cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6688|NJ
http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-guns



In response to a flood of Facebook and YouTube videos that depict police abuse, a new trend in law enforcement is gaining popularity. In at least three states, it is now illegal to record any on-duty police officer.

Even if the encounter involves you and may be necessary to your defense, and even if the recording is on a public street where no expectation of privacy exists.

The legal justification for arresting the "shooter" rests on existing wiretapping or eavesdropping laws, with statutes against obstructing law enforcement sometimes cited. Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland are among the 12 states in which all parties must consent for a recording to be legal unless, as with TV news crews, it is obvious to all that recording is underway. Since the police do not consent, the camera-wielder can be arrested. Most all-party-consent states also include an exception for recording in public places where "no expectation of privacy exists" (Illinois does not) but in practice this exception is not being recognized.

Massachusetts attorney June Jensen represented Simon Glik who was arrested for such a recording. She explained, "[T]he statute has been misconstrued by Boston police. You could go to the Boston Common and snap pictures and record if you want." Legal scholar and professor Jonathan Turley agrees, "The police are basing this claim on a ridiculous reading of the two-party consent surveillance law - requiring all parties to consent to being taped. I have written in the area of surveillance law and can say that this is utter nonsense."

The courts, however, disagree. A few weeks ago, an Illinois judge rejected a motion to dismiss an eavesdropping charge against Christopher Drew, who recorded his own arrest for selling one-dollar artwork on the streets of Chicago. Although the misdemeanor charges of not having a peddler's license and peddling in a prohibited area were dropped, Drew is being prosecuted for illegal recording, a Class I felony punishable by 4 to 15 years in prison.

In 2001, when Michael Hyde was arrested for criminally violating the state's electronic surveillance law - aka recording a police encounter - the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld his conviction 4-2. In dissent, Chief Justice Margaret Marshall stated, "Citizens have a particularly important role to play when the official conduct at issue is that of the police. Their role cannot be performed if citizens must fear criminal reprisals…." (Note: In some states it is the audio alone that makes the recording illegal.)

The selection of "shooters" targeted for prosecution do, indeed, suggest a pattern of either reprisal or an attempt to intimidate.

Glik captured a police action on his cellphone to document what he considered to be excessive force. He was not only arrested, his phone was also seized.

On his website Drew wrote, "Myself and three other artists who documented my actions tried for two months to get the police to arrest me for selling art downtown so we could test the Chicago peddlers license law. The police hesitated for two months because they knew it would mean a federal court case. With this felony charge they are trying to avoid this test and ruin me financially and stain my credibility."

Hyde used his recording to file a harassment complaint against the police. After doing so, he was criminally charged.

In short, recordings that are flattering to the police - an officer kissing a baby or rescuing a dog - will almost certainly not result in prosecution even if they are done without all-party consent. The only people who seem prone to prosecution are those who embarrass or confront the police, or who somehow challenge the law. If true, then the prosecutions are a form of social control to discourage criticism of the police or simple dissent.

A recent arrest in Maryland is both typical and disturbing.

On March 5, 24-year-old Anthony John Graber III's motorcycle was pulled over for speeding. He is currently facing criminal charges for a video he recorded on his helmet-mounted camera during the traffic stop.

The case is disturbing because:

1) Graber was not arrested immediately. Ten days after the encounter, he posted some of he material to YouTube, and it embarrassed Trooper J. D. Uhler. The trooper, who was in plainclothes and an unmarked car, jumped out waving a gun and screaming. Only later did Uhler identify himself as a police officer. When the YouTube video was discovered the police got a warrant against Graber, searched his parents' house (where he presumably lives), seized equipment, and charged him with a violation of wiretapping law.

2) Baltimore criminal defense attorney Steven D. Silverman said he had never heard of the Maryland wiretap law being used in this manner. In other words, Maryland has joined the expanding trend of criminalizing the act of recording police abuse. Silverman surmises, "It's more [about] ‘contempt of cop' than the violation of the wiretapping law."

3) Police spokesman Gregory M. Shipley is defending the pursuit of charges against Graber, denying that it is "some capricious retribution" and citing as justification the particularly egregious nature of Graber's traffic offenses. Oddly, however, the offenses were not so egregious as to cause his arrest before the video appeared.

Almost without exception, police officials have staunchly supported the arresting officers. This argues strongly against the idea that some rogue officers are overreacting or that a few cops have something to hide. "Arrest those who record the police" appears to be official policy, and it's backed by the courts.

Carlos Miller at the Photography Is Not A Crime website offers an explanation: "For the second time in less than a month, a police officer was convicted from evidence obtained from a videotape. The first officer to be convicted was New York City Police Officer Patrick Pogan, who would never have stood trial had it not been for a video posted on Youtube showing him body slamming a bicyclist before charging him with assault on an officer. The second officer to be convicted was Ottawa Hills (Ohio) Police Officer Thomas White, who shot a motorcyclist in the back after a traffic stop, permanently paralyzing the 24-year-old man."

When the police act as though cameras were the equivalent of guns pointed at them, there is a sense in which they are correct. Cameras have become the most effective weapon that ordinary people have to protect against and to expose police abuse. And the police want it to stop.

Happily, even as the practice of arresting "shooters" expands, there are signs of effective backlash. At least one Pennsylvania jurisdiction has reaffirmed the right to video in public places. As part of a settlement with ACLU attorneys who represented an arrested "shooter," the police in Spring City and East Vincent Township adopted a written policy allowing the recording of on-duty policemen.

As journalist Radley Balko declares, "State legislatures should consider passing laws explicitly making it legal to record on-duty law enforcement officials."




This is just crazy, one of the only defenses the american people have against police corruption is the cost and ability to film them. This is horse shit.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6521|Global Command
police state
cdailey2142
Flesh Peddler
+14|5055
I don't see how the police can stop people from filming. Anyone can use a phone now a days to record the police.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6659

Having served as a juror in criminal cases, I would never have prosecuted someone for recording in public on the examples noted above.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio
once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
Surgeons
U shud proabbly f off u fat prik
+3,097|6481|Gogledd Cymru

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
If you don't actually go into the operating theatre and the device isn't interfering with any of the support systems, electronics they're using, I don't see the problem.

It isn't illegal is it?
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6688|NJ

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
Actually alot if not all surgeries are filmed, to document and to protect the doctor. They also have observation rooms that the public can go into and observe what happens.
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|5905|...

Surgeons wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
If you don't actually go into the operating theatre and the device isn't interfering with any of the support systems, electronics they're using, I don't see the problem.

It isn't illegal is it?
I don't think it is illegal...but it could be hospital policy.  It is most likely to prevent lawsuits.

but yes...as stated above...some hospitals have a policy of taping their surgeries. But the tapes are hospital property and would probably be used only to protect the hospital.

Last edited by tuckergustav (2010-07-29 12:35:14)

...
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

cpt.fass1 wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
Actually alot if not all surgeries are filmed, to document and to protect the doctor. They also have observation rooms that the public can go into and observe what happens.
no....take the trauma ward...they do not film in any public hospital i have been in.  so no, you are wrong.  forget the surgery example.  you get my point.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-07-29 12:35:24)

11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

Surgeons wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
If you don't actually go into the operating theatre and the device isn't interfering with any of the support systems, electronics they're using, I don't see the problem.

It isn't illegal is it?
no hospital will let you just walk in a film at will.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6688|NJ
Obviously you have to have permission but it's still a different thing. Public domain laws are what allow you to be filmed walking down the street and it not violate your right to privacy, what does that have to do with filming a Public Figure on a Public street?

Interfering with a police officer is something completely different, but if you're standing back and allowing him to do his job but protecting the civilian. You should not be allowed to have charges pressed against you, should you?
mikkel
Member
+383|6593

11 Bravo wrote:

Surgeons wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

once again why cant i go into a public hospital and film doctors performing surgery?
If you don't actually go into the operating theatre and the device isn't interfering with any of the support systems, electronics they're using, I don't see the problem.

It isn't illegal is it?
no hospital will let you just walk in a film at will.
Are you honestly suggesting that operating rooms used for invasive surgery share the same kind of expectation of privacy as the side of the road does when you're being pulled over by a cop?
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Surgeons wrote:

If you don't actually go into the operating theatre and the device isn't interfering with any of the support systems, electronics they're using, I don't see the problem.

It isn't illegal is it?
no hospital will let you just walk in a film at will.
Are you honestly suggesting that operating rooms used for invasive surgery share the same kind of expectation of privacy as the side of the road does when you're being pulled over by a cop?
i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-07-29 13:05:57)

mikkel
Member
+383|6593

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


no hospital will let you just walk in a film at will.
Are you honestly suggesting that operating rooms used for invasive surgery share the same kind of expectation of privacy as the side of the road does when you're being pulled over by a cop?
i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny
Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:


Are you honestly suggesting that operating rooms used for invasive surgery share the same kind of expectation of privacy as the side of the road does when you're being pulled over by a cop?
i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny
Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
mikkel
Member
+383|6593

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny
Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
What does that have to do with filming on-duty police officers?
nlsme1
Member
+32|5409

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny
Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
So, you go to the next hospital. You don't really get to choose the cop.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

nlsme1 wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:


Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
So, you go to the next hospital. You don't really get to choose the cop.
next hopital will say no also.  every single one will say no.  then call the cops.  then i could film the cops.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:


Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
What does that have to do with filming on-duty police officers?
because it has been discussed many times on here and in the public.   so, instead of the same merry go round discussion i want to know why nobody cares as much about other issues of public safety.
mikkel
Member
+383|6593

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
What does that have to do with filming on-duty police officers?
because it has been discussed many times on here and in the public.   so, instead of the same merry go round discussion i want to know why nobody cares as much about other issues of public safety.
Well then make a new thread so that this one isn't clogged up with a dozen posts trying to make on-topic sense of what you're saying.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:


What does that have to do with filming on-duty police officers?
because it has been discussed many times on here and in the public.   so, instead of the same merry go round discussion i want to know why nobody cares as much about other issues of public safety.
Well then make a new thread so that this one isn't clogged up with a dozen posts trying to make on-topic sense of what you're saying.
no its valid to the for/against argument imo.  so shut the fuck up for a change.
mikkel
Member
+383|6593

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

What does that have to do with filming on-duty police officers?
because it has been discussed many times on here and in the public.   so, instead of the same merry go round discussion i want to know why nobody cares as much about other issues of public safety.
Well then make a new thread so that this one isn't clogged up with a dozen posts trying to make on-topic sense of what you're saying.
no its valid to the for/against argument imo.  so shut the fuck up for a change.

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


i am saying doctors kill and injure more people due to fucking up versus cops therefore should be under the same public scrutiny
Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
Tell you what, how about you lay off the pointless insults and decide what you want to argue?
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio

mikkel wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Well then make a new thread so that this one isn't clogged up with a dozen posts trying to make on-topic sense of what you're saying.
no its valid to the for/against argument imo.  so shut the fuck up for a change.

11 Bravo wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Absolutely. Why are you citing an example of a lack of public scrutiny in one sector to argue against allowing for public scrutiny in another? Are you for it or against it?
im not arguing that.  i am saying if the patient gave me permission the hospital would still not allow me to film.  THAT is my point.
Tell you what, how about you lay off the pointless insults and decide what you want to argue?
you dont get it. 

i am saying if its ok to vid cops then it should be ok for me to flim doctors.  its quite simple.  i would say yes we can film cops if you remove restrictions to other things.  if not, i say no.

so stop the lecturing.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-07-29 16:04:13)

mikkel
Member
+383|6593
I seem to have understood it just fine. You're saying now that you're arguing what you denied arguing two posts ago.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5229|Cleveland, Ohio
i dont think you did

and save the quote trees and highlights.  just move on.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-07-29 16:19:03)

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