BF2S Forums France to dismante illegal Roma camps

Europe has a slow fuse.

You people really should be less racist and more accepting of their culture. They're just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

You people really should be less racist and more accepting of their culture. They're just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

when i see a single gypsi working, paying taxes, leading a lawful life and generally behaving like a human being - i'll consider what you said.

When someone says anything remotely like that about a group of people here in the States, they get labeled exactly as I "labeled" you all above.

Of course, I wouldn't go so far as to say they don't behave like human beings here...but there are parallels.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

when i see a single gypsi working, paying taxes, leading a lawful life and generally behaving like a human being - i'll consider what you said.

When someone says anything remotely like that about a group of people here in the States, they get labeled exactly as I "labeled" you all above.

Of course, I wouldn't go so far as to say they don't behave like human beings here...but there are parallels.

gee... you can label whoever you want however you like, man. the fact of the matter - you won't find a gypsi in russia behaving the way i described. but, in unlikely even that you manage to find one - come back to me.

Aaand you've completely missed the point.

Good Lord.

Should've used [sarcasm] tags.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't remember them being given a slice of someone elses country and U$10bn a year to live on.

Well, good for them! Here's a 1950's thumbs up. (not sarcasm)

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Good Lord.

Should've used [sarcasm] tags.

Like I said, its not so simple, the Roma are a distinct culture and possibly need to be cut a little slack - same as the jews, american indians, australian abos and so on.

OTOH Some of them are just thieving scumbags, same as the jews, american indians, australian abos and so on.

Hitler tried to wipe them out but I don't remember them being given a slice of someone elses country and U$10bn a year to live on.

I was referring to the current debate going on in the US regarding illegal immigration. Not everything must devolve into an anti-Israel rant, Dilbert.

I think Europeans in general understand the importance of borders and immigration limits.  While it is true that it's hypocritical for them to call us racist when they have their own prejudices, I think they have a better understanding of what it really means to earn your citizenship than about half of America does.  Half of America seems to be perfectly fine with letting anyone and everyone in -- which is very unrealistic.

While it is true that our illegals tend to have a much better work ethic than Gypsies, they bring crime and poverty with them just the same.

On the flipside, we seem to have a much less practical (and less open) work visa system than most of Europe.

turqs been moving to canada for years now

As for the Romani, if they're breaking laws, prosecute them. If they're not, who cares?

JohnG@lt wrote:

Again and again you show a complete disregard for freedom. Please, gtfo already. Move to Canada or Europe. You're such a damn control freak. Get over your hubris.

I'd rather disregard "freedom" than reality.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Penning people in behind arbitrary borders and having their life defined by something they had no control over (where they were born) is completely asinine. I only get one life and if I can make a better life for myself in China or Brazil or Germany what right do you have to stop me? Such a retardedly backwards concept.

We're a nation of immigrants whose ancestors came to this country to find a better life. You wouldn't be here if your ancestors hadn't made the decision to pack up their belongings, take a chance, and travel here. Now you're ever so eager to slam the door shut behind you because you're terrified of competition. Stop being so mediocre in your life and you'll have nothing to fear, trust me.

So, again, why not ship people in from Sudan, the DRC, Sierra Leone, etc.?  There are plenty of people throughout the developing world that would love to live here.  No one disputes that.  I'd bet you that about 75% of the people in countries like these would move here if they had the money.  Even if there were no borders and no laws restricting their movements, many wouldn't be able to make it here because of the expense.  So "penning people in behind arbitrary borders" is even a natural factor of the market.  What makes expense anymore justified than laws?

The point is, you say I have hubris for wanting to put certain restrictions in place, but the same market you worship has its own restrictions on immigration.  Your high and mighty sense of fairness in letting people have the freedom to move anywhere is still limited by simple facts of reality like expense.

You're the one always citing "life isn't fair."  Yet here you are trying to pretend that a completely open border policy is.

When it comes to this personal mediocrity vs. exceptional debate, you think you're special, but you're not.  You're just a number -- just like everyone else.  You can dismiss this as Jante's Law, but it's also reality.

The only reason you have your viewpoint on the market is because of an artificial shortage created by the market you benefit from.  You're an engineer, and there would be plenty more of them for you to compete against if everyone could afford to become one.  There are other professions that are similarly inflated in their value by artificial shortages created by institutions of learning -- like in medicine.  There would be far more doctors out there if medical school wasn't so expensive and if the AMA didn't actively limit how many openings are available throughout our system.

You can talk of competition all you want, but until the market is truly open in every possible facet and there are no people in charge that limit their own competition, your argument isn't valid.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Again and again you show a complete disregard for freedom. Please, gtfo already. Move to Canada or Europe. You're such a damn control freak. Get over your hubris.

I'd rather disregard "freedom" than reality.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Penning people in behind arbitrary borders and having their life defined by something they had no control over (where they were born) is completely asinine. I only get one life and if I can make a better life for myself in China or Brazil or Germany what right do you have to stop me? Such a retardedly backwards concept.

We're a nation of immigrants whose ancestors came to this country to find a better life. You wouldn't be here if your ancestors hadn't made the decision to pack up their belongings, take a chance, and travel here. Now you're ever so eager to slam the door shut behind you because you're terrified of competition. Stop being so mediocre in your life and you'll have nothing to fear, trust me.

So, again, why not ship people in from Sudan, the DRC, Sierra Leone, etc.?  There are plenty of people throughout the developing world that would love to live here.  No one disputes that.  I'd bet you that about 75% of the people in countries like these would move here if they had the money.  Even if there were no borders and no laws restricting their movements, many wouldn't be able to make it here because of the expense.  So "penning people in behind arbitrary borders" is even a natural factor of the market.  What makes expense anymore justified than laws?

The point is, you say I have hubris for wanting to put certain restrictions in place, but the same market you worship has its own restrictions on immigration.  Your high and mighty sense of fairness in letting people have the freedom to move anywhere is still limited by simple facts of reality like expense.

You're the one always citing "life isn't fair."  Yet here you are trying to pretend that a completely open border policy is.

When it comes to this personal mediocrity vs. exceptional debate, you think you're special, but you're not.  You're just a number -- just like everyone else.  You can dismiss this as Jante's Law, but it's also reality.

The only reason you have your viewpoint on the market is because of an artificial shortage created by the market you benefit from.  You're an engineer, and there would be plenty more of them for you to compete against if everyone could afford to become one.  There are other professions that are similarly inflated in their value by artificial shortages created by institutions of learning -- like in medicine.  There would be far more doctors out there if medical school wasn't so expensive and if the AMA didn't actively limit how many openings are available throughout our system.

You can talk of competition all you want, but until the market is truly open in every possible facet and there are no people in charge that limit their own competition, your argument isn't valid.

How exactly is my profession limited? The only limit on it is a lack of people who enjoy math. Anyone can go to school to become an engineer, very few people want to go to school to study mathematics to the extent that I have for my degree. As for the cost, well, I could've taken out loans, I chose to go into the Army for the GI Bill. Both of those options are available to everyone. In essence, the only bar to entry for my profession is simple ability and drive.

As for you saying we should import anyone that wants to come here, well, if they can't work and save up enough to buy a plane ticket they would end up just as poor here as they were there so what's the point?

Lastly, the under current in every single one of your posts on policy is a desire for protectionism. The only reason anyone would tout protectionism is fear. I'm not afraid of the world. I'm confident in my abilities and know that I will succeed in life. You obviously lack confidence. You should work on that.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

How exactly is my profession limited? The only limit on it is a lack of people who enjoy math. Anyone can go to school to become an engineer, very few people want to go to school to study mathematics to the extent that I have for my degree. As for the cost, well, I could've taken out loans, I chose to go into the Army for the GI Bill. Both of those options are available to everyone. In essence, the only bar to entry for my profession is simple ability and drive.

You benefited from the GI Bill and yet you're against government intervention in helping people to succeed in life.  Ironic.  You went to public school too, didn't you?

Yes, indeed I do benefit from the GI Bill. It was built into my contract when I signed up and is really nothing more than deferred salary. Do you feel that people shouldn't be compensated for work they do? Good luck finding people to defend your home if you're not willing to pay them.

Public school until high school, private school for high school. Irrelevant since my parents funded the school district via property taxes. Even if there hadn't been a public school they would've paid for me to attend whatever was available. Education is important.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

As for you saying we should import anyone that wants to come here, well, if they can't work and save up enough to buy a plane ticket they would end up just as poor here as they were there so what's the point?

Really?  How is then that people living right next to us can come in as they like?  Is there something special about Mexicans that they don't have to adhere to the same standards?  Is the simple fact that they live right next to us worthy of letting any of them in but letting the fate of Africans be decided by the price of a plane ticket?

This is quite possibly the dumbest argument anyone has ever made on this forum. I don't care if people want to walk from Chile, Canada or walk from South Africa up through Asia, catch a boat at the Bering Sea and then walk down from Alaska. If people want something that bad why should we deny them? There's a vast gulf between actively aiding them by putting them on a military transport plane and simply leaving the borders open.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Lastly, the under current in every single one of your posts on policy is a desire for protectionism. The only reason anyone would tout protectionism is fear. I'm not afraid of the world. I'm confident in my abilities and know that I will succeed in life. You obviously lack confidence. You should work on that.

It's not that I lack confidence...   I lack trust.  I know how the market works.  It's about getting as much as you can out of someone while giving back as little as possible.  As long as humans vex and oppress each other, I will most certainly prefer a certain amount of protectionism in the market, because of how Machiavellian human nature can be.

If everyone took as much as they could and gave as little as they could in return the entire system would've collapsed a long time ago. The entire concept of free markets is built on symbiotic relationships that people form in their daily lives. The guy that owns the local deli requires my business so he can pay his rent, clear his inventory and make a profit. He can charge whatever he wants for his goods up to a certain point but past that point and he loses business. It's in his own best interests to keep his prices reasonable so he can maintain a steady income.

What you describe is simple cannibalism. Cannibalism is in no ones best interest because eventually you run out of people to eat, then you starve.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-07-30 14:11:26)