BF2S Forums Mosque to be built by Ground Zero?

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

im not making any grand statements or edicts about islam... im referring to and relying on theological and islamic scholarship.

and I am relying on ACTUAL events, ACTUAL quotes, ACTUAL stats, and ACTUAL practices conducted within Islam.

you have to accept, though, that a certain degree of difference and personal enmity exists because of cultural and social differences.

in the modern age, the key is to have respect and understanding for differing cultures- rather than fear and revulsion.

there is no one 'grand' way to conduct a society; there is no 'right' way. there's nothing to say that sharia law and executions in islamic countries are any more brutal and reprehensible than executions in the texas prison system. we simply don't have a high-horse-- and that's not an argument over who is more morally 'superior', it's the plain fact that we have grown from two very different sets of ideologies and philosophical foundations, and consequently both of our cultures are very different and practically impossible to compare. human standards, rights and beliefs are relative to the society that they come from, and we cannot 'project' our ideals and our standards onto other nations and cultures, because that comes with the implicit suggestion that we have things 'right' and that we are doing things the 'correct' way. that's a very arrogant and, most importantly, the WRONG way to look at the world. it's back 10 pages all-over-again to my points and arguments about orientalism. our habit of viewing the orient as some alien, barbaric thing stems as much from our own fear and insecurity (the 'us' and 'them' paradigm) as it does from general ignorance.

Uzique wrote:

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

im not making any grand statements or edicts about islam... im referring to and relying on theological and islamic scholarship.

and I am relying on ACTUAL events, ACTUAL quotes, ACTUAL stats, and ACTUAL practices conducted within Islam.

you have to accept, though, that a certain degree of difference and personal enmity exists because of cultural and social differences.

in the modern age, the key is to have respect and understanding for differing cultures- rather than fear and revulsion.

there is no one 'grand' way to conduct a society; there is no 'right' way. there's nothing to say that sharia law and executions in islamic countries are any more brutal and reprehensible than executions in the texas prison system. we simply don't have a high-horse-- and that's not an argument over who is more morally 'superior', it's the plain fact that we have grown from two very different sets of ideologies and philosophical foundations, and consequently both of our cultures are very different and practically impossible to compare. human standards, rights and beliefs are relative to the society that they come from, and we cannot 'project' our ideals and our standards onto other nations and cultures, because that comes with the implicit suggestion that we have things 'right' and that we are doing things the 'correct' way. that's a very arrogant and, most importantly, the WRONG way to look at the world. it's back 10 pages all-over-again to my points and arguments about orientalism. our habit of viewing the orient as some alien, barbaric thing stems as much from our own fear and insecurity (the 'us' and 'them' paradigm) as it does from general ignorance.

I do accept this now accept my desire to keep it the fuck out of western society.

Last edited by lowing (2010-07-02 13:21:01)

Uzique wrote:

websites like that exist as a result of so much contemporary confusion about the subject, really.

in the wake of the terror attacks and a huge ideological conflict embedded in the 'war on terror', there are lots of common misconceptions and half-truths being spread around about 'islam': and they take root and grow and gain credibility because people are afraid, they are in fear of 'terror' (both because of actual attacks and the further scaremongering by western governments in order to fund and find financial/moral backing to their military campaigns) and so they're more susceptible to believe negative rumours and bad-press about islam. im not surprised at all, considering the last decade or so, that all of these imams and clerics feel the need to try and assert some 'correct', 'factual' evidence into all this mass-hysteria, islamophobia and confusion. the terrorist attacks had a hugely devastating effect on the reputation of islam, correct... but that is the fault of the terrorists, and of the media-world for unprofessionally neglecting their responsibility to ALWAYS distinguish between 'islam'/'muslims' and 'extremism'/'fanaticism'. the war that has developed since then has become such an ideological clash - western democracy against middle-eastern dictatorship - that many people have started to accept the blind assumption that islam and the muslim faith are somehow sharing in all of this inherent 'evil' and criminality. it is not.

there are lots of demystifying and factual websites about christianity and judaism on the internet, too, by the way. just we are not looking for them.

Again it is more than terrorism that is addressed. It is practices and laws associated with Islam that is also addressed. It is intolerant and it is violent. Post something to the contrary please, and not just opinion saying it is non-violent and tolerant. Show just how peaceful and tolerant Islam is in practice as well as its interpretations.

Uzique wrote:

stigma is as much the product of the ignorance of the generators as it is incriminating of the accused...

was the stigma about negroes in the 1950's correct - did they speak for something inherent about the negro? or did they say more about the ignorances, misinformations and fears of the white people that created them? what about the stigma about jews in 1940's germany? was that founded in anything? my first post on this page suggests possibly why these stigmas exist now, in this contemporary-age... and of course, the terrorist attacks have everything to do with that. but that doesn't mean they correctly frame the entire muslim population.

big differeence, none of those examples were steeped in anything factual.

Islam has its own laws, its own writtings its own teachings, its own actions, its own practices, its own leaders and some of its own people as evidence against it.

Uzique wrote:

yes, and as for the things addressed besides terrorism- i think a lot of it can be attributed to what academics call orientalism:

that is, briefly what i summarized in my post that you agreed with. some of it is down to purely cultural differences, huge though they may be.

I addressed it. I do not give a fuck what Islam does to their own people. I want Islam and its bullshit ideology to stay out of western society. there is not place for it.

Islam encapsulates, inequality, intolerance, religion as the basis of govt., the lack of freedom of speech, expression, and press. None of these things belong in our society.

and what is different about islamophobia?

rational people are disgusted by the actions perpetrated by extremist, fundamentalist islamics... a very small minority.

'islamophobia' is a phrase used because people's fears of these fringe-groups often (ignorantly) affects islam as a faith, as a whole.

gays and women were second-class citizens in the west until recently - and we CLAIMED to be free, equal and 'liberal' democracies. hypocritical and full of internal conflicts: we are in no place to judge and look-down our noses at islamic cultures. and, as i said, their societies and state structures are very different, but there's nothing to say that they're 'wrong' and we are by implication 'right'; people in islamic countries are devoted muslims and live in a system that they are, evidently by and large, happy with. if not, then they would naturally revolt or reform from within, or flee as refugees or simply - by having the freedom to do so - move away. as already discussed earlier in this thread, non-muslims in islamic countries are not forced to convert nor are they killed or threatened with violence. not to say that religious violence does not happen in islamic countries - but people with knowledge of the conflicts understand that this is often the result of tribalism, factional issues and long-standing socio-historical rivalries.

basically my point is that people are muslims by choice and conform to islamic state law and structure as part of their own willing and volition; it is not a tyrannical regime or an oppressive religion, they simply live their lives differently and have a different, incomparable culture. we do not have the high position or the audacity to say that we are 'better' or 'right'. we're still trying to sort out our own issues JUST to be able to truthfully and properly say that we have an equal democracy- and it has taken a lot of protest, violence and trouble in order for US to get HERE. don't worry your pretty little head about muslims and how they run their countries - it is a cultural difference, and resorting to orientalism to deal with the 'other' is not the proper way to go about things and promote a better peace, co-existence and understanding.

well then relax, islam isn't trying to assert anything into your society-- the unfounded fear of that IS a phobia.

it's borderline paranoia.

yes, i am going to say on record that mainstream islam has no desire to spread and dominate the world.

extremist factions, minor fringe-elements and fundamentalists... perhaps. or at least, rather, to dominate the arab-world.

but, as always, as i tirelessly stress... there are christian minorities and extremists that want a christian religious hegemony, also.

yeah lowing and 'black people are _' on google brings up a lot of 'coincidences', too.

the only coincidence in the matter is that there are a lot of other sad, pathetic and afraid individuals out there that share your skewed world view.

he-ey look what my own ingenuous search suddenly found, damn why don't more scholars use google!

http://www.alislam.org/islam/islam-peac … ligion.pdf

any bets i can find more by tailoring my searches with selectively-adapted key-words? funny that, isn't it.

lowing you confound me, i just don't get how a middle-aged man can lack... basic logic and common-sense reasoning.

lowing leave that shitty anti-islam hate site out of this... it is not credible, and exists only to further bolster the views of people that are ALREADY islamophobic. it's a website run by neo-con scumbags in order to incite hatred; it feeds off and exploits the fear created post-9/11 in american people and turns them, in turn, into their own form of american/christian extremist.

here, i did a little bit of research into the guy that runs your anti-islam 'bible', and here's his history before his current 'venture':

Neo-Nazi Glen Reinsford, who used to run the horrifically anti-Islamic site of www.cairbaby.com, had his site taken down, as his hosting company has restrictions against racism.

You can find an archived copy of the site’s front page at http://web.archive.org/web/20070304120840/cairbaby.com/

The site was temporarily taken down in December 2007, when Reinsford violated copyright laws, and now appears to be gone permanently as Reinsford refused to remove the racist content. The permanent takedown appears to have happened in April 2008. (Shows how often I read his site.)

Reinsford is an indicted co-conspirator of Jeanette Runyon, on charges of conspiracy, forgery, cyberstalking, money laundering, wire fraud, theft of a social security number, and using interstate communications to make personal threats.

You can read more about Reinsford here.

where does the 'here' link lead? to some very convincing FBI-history and police records on your 'scholar', namely:

New information has been developed in the past six months that conclusively shows "Glen Reinsford" is in reality Peter Oliver, who lives on Highland Club Dr. in Marietta GA.  Oliver also goes by the name of Linda Lucile Oliver, and a lengthy list of both male and female names. Oliver has a criminal history of 55 convictions for robbery, felonious assault, burglary, theft, bad checks, etc., and a few stints in prison, all for which we have the documentation.

furthermore:



so i would very much appreciate it if you would stop basing your fucking worldview on the PROPAGANDIST site of a NEO-NAZI.

thank you very much, oh wise one.