Interesting times.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
So, FEOS, what do you see as most likely for Germany's future regarding Turkish immigrants and their relations with Russia?
I don't see the possibility of Germany outsourcing the jobs to Russia as that far-fetched. It strengthens the economic ties with Russia, which benefits both parties, particularly WRT fuels availability (which also helps other EU countries), and it removes the incentive for the Turkish minority to stay, unless they choose to integrate into German society. They either integrate, move back to Turkey, or follow the jobs to Russia.Turquoise wrote:
So, FEOS, what do you see as most likely for Germany's future regarding Turkish immigrants and their relations with Russia?
That is, if Russia will let them. I'm thinking that is less likely, considering the issues Russia has had with Muslim minority groups over the past 20 years or so.
The other wrinkle about the Turkish population in Germany is that it is largely Kurdish. I believe Germany has the largest Kurdish population outside of Turkey. At least, that's what my Kurdish friend whose family lives in Germany told me. If they all moved back to Turkey, there would be an influx of Kurdish population in Turkey. And the Turks don't care for the Kurds. Would the Turks even let them back in?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I guess if they do that, then the Kurds will have to integrate into German culture then.
EDIT: According to wiki, the order of countries with the most Kurds is Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and then Germany. Apparently, the exact number of Kurds in Germany is unknown, ranging from estimates between 500,000 and 800,000.
EDIT: According to wiki, the order of countries with the most Kurds is Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and then Germany. Apparently, the exact number of Kurds in Germany is unknown, ranging from estimates between 500,000 and 800,000.
Last edited by Turquoise (2010-10-20 18:37:26)
@FEOS what a bunch of crap. The same shit goes on here and no one has a problem with it. We have Chinatowns and Koreatowns and Little Italy's and everything else under the sun. Hell, Dearborn, MI is almost wholly muslim. So what? Maybe it works for us because there really is no defining dominant culture that is America. We've been sectionalized since birth with each section having it's own predominant foods, accent, culture etc. Just about the only overriding thing is that we want everyone to speak English, and the vast majority of people that move to this country on a permanent basis do learn enough of the language to get by. Their kids end up in ESL, which is fine.
The problem isn't multi-culturalism, the problem is social democracy and it's desire to order. Order is fine, except it destroys any outliers that get in the way. It creates mono-cultural societies which are boring and entirely inflexible. They're forced to revere the past because they are incapable of evolving into the future. In this case, the Turks are simply scapegoats for myriad problems that Germany has been facing ever since the Berlin Wall came down. It's their refusal to evolve which has their economy and national finances teetering on the brink, not an excess of immigrants.
The problem isn't multi-culturalism, the problem is social democracy and it's desire to order. Order is fine, except it destroys any outliers that get in the way. It creates mono-cultural societies which are boring and entirely inflexible. They're forced to revere the past because they are incapable of evolving into the future. In this case, the Turks are simply scapegoats for myriad problems that Germany has been facing ever since the Berlin Wall came down. It's their refusal to evolve which has their economy and national finances teetering on the brink, not an excess of immigrants.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I would argue it has less to do with social democracy and more to do with America's focus on ideology rather than an actual cultural identity.JohnG@lt wrote:
@FEOS what a bunch of crap. The same shit goes on here and no one has a problem with it. We have Chinatowns and Koreatowns and Little Italy's and everything else under the sun. Hell, Dearborn, MI is almost wholly muslim. So what? Maybe it works for us because there really is no defining dominant culture that is America. We've been sectionalized since birth with each section having it's own predominant foods, accent, culture etc. Just about the only overriding thing is that we want everyone to speak English, and the vast majority of people that move to this country on a permanent basis do learn enough of the language to get by. Their kids end up in ESL, which is fine.
The problem isn't multi-culturalism, the problem is social democracy and it's desire to order. Order is fine, except it destroys any outliers that get in the way. It creates mono-cultural societies which are boring and entirely inflexible. They're forced to revere the past because they are incapable of evolving into the future. In this case, the Turks are simply scapegoats for myriad problems that Germany has been facing ever since the Berlin Wall came down. It's their refusal to evolve which has their economy and national finances teetering on the brink, not an excess of immigrants.
As the article states, Germany is like other European nations in that it defines nationhood in a cultural sense.
Americans generally see nationhood as being ideological -- pertaining to the Constitution and such. That makes assimilation easier here, while at the same time, cultural separatism can occur without as many conflicts as in a place like Germany.
How assimilated are we really? Most people that I'm friends with know their cultural heritage down to the 1/16th. Would someone in Europe ask someone else where their family came from? No. Happens all the time here in regular every day conversation. Would I want to retrace my grandparents steps and move back to Sweden, Germany, Poland or Lithuania? No, of course not. But I'll cheer them on in the World Cup and Olympics
We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
If Hitler had attempted to take control here like he did in Germany he would've failed completely. He would've been laughed off the first stage he ascended.
We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
If Hitler had attempted to take control here like he did in Germany he would've failed completely. He would've been laughed off the first stage he ascended.
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-20 19:00:03)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well, that's the thing though. Our unity is ideological, not cultural. We still have plenty of nationalism, but it manifests in terms of ideas, not race or culture -- although some people try to link it to religion (which is a really bad idea).JohnG@lt wrote:
How assimilated are we really? Most people that I'm friends with know their cultural heritage down to the 1/16th. Would someone in Europe ask someone else where their family came from? No. Happens all the time here in regular every day conversation. Would I want to retrace my grandparents steps and move back to Sweden, Germany, Poland or Lithuania? No, of course not. But I'll cheer them on in the World Cup and Olympics
We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
Shrug, what percentage of the population actually identifies with a party? What percentage votes? Much smaller than you think, they're just noisy. The majority just want to be left alone.Turquoise wrote:
Well, that's the thing though. Our unity is ideological, not cultural. We still have plenty of nationalism, but it manifests in terms of ideas, not race or culture -- although some people try to link it to religion (which is a really bad idea).JohnG@lt wrote:
How assimilated are we really? Most people that I'm friends with know their cultural heritage down to the 1/16th. Would someone in Europe ask someone else where their family came from? No. Happens all the time here in regular every day conversation. Would I want to retrace my grandparents steps and move back to Sweden, Germany, Poland or Lithuania? No, of course not. But I'll cheer them on in the World Cup and Olympics
We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Not really. He would've had to have risen to power in the mid to late 1800s and aimed his racism at either blacks or certain European immigrant groups like the Irish to be successful here.JohnG@lt wrote:
If Hitler had attempted to take control here like he did in Germany he would've failed completely. He would've been laughed off the first stage he ascended.
Yes, but that's based on ideas of individuality. In a lot of other countries, there is more of a peer pressure element involved.JohnG@lt wrote:
Shrug, what percentage of the population actually identifies with a party? What percentage votes? Much smaller than you think, they're just noisy. The majority just want to be left alone.Turquoise wrote:
Well, that's the thing though. Our unity is ideological, not cultural. We still have plenty of nationalism, but it manifests in terms of ideas, not race or culture -- although some people try to link it to religion (which is a really bad idea).JohnG@lt wrote:
How assimilated are we really? Most people that I'm friends with know their cultural heritage down to the 1/16th. Would someone in Europe ask someone else where their family came from? No. Happens all the time here in regular every day conversation. Would I want to retrace my grandparents steps and move back to Sweden, Germany, Poland or Lithuania? No, of course not. But I'll cheer them on in the World Cup and Olympics
We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
Then why are you so hell bent on killing the individual?Turquoise wrote:
Yes, but that's based on ideas of individuality. In a lot of other countries, there is more of a peer pressure element involved.JohnG@lt wrote:
Shrug, what percentage of the population actually identifies with a party? What percentage votes? Much smaller than you think, they're just noisy. The majority just want to be left alone.Turquoise wrote:
Well, that's the thing though. Our unity is ideological, not cultural. We still have plenty of nationalism, but it manifests in terms of ideas, not race or culture -- although some people try to link it to religion (which is a really bad idea).
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Have you even been to Europe?JohnG@lt wrote:
How assimilated are we really? Most people that I'm friends with know their cultural heritage down to the 1/16th. Would someone in Europe ask someone else where their family came from? No. Happens all the time here in regular every day conversation. Would I want to retrace my grandparents steps and move back to Sweden, Germany, Poland or Lithuania? No, of course not. But I'll cheer them on in the World Cup and Olympics
Considering how much effort the US puts into starting 'shit' elsewhere thats laughable.We just lack the nationalism that is so prevalent over there and that has to do with our sectional divides than anything else. We're too busy arguing amongst ourselves to want to start shit elsewhere. Instead of a mono-cultural monolith, we're a collection of 300 million individuals who can be united behind a common cause, but who will then go back to doing whatever it is they do when it's done. Our lack of national unity is our great strength.
Depends, if he had been in the Reps or Dems and it had been their 'turn' he would have got on fine.If Hitler had attempted to take control here like he did in Germany he would've failed completely. He would've been laughed off the first stage he ascended.
Look at the things Bush did by Presidential decree, and he used the exact same methods as Hitler, just replaced 'jews' with 'muslims'.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-10-20 19:35:07)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Yes. I've been to Germany and The Netherlands.Dilbert_X wrote:
Have you even been to Europe?
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-20 19:56:43)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Because I believe peer pressure is sometimes a good thing.JohnG@lt wrote:
Then why are you so hell bent on killing the individual?Turquoise wrote:
Yes, but that's based on ideas of individuality. In a lot of other countries, there is more of a peer pressure element involved.JohnG@lt wrote:
Shrug, what percentage of the population actually identifies with a party? What percentage votes? Much smaller than you think, they're just noisy. The majority just want to be left alone.
G@lt, you're essentially agreeing with the article.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
don't be ridiculous - nobody in their right mind would outsource any jobs to russia, simply because it costs, like, several times as much to manufacture anything in here compared to china and the likes. russia is and, as long as it follows so called "enligtened west", will remain a resource extracting shithole with rapidly declining population and ridiculous corruption levels.FEOS wrote:
I don't see the possibility of Germany outsourcing the jobs to Russia as that far-fetched.Turquoise wrote:
So, FEOS, what do you see as most likely for Germany's future regarding Turkish immigrants and their relations with Russia?
Last edited by Shahter (2010-10-21 04:34:42)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
So not unlike many of the other places that manufacturing jobs are outsourced to?Shahter wrote:
don't be ridiculous - nobody in their right mind would outsource any jobs to russia, simply because it costs, like, several times as much to manufacture anything in here compared to china and the likes. russia is and, as long as it follows so called "enligtened west", will remain a resource extracting shithole with rapidly declining population and ridiculous corruption levels.FEOS wrote:
I don't see the possibility of Germany outsourcing the jobs to Russia as that far-fetched.Turquoise wrote:
So, FEOS, what do you see as most likely for Germany's future regarding Turkish immigrants and their relations with Russia?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
China is much cheaper, and they have a positive forward attitude, for now.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
not just that. if you dont want to take this shitty job, they'll be a million others who will replace you.Dilbert_X wrote:
China is much cheaper, and they have a positive forward attitude, for now.
FEOS wrote:
So not unlike many of the other places that manufacturing jobs are outsourced to?Shahter wrote:
don't be ridiculous - nobody in their right mind would outsource any jobs to russia, simply because it costs, like, several times as much to manufacture anything in here compared to china and the likes. russia is and, as long as it follows so called "enligtened west", will remain a resource extracting shithole with rapidly declining population and ridiculous corruption levels.FEOS wrote:
I don't see the possibility of Germany outsourcing the jobs to Russia as that far-fetched.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
It's totally dependent upon the business case. In comparison to doing it in Germany, the economy of scale realized by moving it out to Russia is a net savings.Shahter wrote:
FEOS wrote:
So not unlike many of the other places that manufacturing jobs are outsourced to?Shahter wrote:
don't be ridiculous - nobody in their right mind would outsource any jobs to russia, simply because it costs, like, several times as much to manufacture anything in here compared to china and the likes. russia is and, as long as it follows so called "enligtened west", will remain a resource extracting shithole with rapidly declining population and ridiculous corruption levels.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
No offense, but it just kind of seems like Russia has always been a "shithole." This seems to have held true regardless of whether it was ruled by Tsars, Communists, or industrialists.Shahter wrote:
don't be ridiculous - nobody in their right mind would outsource any jobs to russia, simply because it costs, like, several times as much to manufacture anything in here compared to china and the likes. russia is and, as long as it follows so called "enligtened west", will remain a resource extracting shithole with rapidly declining population and ridiculous corruption levels.FEOS wrote:
I don't see the possibility of Germany outsourcing the jobs to Russia as that far-fetched.Turquoise wrote:
So, FEOS, what do you see as most likely for Germany's future regarding Turkish immigrants and their relations with Russia?
it's totally dependant on an average cost of having someone work for you in a certain place. in russia where winter lasts for six months you'd have to pay ten times as much for energy alone to have any working place set up and running as you would pay for the same working place in china. climate alone makes it so there's almost NO business case for which russia would win over china in manufacturing costs.FEOS wrote:
It's totally dependent upon the business case. In comparison to doing it in Germany, the economy of scale realized by moving it out to Russia is a net savings.Shahter wrote:
FEOS wrote:
So not unlike many of the other places that manufacturing jobs are outsourced to?
no offence taken. it is, however, all relative. for the reasons i mentioned above, the standarts of living comparable with the west cannot be achieved in russia at all - not as long as it has its present enormous population. however, for perspective, try googling what it was like before bolsheviks got in power: every bad harvest ment tens of thousands dead back then, each and every time without fail. i'm not even going into education levels and all that jazz. soviets managed to not only considerably raise the standarts of living, but also had very orderly and stable society running here - and all that while they'd been actively compeeting with the west in almost every field where competition usually happens between nations and ideologies. imagine what it would be like if they didn't have to dedicate three quarters of their economy to military, huh?Turquoise wrote:
No offense, but it just kind of seems like Russia has always been a "shithole." This seems to have held true regardless of whether it was ruled by Tsars, Communists, or industrialists.
and then look what we have here now...
Last edited by Shahter (2010-10-21 06:55:36)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Go back and re-read the article. The clear implication is that the manufacturing capacity is already there...Germany just needs to leverage the labor pool, which is cheaper than Germany's. Then take into account shipping costs from China as compared to energy costs in Russia...Shahter wrote:
it's totally dependant on an average cost of having someone work for you in a certain place. in russia where winter lasts for six months you'd have to pay ten times as much for energy alone to have any working place set up and running as you would pay for the same working place in china. climate alone makes it so there's almost NO business case for which russia would win over china in manufacturing costs.FEOS wrote:
It's totally dependent upon the business case. In comparison to doing it in Germany, the economy of scale realized by moving it out to Russia is a net savings.Shahter wrote:
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular