Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England
Not school related in any way, just something I was pondering while stuck in traffic last week.

Here's the scenario:
You are given an unlimited budget and unlimited time in which to complete this project, but you still must be mindful of ways to cut costs and finish the product in a reasonable amount of time. The area in which the system is built is highly developed and the use of eminent domain in order to build a completely new system is out of the question due to the prohibitive cost. You are given a dilapidated highway system that is very old, not very well maintained, and is well beyond capacity limits. Given these variables what ideas do you possess for creating a 'dream' highway system?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina
This is only peripherally related, but I would suggest simply pushing for more metro systems in larger cities.

As for highways outside of major urban areas...  more state management?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England
Personally, I would go underground with individual tunnels for each lane. I've noticed that most traffic that isn't police activity related stems from people changing lanes erratically. While they themselves might be in full control of their vehicle, they make others around them nervous which leads to traffic slowdowns. Each tunnel would have a traffic lane and a breakdown lane. The breakdown lane would also double as a protected on/off ramp lane for exits and entrances. Lastly, I would have a migrating speed limit based on traffic conditions and a pretty severe speed limit enforcement system where the soft cap would be whatever is listed on the speed limit signs and the hard cap would be five miles above that where they would be fined by camera systems. No cops with flashing lights to stall traffic with rubberneckers.

Pros - Snow, rainy conditions and all other weather effects would be taken out of the equation. No more plowing, no more deicing, no flooding, and because it will be underground, you don't have to worry about freezing conditions either. This would cut down maintenance on the highway by a ridiculous margin.

Cons - High cost and unclear 'mineral rights' laws for any residents home which would be tunneled under.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX
Give tax breaks to companies which let their people work a 4 day, 10 hour a day week, or let let their people work from home one day a week in a five day week.
That'll cut congestion for a start.

Set annual vehicle tax by vehicle weight, on an exponential scale, so people minimise the damage they do and hopefully buy smaller cars which take up less space on the road.

Find a way to get people to live closer to where they work, eg through a tax break on any costs incurred if they move for a job, allowing them to retain a school district for their kids despite their move etc.

Create an autoguidance system standard linked to the exisiting city traffic control systems for all vehicles to smooth traffic flow and reduce accidents - if driving is as exciting as taking the bus maybe people will learn to take the bloody bus.

Otherwise give everyone a hoverboard.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|5992|Vortex Ring State

JohnG@lt wrote:

Personally, I would go underground with individual tunnels for each lane. I've noticed that most traffic that isn't police activity related stems from people changing lanes erratically. While they themselves might be in full control of their vehicle, they make others around them nervous which leads to traffic slowdowns. Each tunnel would have a traffic lane and a breakdown lane. The breakdown lane would also double as a protected on/off ramp lane for exits and entrances. Lastly, I would have a migrating speed limit based on traffic conditions and a pretty severe speed limit enforcement system where the soft cap would be whatever is listed on the speed limit signs and the hard cap would be five miles above that where they would be fined by camera systems. No cops with flashing lights to stall traffic with rubberneckers.

Pros - Snow, rainy conditions and all other weather effects would be taken out of the equation. No more plowing, no more deicing, no flooding, and because it will be underground, you don't have to worry about freezing conditions either. This would cut down maintenance on the highway by a ridiculous margin.

Cons - High cost and unclear 'mineral rights' laws for any residents home which would be tunneled under.
More Mass Transportation, europe style

/troll

IF we want to expand the highway, I'd start stacking/burying lanes or something to create more capacity. use the vertical dimension to expand. Thing is, more on ramps/off ramps to change levels of the highway would be needed.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England

Trotskygrad wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Personally, I would go underground with individual tunnels for each lane. I've noticed that most traffic that isn't police activity related stems from people changing lanes erratically. While they themselves might be in full control of their vehicle, they make others around them nervous which leads to traffic slowdowns. Each tunnel would have a traffic lane and a breakdown lane. The breakdown lane would also double as a protected on/off ramp lane for exits and entrances. Lastly, I would have a migrating speed limit based on traffic conditions and a pretty severe speed limit enforcement system where the soft cap would be whatever is listed on the speed limit signs and the hard cap would be five miles above that where they would be fined by camera systems. No cops with flashing lights to stall traffic with rubberneckers.

Pros - Snow, rainy conditions and all other weather effects would be taken out of the equation. No more plowing, no more deicing, no flooding, and because it will be underground, you don't have to worry about freezing conditions either. This would cut down maintenance on the highway by a ridiculous margin.

Cons - High cost and unclear 'mineral rights' laws for any residents home which would be tunneled under.
More Mass Transportation, europe style

/troll

IF we want to expand the highway, I'd start stacking/burying lanes or something to create more capacity. use the vertical dimension to expand. Thing is, more on ramps/off ramps to change levels of the highway would be needed.
I actually really like the idea of vertically stacked highways. Like I said, the biggest cause of traffic that I see is aggressive lane changing. Distracted, i.e. texting, on the phone, eating, drinking etc comes in a close second. Old people too
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Personally, I would go underground with individual tunnels for each lane. I've noticed that most traffic that isn't police activity related stems from people changing lanes erratically. While they themselves might be in full control of their vehicle, they make others around them nervous which leads to traffic slowdowns. Each tunnel would have a traffic lane and a breakdown lane. The breakdown lane would also double as a protected on/off ramp lane for exits and entrances. Lastly, I would have a migrating speed limit based on traffic conditions and a pretty severe speed limit enforcement system where the soft cap would be whatever is listed on the speed limit signs and the hard cap would be five miles above that where they would be fined by camera systems. No cops with flashing lights to stall traffic with rubberneckers.

Pros - Snow, rainy conditions and all other weather effects would be taken out of the equation. No more plowing, no more deicing, no flooding, and because it will be underground, you don't have to worry about freezing conditions either. This would cut down maintenance on the highway by a ridiculous margin.

Cons - High cost and unclear 'mineral rights' laws for any residents home which would be tunneled under.
More Mass Transportation, europe style

/troll

IF we want to expand the highway, I'd start stacking/burying lanes or something to create more capacity. use the vertical dimension to expand. Thing is, more on ramps/off ramps to change levels of the highway would be needed.
I actually really like the idea of vertically stacked highways. Like I said, the biggest cause of traffic that I see is aggressive lane changing. Distracted, i.e. texting, on the phone, eating, drinking etc comes in a close second. Old people too
It would save you a lot of trouble if no one had cars.  If all of you used light rail or buses, organizing traffic patterns would be much simpler.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:


More Mass Transportation, europe style

/troll

IF we want to expand the highway, I'd start stacking/burying lanes or something to create more capacity. use the vertical dimension to expand. Thing is, more on ramps/off ramps to change levels of the highway would be needed.
I actually really like the idea of vertically stacked highways. Like I said, the biggest cause of traffic that I see is aggressive lane changing. Distracted, i.e. texting, on the phone, eating, drinking etc comes in a close second. Old people too
It would save you a lot of trouble if no one had cars.  If all of you used light rail or buses, organizing traffic patterns would be much simpler.
Freedom baby, freedom.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


I actually really like the idea of vertically stacked highways. Like I said, the biggest cause of traffic that I see is aggressive lane changing. Distracted, i.e. texting, on the phone, eating, drinking etc comes in a close second. Old people too
It would save you a lot of trouble if no one had cars.  If all of you used light rail or buses, organizing traffic patterns would be much simpler.
Freedom baby, freedom.
Arbeit Macht Frei
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6614|London, England
ah i dunno just build like 20 lanes here's some money go do it

usa #1!
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6490

JohnG@lt wrote:

Given these variables what ideas do you possess for creating a 'dream' highway system?
1973 style oil embargo
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5992|...
I'd leave the highways be and improve public transport :p
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England

dayarath wrote:

I'd leave the highways be and improve public transport :p
Transport is fine here, we just have union operators so the costs keep getting jacked sky high to the point that it's not worth commuting by bus or train anymore in lieu of having the freedom of driving. A monthly ticket for the railroad costs something like $350 now. A car payment is about the same.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5992|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I'd leave the highways be and improve public transport :p
Transport is fine here, we just have union operators so the costs keep getting jacked sky high to the point that it's not worth commuting by bus or train anymore in lieu of having the freedom of driving. A monthly ticket for the railroad costs something like $350 now. A car payment is about the same.
350 for a month? bah.

If we're going with improving highways, try and have it done in and around cities. It's an absolute disaster trying to fit everything in such a limited space.

Whether you try to go underground or over you're still gonna be stuck with nasty seemingly vital intersections that clog up everything.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I'd leave the highways be and improve public transport :p
Transport is fine here, we just have union operators so the costs keep getting jacked sky high to the point that it's not worth commuting by bus or train anymore in lieu of having the freedom of driving. A monthly ticket for the railroad costs something like $350 now. A car payment is about the same.
350 for a month? bah.

If we're going with improving highways, try and have it done in and around cities. It's an absolute disaster trying to fit everything in such a limited space.

Whether you try to go underground or over you're still gonna be stuck with nasty seemingly vital intersections that clog up everything.
Well, I'm thinking about Long Island and NYC specifically. There are about 8 million people that live on Long Island and/or Brooklyn/Queens (same island) and there are three main arteries that extend east and west, all of which are completely clogged come rush hour or when there is an ounce of construction or police activity. There just has to be a better way.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England
Ok, I was off by a little bit. To commute from my home town to Manhattan would cost $232.00 a month in railroad fares. Keep in mind that this would be a twice a day, Mon-Fri affair so I would still need a car otherwise.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5992|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Transport is fine here, we just have union operators so the costs keep getting jacked sky high to the point that it's not worth commuting by bus or train anymore in lieu of having the freedom of driving. A monthly ticket for the railroad costs something like $350 now. A car payment is about the same.
350 for a month? bah.

If we're going with improving highways, try and have it done in and around cities. It's an absolute disaster trying to fit everything in such a limited space.

Whether you try to go underground or over you're still gonna be stuck with nasty seemingly vital intersections that clog up everything.
Well, I'm thinking about Long Island and NYC specifically. There are about 8 million people that live on Long Island and/or Brooklyn/Queens (same island) and there are three main arteries that extend east and west, all of which are completely clogged come rush hour or when there is an ounce of construction or police activity. There just has to be a better way.
Off the top of my head, maybe cutting down on roads alltogheter?

F.ex splitting a city into sections of about 5-8 (or more) square miles each with one huge parking space. Having the roads simply function as main arteries and for everyone who needs to go inside the city park their car in one of these places and then walk to their desired location, removing any leftover roads and transforming them into giant pedestrian roads with small bicycle lanes (perhaps vertically stacked aswell).

Ofcourse because there also has to be transport for disabled people you could additionally use those carts at airports on the bicycle lanes aswell, I.E. this:

https://semjanniek.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/img_0916_1.jpg

And small similair carts for transport of heavy goods.

How's that sound? I believe that you could cut down on traffic clogs thanks to roundabouts, intersections and the like significantly.
inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England
That's never going to happen. It's a car culture and people do everything in their cars. Isolating people to certain densely populated geographic zones where they do all their shopping, living etc requires a lot more population density than there currently is.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5992|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

That's never going to happen. It's a car culture and people do everything in their cars. Isolating people to certain densely populated geographic zones where they do all their shopping, living etc requires a lot more population density than there currently is.
Inside a city I see cars more as a liability than something useful though, if you want to go shopping somewhere in a large city you'll end up parking your car way off from where you want to go. The main problem is the insane amount of roads interconnected in a city (and the lack of parking space ). That's simply the number one cause of traffic jams because what needs to be a fluid stream is continouosly interrupted.

If you build under or over you might be able to keep the large arteries that go in and out of the city somewhat clear but everything around it will still be slow and tedious.

I realize that the idea is a bit too futuristic but I can't see any other alternative to making an entire city's population move in a nice fluid motion. Except maybe having a flying car driven by a computer or an entire city compressed in a humongous skyscraper.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-10-11 14:21:18)

inane little opines
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6608|do not disturb

I don't know. I am going to install Sim City 4 to find out lol.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6584
Mass transit is a wonderful solution for highly urbanized areas, like London or New York.

Doesn't work worth a damn in agrarian areas. 
Y'know, flyover Red State places like Montana or Alaska.

In the rest of the US, the interstate highway system is more efficient than a bureaucratic mass transit authority.
10 ton bus, making 50 different stops, to everyone's destination - or 50 2 ton cars going just to the places they need to go.


My solution for improving the US highway infrastructure?
Spend more on initial construction of highways to begin with.

Current US practice is a fragile thin asphalt layer smeared over a marginal aggregate fill, that needs to be replaced/repaired every 5 years (by US Union workers... gee, go figure...doing a shitty job this time insures they get to come back and do it again 5 years from now, ad nauseum.)

Instead, go more towards the best German highway construction methods. 2x the asphalt, over 6" concrete, over a 3' to 5' flexbase aggregate foundation (properly layered, proper gradation of aggregate, properly compacted, etc)

As an added bonus, if your aggregate base layer is below the regional frost line (i.e. it's a sane 3' to 5' aggregate base, and not a bullshit 18" like current practice), you magically don't get frost heaves, and your road doesn't destroy itself every winter.

Put 2x the initial work  and 4x the materials into the project, to make it 8x to 16x as durable.  That is real economy.

Build the road correctly the first time, then move on to build another road correctly elsewhere.  You end up with better roads, happier & safer drivers, and more good roads supporting a healthier national infrastructure & economy.  Spend 4x the initial cost, build a road that only ever needs minor resurfacing for the next 50 years.  Let me reiterate the previous point, as it is the point: You will eventually have more safe, reliable, uncongested roads, than you would with the "rebuild the same shitty road every 5 years" model. By going with the initally more expensive, but long-term more durable road, You either end up with 2.5x the roads, or 40% of the total end cost for the same amount of roads  (4x cost / 10x the lifespan = 4/10 = 40%.  10/4 = 2.5)

It is a false economy to build a road for 1/4 the cost, when you're going to have to completely tear out and rebuild that shitty road 5 years from now.  The only people that benefit are the union highway workers, not the taxpayer, not the driver, not the national infrastructure, not the private companies that depend on reliable efficient mass transit for goods and employee mobility.

Oh, bonus round: with proper highways, you don't end up with terminal traffic jams every summer, when the same old highway construction crew is tearing up 1/2 the highway at some point along your commute.

Side Note: The above implied cancer is what is killing the US.  We have become so fixated on creating value for the stockholder through cost-cutting on cheaply made products, that we have forgotten about creating value for the customer in a durable lasting product. 
Think about it for a minute; would you rather have just the things you need, but have dependable quality things, in a well build house that was just the right size -or- have a McMansion made of shoddy material filled with disposable junk toys.

I have a steel perkolator coffee pot, at least 40 years old, that is still in the same good working order as the day I first remember seeing it on my grandmother's stove. I have also had a long line of modern coffee makers, each failing within 6 months to 5 years of purchase.  One good durable, dependable, quality piece of gear is a better buy than a landfill pile of crappy gear that will randomly fail at usually the worst possible moments.

Put it another way -
Ford or Mercedes?
2006 Boeing 767 maintained by Lufthansa or 1976 Ilyushin Il-86 maintained by Libyan Airlines?

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-10-11 14:36:12)

Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6660

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:


More Mass Transportation, europe style

/troll

IF we want to expand the highway, I'd start stacking/burying lanes or something to create more capacity. use the vertical dimension to expand. Thing is, more on ramps/off ramps to change levels of the highway would be needed.
I actually really like the idea of vertically stacked highways. Like I said, the biggest cause of traffic that I see is aggressive lane changing. Distracted, i.e. texting, on the phone, eating, drinking etc comes in a close second. Old people too
It would save you a lot of trouble if no one had cars.  If all of you used light rail or buses, organizing traffic patterns would be much simpler.
Costco will offer free delivery by then, I hope...
rdx-fx
...
+955|6584

Turquoise wrote:

It would save you a lot of trouble if no one had cars.  If all of you used light rail or buses, organizing traffic patterns would be much simpler.
Mass transit is a wonderful solution for highly urbanized areas, like London or New York.

In the rest of the US, the interstate highway system is more efficient than a bureaucratic mass transit authority.
10 ton bus, making 50 different stops, to everyone's destination - or 50 2 ton cars going just to the places they need to go.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5351|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:

Mass transit is a wonderful solution for highly urbanized areas, like London or New York.

Doesn't work worth a damn in agrarian areas. 
Y'know, flyover Red State places like Montana or Alaska.

In the rest of the US, the interstate highway system is more efficient than a bureaucratic mass transit authority.
10 ton bus, making 50 different stops, to everyone's destination - or 50 2 ton cars going just to the places they need to go.


My solution for improving the US highway infrastructure?
Spend more on initial construction of highways to begin with.

Current US practice is a fragile thin asphalt layer smeared over a marginal aggregate fill, that needs to be replaced/repaired every 5 years (by US Union workers... gee, go figure...doing a shitty job this time insures they get to come back and do it again 5 years from now, ad nauseum.)

Instead, go more towards the best German highway construction methods. 2x the asphalt, over 6" concrete, over a 3' to 5' flexbase aggregate foundation (properly layered, proper gradation of aggregate, properly compacted, etc)

As an added bonus, if your aggregate base layer is below the regional frost line (i.e. it's a sane 3' to 5' aggregate base, and not a bullshit 18" like current practice), you magically don't get frost heaves, and your road doesn't destroy itself every winter.

Put 2x the initial work  and 4x the materials into the project, to make it 8x to 16x as durable.  That is real economy.

Build the road correctly the first time, then move on to build another road correctly elsewhere.  You end up with better roads, happier & safer drivers, and more good roads supporting a healthier national infrastructure & economy.  Spend 4x the initial cost, build a road that only ever needs minor resurfacing for the next 50 years.  Let me reiterate the previous point, as it is the point: You will eventually have more safe, reliable, uncongested roads, than you would with the "rebuild the same shitty road every 5 years" model. By going with the initally more expensive, but long-term more durable road, You either end up with 2.5x the roads, or 40% of the total end cost for the same amount of roads  (4x cost / 10x the lifespan = 4/10 = 40%.  10/4 = 2.5)

It is a false economy to build a road for 1/4 the cost, when you're going to have to completely tear out and rebuild that shitty road 5 years from now.  The only people that benefit are the union highway workers, not the taxpayer, not the driver, not the national infrastructure, not the private companies that depend on reliable efficient mass transit for goods and employee mobility.

Oh, bonus round: with proper highways, you don't end up with terminal traffic jams every summer, when the same old highway construction crew is tearing up 1/2 the highway at some point along your commute.

Side Note: The above implied cancer is what is killing the US.  We have become so fixated on creating value for the stockholder through cost-cutting on cheaply made products, that we have forgotten about creating value for the customer in a durable lasting product. 
Think about it for a minute; would you rather have just the things you need, but have dependable quality things, in a well build house that was just the right size -or- have a McMansion made of shoddy material filled with disposable junk toys.

I have a steel perkolator coffee pot, at least 40 years old, that is still in the same good working order as the day I first remember seeing it on my grandmother's stove. I have also had a long line of modern coffee makers, each failing within 6 months to 5 years of purchase.  One good durable, dependable, quality piece of gear is a better buy than a landfill pile of crappy gear that will randomly fail at usually the worst possible moments.

Put it another way -
Ford or Mercedes?
2006 Boeing 767 maintained by Lufthansa or 1976 Ilyushin Il-86 maintained by Libyan Airlines?
You can still buy quality that lasts. Most people choose to buy cheap disposable crap that they'll end up replacing every few years. It's what the consumer wants, not necessarily what companies wish to create. They want every kitchen gadget under the sun even though it means sacrificing quality for quantity. Fuck 'em, they get what they pay for.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6660

JohnG@lt wrote:

You can still buy quality that lasts. Most people choose to buy cheap disposable crap that they'll end up replacing every few years. It's what the consumer wants, not necessarily what companies wish to create. They want every kitchen gadget under the sun even though it means sacrificing quality for quantity. Fuck 'em, they get what they pay for.
You can't buy grandma's Kitchen-Aid new anymore.  Pro grade doesn't even compare to the pre-plastic era.

I'm referring to consumer grade, not industrial/commercial grade.

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