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JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

You have it backwards. The unhealthy people in our society are subsidizing us, and forcing more resources to be present because of their behavior. You are benefiting by having a society full of lardasses requiring triple bypass surgery. If everyone was healthy and fit we wouldn't need half the hospitals or doctors that presently exist and we sure as shit wouldn't get the medical breakthroughs because there wouldn't be as much money involved.

Next time you're walking down the street, thank a smoker for subsidizing your health care.

Yeah...  and that's why we pay more per capita for care than any other country.

That is the most retarded argument I've ever heard on healthcare.

We pay more per capita but we get better care than anywhere else in the world.

Which a large portion of us can't afford to get.

The quality of care doesn't matter if the majority can't afford it.

Access and preventive care along with healthy lifestyles matter the most.

Also, healthspans matter more than lifespans.

Why? No-one else resorts to personal attacks when they lose.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Yeah...  and that's why we pay more per capita for care than any other country.

That is the most retarded argument I've ever heard on healthcare.

We pay more per capita but we get better care than anywhere else in the world.

Which a large portion of us can't afford to get.

The quality of care doesn't matter if the majority can't afford it.

Access and preventive care along with healthy lifestyles matter the most.

Also, healthspans matter more than lifespans.

You can't afford health insurance? Liar. Most people who make that argument are juggling three mortgages and have liens on their jet ski, two cars and probably their furniture. People who are genuinely poor get Medicaid, the rest are just incompetent fools who don't value health care enough to make it a priority and then bitch when the cost goes up by a pack of smokes a month. No sympathy.

I have great health insurance but if I ever get really ill I rather just die than go through some long treatment/recovery process.

Just a thought.

You're paying top dollar and getting no benefit, because your people choose to eat rubbish.

I'd pick a long healthy life over a short sickly one and a diet of lard. Its cheaper too, leaving me cash to spend.
If I do get sick I'd rather not stand behind a line of people with self-inflicted illnesses.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-10-17 18:05:38)

JG wrote:

I'm surrounded by old people in my neighborhood and every time I see them walking around I think to myself 'damn I never want to be that old'. Walking to the deli every day to buy a few slices of meat or cheese simply so you can get some social interaction and exercise while spending the rest of your day on the couch watching tv. Ahh, the golden years, they look so amazingly bright.

Life is a ponzi scheme, you work and save until you're too old to benefit.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

You can't afford health insurance? Liar. Most people who make that argument are juggling three mortgages and have liens on their jet ski, two cars and probably their furniture. People who are genuinely poor get Medicaid, the rest are just incompetent fools who don't value health care enough to make it a priority and then bitch when the cost goes up by a pack of smokes a month. No sympathy.

I have an employer plan.  Of course, I can afford care.  People who are self-insured aren't quite as lucky.

And all these "fools" you don't care about still rack up costs that they can't cover and you and I have to cover.  Either you socialize their care (and we're not talking Medicaid here) or you create an environment that makes it harder for them to make unhealthy decisions.

That is, unless you enjoy watching your costs go up because of their stupid decisions.

High deductible insurance plan. HSA. Monthly fee is low and rate spikes don't occur. This requires some self control, as in the ability to not drain a savings account for a trip to Disneyworld, but the benefits are immense. You can even invest that savings plan and have it earn you far more than the rate increases would ever match.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I have an employer plan.  Of course, I can afford care.  People who are self-insured aren't quite as lucky.

And all these "fools" you don't care about still rack up costs that they can't cover and you and I have to cover.  Either you socialize their care (and we're not talking Medicaid here) or you create an environment that makes it harder for them to make unhealthy decisions.

That is, unless you enjoy watching your costs go up because of their stupid decisions.

High deductible insurance plan. HSA. Monthly fee is low and rate spikes don't occur. This requires some self control, as in the ability to not drain a savings account for a trip to Disneyworld, but the benefits are immense. You can even invest that savings plan and have it earn you far more than the rate increases would ever match.

I'll put it this way.  If you could somehow encourage the vast majority of those without employer plans to do this, then you'd have a feasible alternative to socialization or "fat" taxes.

The question is...  how would you go about promoting this and actually getting most people to develop one?

It wouldn't work for most people. They lack self control and would indeed spend it on Disneyworld and end up putting expenses on a credit card. As it stands, paying for health insurance is very similar to a car payment. It's expensive, but definitely doable if people live within their means and treat it as a necessity instead of waiting until they are actually sick to try to sneak in. Peoples priorities are simply fucked and there's no getting around that. It's why I feel no sympathy when the left trots out their hard luck stories. Insurance is affordable to all.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'll put it this way.  If you could somehow encourage the vast majority of those without employer plans to do this, then you'd have a feasible alternative to socialization or "fat" taxes.

The question is...  how would you go about promoting this and actually getting most people to develop one?

It wouldn't work for most people. They lack self control and would indeed spend it on Disneyworld and end up putting expenses on a credit card. As it stands, paying for health insurance is very similar to a car payment. It's expensive, but definitely doable if people live within their means and treat it as a necessity instead of waiting until they are actually sick to try to sneak in. Peoples priorities are simply fucked and there's no getting around that. It's why I feel no sympathy when the left trots out their hard luck stories. Insurance is affordable to all.

Well, don't you see that it's not about sympathy?  It's about my costs and yours.  We're the responsible ones.  We either have insurance or an HSA.  We live in healthy ways (I'm assuming).

However, the costs of care will continue to go up as a result of the irresponsible people.  There's no escaping that.  So therefore, wouldn't you support something put into place to keep costs from rising as fast as they currently do?

They aren't rising because of irresponsible people, they're rising because of unionized nurses, pharma companies getting doctors to proscribe medication that people don't really need, and a host of other issues. The biggest problem with medicine in America is doctors who get kickbacks for recommending certain drugs or treatments. Heck, my mom has a few doctors working for her to sell some bullshit herbal remedy stuff. She provides the goods, they sell the goods, and they each get a percentage of the profits. Medical costs have skyrocketed due to this and malpractice insurance rates. It really has very little to do with anything else.

People trust doctors and doctors take advantage of this. They could sell a pack of cigs to a person dying of lung cancer and convince them that smoking them would fix them, and they do (though not in this obvious way obviously). It's why 'alternative medicine' quacks have sprung up and rake in billions of dollars selling people piles of lint in snazzy bottles. We've built up this mystique of the infallible and caring doctor and the assholes are using it to rake in big money. Medicine has become a racket, it's no longer noble.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-17 18:32:16)

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They aren't rising because of irresponsible people, they're rising because of unionized nurses, pharma companies getting doctors to proscribe medication that people don't really need, and a host of other issues. The biggest problem with medicine in America is doctors who get kickbacks for recommending certain drugs or treatments. Heck, my mom has a few doctors working for her to sell some bullshit herbal remedy stuff. She provides the goods, they sell the goods, and they each get a percentage of the profits. Medical costs have skyrocketed due to this and malpractice insurance rates. It really has very little to do with anything else.

Then, would you support regulations to prevent these practices?

JohnG@lt wrote:

People trust doctors and doctors take advantage of this. They could sell a pack of cigs to a person dying of lung cancer and convince them that smoking them would fix them, and they do (though not in this obvious way obviously). It's why 'alternative medicine' quacks have sprung up and rake in billions of dollars selling people piles of lint in snazzy bottles. We've built up this mystique of the infallible and caring doctor and the assholes are using it to rake in big money. Medicine has become a racket, it's no longer noble.

Again, what sort of regulation or educational improvements would you recommend?

Doctors need to police themselves. They have their own ethics panels etc.

The biggest tool the consumer has is simply asking for a second opinion.

Turquoise wrote:

For the most part, the former won't happen.

The latter happens already to a point, but depending upon the wisdom of the public is never a safe bet.

Shrug. People will do what they do regardless of any rules you put into place. In fact, the more rules, the more corruption. Perhaps a rule requiring disclosure on the part of the doctor whenever they recommend a treatment they will profit from. Other than that? Nada.

But even here, we're interfering in the doctors right to run his business. We should blame Hollywood for creating this mystique about the altruistic doctor who lives to save his patients. The truth is anything but and probably never has been.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-17 18:46:23)

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

For the most part, the former won't happen.

The latter happens already to a point, but depending upon the wisdom of the public is never a safe bet.

Shrug. People will do what they do regardless of any rules you put into place. In fact, the more rules, the more corruption. Perhaps a rule requiring disclosure on the part of the doctor whenever they recommend a treatment they will profit from. Other than that? Nada.

But even here, we're interfering in the doctors right to run his business. We should blame Hollywood for creating this mystique about the altruistic doctor who lives to save his patients. The truth is anything but and probably never has been.

I would argue doctors are generally less materialistic in socialized systems.  They don't make as much money in those systems, so they clearly aren't doing it for the money.

They also offer worse care, are much more rare, and aren't as willing to 'go the extra mile'. You're just another number in socialized medicine and they're simply trying to get through their day with as little hassle as possible, same as any other salaried government employee. Trust me, I've been dealing with military and VA care for the past decade and you would never want to deal with either if there was a commercial option available. You can ask any single veteran the same thing and they will give the same answer. Government salaried doctors are awful. I once sat in a doctors office for sixteen hours with what I thought was a hernia. Most excruciating thing I've ever experienced. Turns out I had a staph infection. The waiting period is how they weed out those who 'don't really need care' from those that do. Fucked up innit?

If a private practice doctor had done the same thing to me there would've been a lawsuit. I can go into the walk in clinic and be seen in under a half hour.

Edit - Oh, and the doctor that I finally saw was fresh off the boat from Nigeria with a very thick accent. Top quality.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-17 19:09:07)

JohnG@lt wrote:

That's your choice, not mine. I like food, I like beer, I like smoking. I like driving my car and motorcycle fast. You can play it safe, live a boring, long life all you want. I'll enjoy myself while I'm on earth.

I'm not really sure whats enjoyable about being eating garbage, inhaling addictive poison and risking debilitating injury for no benefit.

You've just been suckered into the 'consume, consume, consume' culture on which corporate America depends and which they promote through the myth of 'freedom'.

Look at it this way:

The French dream is good food, good wine, intellectual discourse and quality intercourse.

The American dream is a huge house, overpowered car and to get so fat you can't walk and your dick stops working.

I know which I like better.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-10-17 19:20:42)