Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina
I disagree with the following article's stance on stimulus spending, since I favor spending cuts over spending increases by government.  However, near the end of the article, the author makes an interesting point....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- … s:archive6

Historians may also look back at 2010 as the first post-9/11 election in which fears of China loomed larger than fears of Al Qaeda. Given that China has stimulated its way out of recession and is set to pour even more government money into infrastructure, leaving America further behind, I doubt it will be the last. In his Senate victory speech, Republican megastar Marco Rubio announced that “America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind” because “almost every other place in the world…what you were going to be when you grow up was determined for you.” Almost every other place in the world? From China to India to Brazil, hundreds of millions of people are rising economically in ways their parents could scarcely have imagined, in part because their governments are investing in infrastructure in the way the United States did in the late nineteenth century. The American dream of upward mobility is alive and well, just not in America. And rather than looking at what those other countries are doing right, the Republicans have taken refuge in an anti-government ideology premised on the lunatic notion that America is the only truly free and successful country in the world. That ideology won last night, and Keynesianism lost. Have a good day!

I'm not a Keynesian myself, but it is worth noting that elements of Keynesianism have worked quite well for a lot of the world.

At the same time, a lot of politicians like to pour on the nationalism with this exceptionalism idea.

As the thread title suggests:  Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6533|Long Island, New York
“America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind”
These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

I disagree with the following article's stance on stimulus spending, since I favor spending cuts over spending increases by government.  However, near the end of the article, the author makes an interesting point....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- … s:archive6

Historians may also look back at 2010 as the first post-9/11 election in which fears of China loomed larger than fears of Al Qaeda. Given that China has stimulated its way out of recession and is set to pour even more government money into infrastructure, leaving America further behind, I doubt it will be the last. In his Senate victory speech, Republican megastar Marco Rubio announced that “America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind” because “almost every other place in the world…what you were going to be when you grow up was determined for you.” Almost every other place in the world? From China to India to Brazil, hundreds of millions of people are rising economically in ways their parents could scarcely have imagined, in part because their governments are investing in infrastructure in the way the United States did in the late nineteenth century. The American dream of upward mobility is alive and well, just not in America. And rather than looking at what those other countries are doing right, the Republicans have taken refuge in an anti-government ideology premised on the lunatic notion that America is the only truly free and successful country in the world. That ideology won last night, and Keynesianism lost. Have a good day!

I'm not a Keynesian myself, but it is worth noting that elements of Keynesianism have worked quite well for a lot of the world.

At the same time, a lot of politicians like to pour on the nationalism with this exceptionalism idea.

As the thread title suggests:  Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
China's economy is slowing down, it never had a recession so it never had a stimulus, and equating infrastructure spending with upwards mobility is fucking lawlz.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Poseidon wrote:

“America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind”
These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6533|Long Island, New York

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

“America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind”
These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I disagree with the following article's stance on stimulus spending, since I favor spending cuts over spending increases by government.  However, near the end of the article, the author makes an interesting point....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- … s:archive6

Historians may also look back at 2010 as the first post-9/11 election in which fears of China loomed larger than fears of Al Qaeda. Given that China has stimulated its way out of recession and is set to pour even more government money into infrastructure, leaving America further behind, I doubt it will be the last. In his Senate victory speech, Republican megastar Marco Rubio announced that “America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind” because “almost every other place in the world…what you were going to be when you grow up was determined for you.” Almost every other place in the world? From China to India to Brazil, hundreds of millions of people are rising economically in ways their parents could scarcely have imagined, in part because their governments are investing in infrastructure in the way the United States did in the late nineteenth century. The American dream of upward mobility is alive and well, just not in America. And rather than looking at what those other countries are doing right, the Republicans have taken refuge in an anti-government ideology premised on the lunatic notion that America is the only truly free and successful country in the world. That ideology won last night, and Keynesianism lost. Have a good day!

I'm not a Keynesian myself, but it is worth noting that elements of Keynesianism have worked quite well for a lot of the world.

At the same time, a lot of politicians like to pour on the nationalism with this exceptionalism idea.

As the thread title suggests:  Is American exceptionalism actually a valid ideology, or is it just empty rhetoric and mindless nationalism?
China's economy is slowing down, it never had a recession so it never had a stimulus, and equating infrastructure spending with upwards mobility is fucking lawlz.
One of the biggest economic successes of the 20th Century was South Korea.  A large part of their rise from 3rd World status to First World involved infrastructure development.  China is very similar as well.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

“America is the single greatest nation in all of human history. A place without equal in the history of all mankind”
These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
While I actually lean isolationist, we can learn a lot from the outside world just like they can learn from us.  This blind arrogance that resonates among many Americans is neither logical nor is it uniquely American.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
Trade relations are affected by popular opinion in foreign countries.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


These fucks are the reasons why we're so isolated from the rest of the world. It's not about being the best, it's about being the best the country can be without having to compare ourselves.

Should've heard Rand Paul's speech last night. Eerily similar.
Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
While I actually lean isolationist, we can learn a lot from the outside world just like they can learn from us.  This blind arrogance that resonates among many Americans is neither logical nor is it uniquely American.
While I fully advocate military isolationism, I don't advocate trade or travel isolation. Point is, what the rest of the world thinks of us doesn't matter. The world isn't a popularity contest and there certainly is no prize for being on the top of that list.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
Trade relations are affected by popular opinion in foreign countries.
Not really. No one is going to cut off the US market. It would be economic suicide.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6533|Long Island, New York

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Who gives a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about us? Do I lose sleep because people in Yemen dislike us tremendously? Fuck no.
I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
You missed the point completely. It's not about "caring" what they think of us at all. We should completely remove it from our opinions.

But these fucks of politicians simply try to be "better". Not the "best". And their rhetoric makes that VERY clear.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


I know, we should just go back to a policy of isolationism. Then we'd be the BEST!
No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
You missed the point completely. It's not about "caring" what they think of us at all. We should completely remove it from our opinions.

But these fucks of politicians simply try to be "better". Not the "best". And their rhetoric makes that VERY clear.
So? Every last one of the citizens of this nation should be striving to better themselves. Accepting mediocrity may be ok for you, but for a lot of us, the competitive nature of that rallying cry resonates. I'm a competitive person, you clearly are not.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
Trade relations are affected by popular opinion in foreign countries.
Not really. No one is going to cut off the US market. It would be economic suicide.
Cutting us off won't happen, but whether or not tariffs get slapped on our products is sometimes affected by popular opinion.

Also, it's not just about us traveling to other countries.  We get less tourism when the world's opinion of us is lower.

And, since we currently do engage in a lot of interventionism, forming military alliances is also tied to opinions of us.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


No, we just need less people like you that worry excessively about popular opinion regarding America in places like Europe. Why does popular opinion of us in Europe mean anything? It doesn't.
You missed the point completely. It's not about "caring" what they think of us at all. We should completely remove it from our opinions.

But these fucks of politicians simply try to be "better". Not the "best". And their rhetoric makes that VERY clear.
So? Every last one of the citizens of this nation should be striving to better themselves. Accepting mediocrity may be ok for you, but for a lot of us, the competitive nature of that rallying cry resonates. I'm a competitive person, you clearly are not.
Yeah....   John, if you really didn't care what others thought of you, then you'd have no reason to be competitive.  Who would be worth competing with if you didn't care?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5353|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Poseidon wrote:


You missed the point completely. It's not about "caring" what they think of us at all. We should completely remove it from our opinions.

But these fucks of politicians simply try to be "better". Not the "best". And their rhetoric makes that VERY clear.
So? Every last one of the citizens of this nation should be striving to better themselves. Accepting mediocrity may be ok for you, but for a lot of us, the competitive nature of that rallying cry resonates. I'm a competitive person, you clearly are not.
Yeah....   John, if you really didn't care what others thought of you, then you'd have no reason to be competitive.  Who would be worth competing with if you didn't care?
Because it's not others opinions I'm worried about. I care what I think of myself and if I'm not the best I get upset with myself. I could care less about praise or any of that other crap that goes along with winning. It's about my own pride.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


So? Every last one of the citizens of this nation should be striving to better themselves. Accepting mediocrity may be ok for you, but for a lot of us, the competitive nature of that rallying cry resonates. I'm a competitive person, you clearly are not.
Yeah....   John, if you really didn't care what others thought of you, then you'd have no reason to be competitive.  Who would be worth competing with if you didn't care?
Because it's not others opinions I'm worried about. I care what I think of myself and if I'm not the best I get upset with myself. I could care less about praise or any of that other crap that goes along with winning. It's about my own pride.
But the state of being "best" is an inherent comparison of yourself to others.  That, in and of itself, is caring how you measure up to others.  Maybe it's not exactly the same thing as caring what others think, but it's pretty close.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6466
american exceptionalism has today manifested itself in a crude form of nationalist, chauvinist militarism

so yes, i do tend to think it's bullshit
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6533|Long Island, New York
John states that he doesn't care what others think of him, then claims he's competitive while I'm not.

lol'd.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6771|Moscow, Russia

Poseidon wrote:

John states that he doesn't care what others think of him, then claims he's competitive while I'm not.

lol'd.
yep. this contradiction i often see in so called "competitive" and "successfull" people always make me chuckle.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-11-03 07:17:49)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6406|'Murka

I think these politicians need to learn nuance. I would've stated that there is no country in the history of the world that I would consider better than the US. But I wouldn't say the US is the best in the history of the world. There is a difference.

As far as rising powers go, it is based more on population (see Organski and others) than anything else. That is why India and China are progressing so rapidly in comparison to established world powers, essentially doing the same thing the US did post-industrial revolution, and for the same reason. To a lesser extent, the re-emergence of Russia is following the same path.

The challenge for the West is how we handle the challenge to our positions as "top dogs" in the global power structure: do we see this as a threat or as an opportunity for cooperation?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ticia
Member
+73|5331
Exceptionalism?  Talk about a sophistic overstate

Just because the USA has some originality, when it comes to political thought and history they have always been heavily influenced by European ideas and experience. Nothing to be proud but nothing to be ashamed of either.
mr.hrundi
Wurstwassereis
+68|6433|Germany
The US went quite well for about 2 centuries with their exceptionalism. They were best in many political and economical aspects (from a capitalistic and democratic point of view), and everyone knew that.
Times change and slowly but surely other nations realize that they might be just as good, or, in a while even better. To keep their status, the US would have to go with the times and accept criticism. Many don't want that and use isolationalism as an escape route. A few years ago, there was no need for that, now that other countries become competition, some hide. They think it will just go on like it was forever.

In short, because I'm thinking faster than I can type: Exceptionalism worked, but itdoesnt anymore. It's time for a different attitude.

A german president once said: 'A patriot loves his country, a nationalist hates other countries.'
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6466

Ticia wrote:

Exceptionalism?  Talk about a sophistic overstate

Just because the USA has some originality, when it comes to political thought and history they have always been heavily influenced by European ideas and experience. Nothing to be proud but nothing to be ashamed of either.
american exceptionalism is considered a legitimate social and political ideology.

he's not coining a new phrase there.

it stems from winthrop's "city on a hill" puritan ideal and has been traced through history in one form or another since then
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
EVieira
Member
+105|6474|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Uzique wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Exceptionalism?  Talk about a sophistic overstate

Just because the USA has some originality, when it comes to political thought and history they have always been heavily influenced by European ideas and experience. Nothing to be proud but nothing to be ashamed of either.
american exceptionalism is considered a legitimate social and political ideology.

he's not coining a new phrase there.

it stems from winthrop's "city on a hill" puritan ideal and has been traced through history in one form or another since then
According to the wikipedia: American exceptionalism is an American theory that the United States occupies a special role among the nations of the world in terms of its national ethos, political and religious institutions, and its being built by immigrants. The roots of the position have been dated back to 1630 with John Winthrop's "City Upon a Hill",[1] although some scholars attribute it to a passage of Alexis de Tocqueville,[2] who argued that the United States held a special place among nations because it was the first working representative democracy.

To me its a load of egocentric megalomaniac bullshit...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)

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