BF2S Forums June 6th

Trotskygrad wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the KV/T-34 was better than the Sherman, and that the Ppsh-41 was better than the thompson. It's all about the cars...

And the trucks and the planes and the locomotives and the...

cars include trucks... Locomotives, sure. Planes? nah. IL-2 > P51 for ground attack any day.

Someone needs to read up on the Lend-Lease Act and what the USSR got out of it.

Decent summary: http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/lendlease.htm

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

soviet army had "inflicted" those "great defeats". by the time the free and the brave arrived the victory over nazi germany had already been assured. your troops really came there to stop soviets from overrunning the whole bloody europe and to claim a portion of the war spoils.
but you can of course keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel comfortable.

Let's see how far Soviet Russia would've gotten without Lend-Lease equipment. Pretty sure it was a team effort, comrade.

"team effort"? ah, you mean that episode when the free and the brave were sitting back doing what they do best - lending money to those, who did actual fighting? - sure, it helped. thank you for reminding me of our debt, kind sir. don't worry, we intend to pay you back eventually.

Nice. As if that was the point. It wasn't money that was lent, but rather warfighting equipment. Equipment that Russia (and England and others) did not have and did not have the capacity to produce due to war losses at the time. Equipment that got Russia "over the hump" until she could get her industry re-distributed out of reach of Germany and back on its feet.

And in 42-43, we were fighting too...on multiple fronts. Don't know if you realized that.

BALTINS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Let's see how far Soviet Russia would've gotten without Lend-Lease equipment. Pretty sure it was a team effort, comrade.

"team effort"? ah, you mean that episode when the free and the brave were sitting back doing what they do best - lending money to those, who did actual fighting? - sure, it helped. thank you for reminding me of our debt, kind sir. don't worry, we intend to pay you back eventually.

Umm, remind me again what did the Soviet Union do while Germany was invading half of Europe, you know, that boring part before the Great Patriotic War begun in 1941?

very nice.  +1

Not that the US was too entusiastic about WW2 before Pearl either ... didn't they enter the war after the Russians come think of it?

Uzique and Varegg both have excellent points. The pacifict/isolationist movements in the US were quite strong, particularly pre-WW2. The Roosevelt administration would've entered WW2 proper well before Pearl Harbor if not for the political opposition of those movements in both the public and Congress.

The best he could do to fight the Axis absent a direct attack on the US was Lend-Lease and similar support.

nukchebi0 wrote:

Primarily because they got attacked after the Russians, but yes.

BALTINS wrote:

Umm, remind me again what did the Soviet Union do while Germany was invading half of Europe, you know, that boring part before the Great Patriotic War begun in 1941?

I seem to remember them trying to land grab Finland and part of Poland.

I guess most people only have heard that. But there's more, in 1940 they invaded and occupied the three Baltic countries, installed a puppet government, killed thousands and deported tens of thousands of people to siberian work camps.

BALTINS wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Primarily because they got attacked after the Russians, but yes.

BALTINS wrote:

Umm, remind me again what did the Soviet Union do while Germany was invading half of Europe, you know, that boring part before the Great Patriotic War begun in 1941?

I seem to remember them trying to land grab Finland and part of Poland.

I guess most people only have heard that. But there's more, in 1940 they invaded and occupied the three Baltic countries, installed a puppet government, killed thousands and deported tens of thousands of people to siberian work camps.

I knew that as well, but I think the highly publicized examples are enough to prove the point.

jord wrote:

This describes my feelings quite well on Nations and Governments.

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=109344

Didn't get the credit it deserved, gg braddock.

Genuinely good post that. Saving a link.

BALTINS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Let's see how far Soviet Russia would've gotten without Lend-Lease equipment. Pretty sure it was a team effort, comrade.

"team effort"? ah, you mean that episode when the free and the brave were sitting back doing what they do best - lending money to those, who did actual fighting? - sure, it helped. thank you for reminding me of our debt, kind sir. don't worry, we intend to pay you back eventually.

Umm, remind me again what did the Soviet Union do while Germany was invading half of Europe, you know, that boring part before the Great Patriotic War begun in 1941?

Scorching and burning. Starving the Germans. Smashing them at Stalingrad. Millions of russian civilians died. Russian men and women fought in the war. Without the scorched Earth policy, Germany would have won. Russia was crippling themselves in order to cripple germany more. That deserves respect.

They shook hands a lot. Actually, by making the treaty with Hitler to not fight each other (even though Hitler broke it), that bought Stalin time to build his army. He wasn't stupid, he knew Hitler wanted Russia. So he prepared himself. Granted, that's not a lot, but he got his country ready. Even if many of the weapons sucked. And there were shortages. But he made weapons.

pace51 wrote:

They shook hands a lot. Actually, by making the treaty with Hitler to not fight each other (even though Hitler broke it), that bought Stalin time to build his army. He wasn't stupid, he knew Hitler wanted Russia. So he prepared himself. Granted, that's not a lot, but he got his country ready. Even if many of the weapons sucked. And there were shortages. But he made weapons.

Pretty sure Russia was widely unprepared for the Invasions that took place in September '41. Hence why the initial phases of Barbarossa were so successful.  Pace he was referring to Russia's pact with the German government and their occupations of Finland and Poland.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Let's see how far Soviet Russia would've gotten without Lend-Lease equipment. Pretty sure it was a team effort, comrade.

"team effort"? ah, you mean that episode when the free and the brave were sitting back doing what they do best - lending money to those, who did actual fighting? - sure, it helped. thank you for reminding me of our debt, kind sir. don't worry, we intend to pay you back eventually.

Nice. As if that was the point. It wasn't money that was lent, but rather warfighting equipment. Equipment that Russia (and England and others) did not have and did not have the capacity to produce due to war losses at the time. Equipment that got Russia "over the hump" until she could get her industry re-distributed out of reach of Germany and back on its feet.

the point was - ussr stood between a good number of those people, who now cry "commies weren't any better than nazies" and total annihilation. the point was there would not have been slavs, gipsies, asians, jews and allah knows whom else left in the larger part of the world if ussr didn't stand up to the menace of nazi germany. and what have usa been doing? - oh yeah, lending stuff, fixing their failing economy, getting eveybody indebted to them so that they could coerce them into various economical and political deals later. did lend-lease help - certainly. it was crucial to the soviet union's war effort, especially in the beginning of the war, but it only amounted for about 5% of the total equipment manufactured and used by ussr during the war.

f i v e
p e r c e n t

that was your part in "team effort", which, btw, we still have to pay you back for.

FEOS wrote:

And in 42-43, we were fighting too...on multiple fronts. Don't know if you realized that.

just not with nazi germany and not where it actually mattered. but, yeah, usa did fight some. even lost 200 000+ of their men. while soviet union lost thirty five millions.

so please, puh-lease, flush the "team effort" and "united nations" with the rest of your crap. ussr won the war against nazi germany, with some help from the allies. end of story.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-06-10 09:05:20)