that 99% of the shit they touch turns to... well... shit. Command economies fail. Command societies fail. There is no such thing as an enlightened despot. You need to stop reading so much fucking Krugman.Turquoise wrote:
...not me.JohnG@lt wrote:
Dilbert... that's all by design... Americans want a dysfunctional government.Not really... I think that's pretty far-fetched to assume is the reason for this.JohnG@lt wrote:
The government being fucked up is a lot of the reason why we have maintained our freedom for the past 250 years and why no dictator has grabbed the reins.You're right that most Americans seem to want this, but I think we're discovering just how wrong this set of concepts really are.JohnG@lt wrote:
I'm ecstatic right now that the Republicans took control of the House, not because I agree with their platform, for the most part I don't, but because it means nothing will get done for the next two years. The country is fine the way it is, we don't need one party rule and an ideology that represents the minority having full power. The rallying cry for most Americans is a belief in small government, and little intrusion into our daily lives. A split government is the best for maintaining this ideal.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I prefer Machiavelli, not Krugman.JohnG@lt wrote:
Only if you're a control freak who wants to drag America to some utopia. You have very idealistic goals for where you want America to be. You also completely disrespect the opinions of others who don't wish to be taken there. There's 300+ million people in this country and 300+ million ideas about how our government should function. Someone, somewhere is always going to be pissed off. I happen to strongly believe that the best government is one that simply sits in the background and is not at the forefront. Even you can agree that 99% of the shit they touch turns to... well... shit. Command economies fail. Command societies fail. There is no such thing as an enlightened despot. You need to stop reading so much fucking Krugman.
You realise Machiavelli didn't necessarily mean everything he wrote in The Prince, right?Turquoise wrote:
I prefer Machiavelli, not Krugman.JohnG@lt wrote:
Only if you're a control freak who wants to drag America to some utopia. You have very idealistic goals for where you want America to be. You also completely disrespect the opinions of others who don't wish to be taken there. There's 300+ million people in this country and 300+ million ideas about how our government should function. Someone, somewhere is always going to be pissed off. I happen to strongly believe that the best government is one that simply sits in the background and is not at the forefront. Even you can agree that 99% of the shit they touch turns to... well... shit. Command economies fail. Command societies fail. There is no such thing as an enlightened despot. You need to stop reading so much fucking Krugman.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
It was an entertaining read; what can I say?Spark wrote:
You realise Machiavelli didn't necessarily mean everything he wrote in The Prince, right?Turquoise wrote:
I prefer Machiavelli, not Krugman.JohnG@lt wrote:
Only if you're a control freak who wants to drag America to some utopia. You have very idealistic goals for where you want America to be. You also completely disrespect the opinions of others who don't wish to be taken there. There's 300+ million people in this country and 300+ million ideas about how our government should function. Someone, somewhere is always going to be pissed off. I happen to strongly believe that the best government is one that simply sits in the background and is not at the forefront. Even you can agree that 99% of the shit they touch turns to... well... shit. Command economies fail. Command societies fail. There is no such thing as an enlightened despot. You need to stop reading so much fucking Krugman.
The Devil's Dictionary was another good one (by Ambrose Bierce).
I think it's true. I mean, the US has everything the other countries have in terms of natural beauty etc
plus on a personal level you can just choose what you want to do in life and just do it... less restrictions, less boundaries, all in all fewer obstacles to overcome...
if you work hard enough the money is sure to come and you don't have to depend on anyone but yourself. I think that's the main difference that sets the US apart. It's the one place where everyone has an equal chance to be successful.
plus on a personal level you can just choose what you want to do in life and just do it... less restrictions, less boundaries, all in all fewer obstacles to overcome...
if you work hard enough the money is sure to come and you don't have to depend on anyone but yourself. I think that's the main difference that sets the US apart. It's the one place where everyone has an equal chance to be successful.
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