somewhat equally
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
My point exactly. You can see what I did thereVaregg wrote:
Hehe ... Farenheit 911 is somewhat equally biased as lowing links but in the other end of the spectre ...
Wait for it.
the fact that lowing has been clinging to the same, highly-tailored, highly-bias and highly-unconvincing source for the last 5 pages of 'debate' makes me think of this original post i made more and more... and really does make me wonder: to what extent does one's surfing habits and frequented sources of information affect their 'worldview'? do you think if lowing had an afternoon with a top muslim imam, methodically and patiently debunking all of the 'myths' on that website, that he would change his opinion or stance in the slightest? we have already seen him say that his personal, real-life experiences with muslims do not correlate with the spite-filled venom distributed on those websites. i think that my use of the word "delude" in my summarizing sentence is probably as close as you can ever get to describing the effects of years of highly-selective internet browsing and information consumption.Uzique wrote:
lowing there is a sociological phenomenon on the internet known as something like 'virtual balkanization' or the like.
basically you are the textbook example of this bizarre social effect: when one's surfing habits frequent a number of similar websites, and a person becomes a 'casual' browser of 'x' genre of website- they surround themselves with 'information' and 'content' that starts to increasingly co-align with their own personal (world)views and attitudes. eventually you are so surrounded in your every-day surfing experience by websites, opinions, content and, indeed, other users in the same situation- that your own beliefs become so confirmed and concrete that you cannot see out of the box you have just sealed yourself in.
break out of the sociological, pathological narrowmindedness. you do realize that people looking to find 'information' on 'islam: the religion of peace' could just as easily utilize google to find pro-Islam sites, right? you do realize that there are communities, forums, information-websites and countless blogs out there that promote islam as a peaceful co-existing religion in our modern world? you seek out the negative critique that compliments your own world-view and then further drown yourself in the false knowledge that your opinions are right; and, furthermore, are the only version of 'right' that exists.
i cannot believe that a grown man can delude himself into such absolute stupidity.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Almost equal, somewhat equal? ... I'm NorwegianSpark wrote:
somewhat equally
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
blindly? how can you say I am blind? Because I do not agree with you? Do you think this source is the only site that exposes Islam? you can not do a google search, or enter any Islamic site that does not condemn violence? They rationalize it or excuse it, or blame someone else for it.Varegg wrote:
You are the one with your head in the sand lowing believing blindly what a bias source like that tells you ... I have my opinions and believes from hundreds of sources including knowing Muslims and their religion first hand ...
That site you link from is bias from start to finished and is hiding behind a few facts ... it's so obvious you really don't have to read much to dismiss it as pure garbage ... and that you find it intelligently presented is fucking scary ...
Yes Islam have problems, yes there are violent Muslims, yes there are acts or terror comitted by Islamic fanatics and yes considering the global situation they may seem to be the more violent religion pr date ... unless you count the millitary acts comitted by the Christians with USA as the leader of the supposedly free world ...
Your millitary crusade in the ME has cost more lives than 911 so go figure ...
Typed in "peaceful Islam" and here is the first hit, a perfect example. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 87,00.html (plus all the hits that cry out bullshit about peace within Islam)
There are probably 1000's of sources internet and other wise that exposes Islam for what it is. INCLUDING ISLAMIC SOURCES, from its teachers to its teachings.
Maybe you should start doing some real research and stop judging this religion based on who you drink beer with.
As far as all the Muslims you know.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran … rnment.htm
hahahah lowing im sorry but "real research" is not utilizing google to find the results that YOU selectively want to find
go to a university library, look up their section on Islam or the Orient. read some actual books.
email an actual imam or islamic academic; get in touch with some real, credible research.
go to a university library, look up their section on Islam or the Orient. read some actual books.
email an actual imam or islamic academic; get in touch with some real, credible research.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
There are counter arguments to F911Varegg wrote:
Hehe ... Farenheit 911 is somewhat equally biased as lowing links but in the other end of the spectre ...
http://www.davekopel.com/terror/fiftysi … it-911.htm
There ya go...........Now, how about you try and do this with Islam? Debunk Islam as a violent intoelrant religion.
I can't believe he walked directly into that one.lowing wrote:
There are counter arguments to F911Varegg wrote:
Hehe ... Farenheit 911 is somewhat equally biased as lowing links but in the other end of the spectre ...
You seem to think I am selectivly doing searches. I am not. Hell I typed in "convert or kill and it explodes with Islam. Yo might want to ask yourself why. Or do you think it is just a big coincidence?Uzique wrote:
hahahah lowing im sorry but "real research" is not utilizing google to find the results that YOU selectively want to find
go to a university library, look up their section on Islam or the Orient. read some actual books.
email an actual imam or islamic academic; get in touch with some real, credible research.
Try typing in peaceful Islam. and read up. Can't escape the violent nature of Islam.
There is plenty of evidence for my argument, where is your evidence for yours? (I mean except the argument that I am wrong)
you didnt get very good grades in school did you lowing
Tu Stultus Es
i do think it's a big coincidence, yes. an ideological war is declared on 'terrorism', which to most redneck americans and those lacking a better understanding/education means a war on those 'evil arabs' or 'islam the false religion' or 'savages in undeveloped countries'. of course you're going to get a whole branch of propagandist, bigoted and narrowminded commentary/polemics. you quoted TIME magazine as if it's the grand arbiter of world-equality... well duh, quoting an american mainstream magazine, being sold to american citizens, on the topic of islam post 9/11- you're hardly going to get an objective analysis, are you?
the results of a google search, and the websites that prove 'popular' amongst fellow-searchers, are not a benchmark on how to evaluate an entire religion. all you are seeing is the product of a population of people that are angry and pissed off after the terrorist attacks (and subsequent failures in war) and want to vent their little partisan bile on some corner of cyberspace; you seem to revel and thrive in this environment. good for you. it does not mean that they are 'correct' or 'well-informed', though. google popularity rankings are not google quality rankings. how can you not consider this for even one moment? you do astound me.
also i think there is a deficiency of 'evidence' to 'counter' your 'argument' because most objective, rational and educated people consider your claims to be so absurd and ridiculous that they don't warrant debunking. the fahrenheit 9/11 stuff presented itself as cold, concrete and inarguable scientific fact - so an entire range of scientific experts came out of the wood work to busily debunk it. these crazy, fanatical comments that you come out seem to provoke more of a /facepalm than a genuine desire to prove you wrong; and furthermore, most experts and people with a clue can probably recognize from a mile off that they're wasting their time. preaching to the already-converted.
the results of a google search, and the websites that prove 'popular' amongst fellow-searchers, are not a benchmark on how to evaluate an entire religion. all you are seeing is the product of a population of people that are angry and pissed off after the terrorist attacks (and subsequent failures in war) and want to vent their little partisan bile on some corner of cyberspace; you seem to revel and thrive in this environment. good for you. it does not mean that they are 'correct' or 'well-informed', though. google popularity rankings are not google quality rankings. how can you not consider this for even one moment? you do astound me.
also i think there is a deficiency of 'evidence' to 'counter' your 'argument' because most objective, rational and educated people consider your claims to be so absurd and ridiculous that they don't warrant debunking. the fahrenheit 9/11 stuff presented itself as cold, concrete and inarguable scientific fact - so an entire range of scientific experts came out of the wood work to busily debunk it. these crazy, fanatical comments that you come out seem to provoke more of a /facepalm than a genuine desire to prove you wrong; and furthermore, most experts and people with a clue can probably recognize from a mile off that they're wasting their time. preaching to the already-converted.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
hmmm here is a site where you can "ask the Imam" interesting.
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view <----- a good one since yet again war and violence is addressed.
Sorry, don't feel any better about Islam.
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view
http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask … p;act=view <----- a good one since yet again war and violence is addressed.
Sorry, don't feel any better about Islam.
good, now collate his personal interpretations and scholarship with 2 or 3 others.
you're slowly learning what objective, empirical 'research' is, lowing. one opinion didn't change your mind? very well, then... but don't rely on that one link and that one, tenuous person to found all of your arguments. go look up some more. consider changing source from the internet - the internet is NOT the best research tool, far from it - go to a library, get out some books. email or write to muslim academics in your local (reputable) universities, schools and communities. get a properly researched view. stop being spoonfed information from selective-circles that further nothing but their own ideological hegemony.
you're slowly learning what objective, empirical 'research' is, lowing. one opinion didn't change your mind? very well, then... but don't rely on that one link and that one, tenuous person to found all of your arguments. go look up some more. consider changing source from the internet - the internet is NOT the best research tool, far from it - go to a library, get out some books. email or write to muslim academics in your local (reputable) universities, schools and communities. get a properly researched view. stop being spoonfed information from selective-circles that further nothing but their own ideological hegemony.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
ummm you didn't actually read that article did you? Might wanna go back and read it.Uzique wrote:
i do think it's a big coincidence, yes. an ideological war is declared on 'terrorism', which to most redneck americans and those lacking a better understanding/education means a war on those 'evil arabs' or 'islam the false religion' or 'savages in undeveloped countries'. of course you're going to get a whole branch of propagandist, bigoted and narrowminded commentary/polemics. you quoted TIME magazine as if it's the grand arbiter of world-equality... well duh, quoting an american mainstream magazine, being sold to american citizens, on the topic of islam post 9/11- you're hardly going to get an objective analysis, are you?
the results of a google search, and the websites that prove 'popular' amongst fellow-searchers, are not a benchmark on how to evaluate an entire religion. all you are seeing is the product of a population of people that are angry and pissed off after the terrorist attacks (and subsequent failures in war) and want to vent their little partisan bile on some corner of cyberspace; you seem to revel and thrive in this environment. good for you. it does not mean that they are 'correct' or 'well-informed', though. google popularity rankings are not google quality rankings. how can you not consider this for even one moment? you do astound me.
also i think there is a deficiency of 'evidence' to 'counter' your 'argument' because most objective, rational and educated people consider your claims to be so absurd and ridiculous that they don't warrant debunking. the fahrenheit 9/11 stuff presented itself as cold, concrete and inarguable scientific fact - so an entire range of scientific experts came out of the wood work to busily debunk it. these crazy, fanatical comments that you come out seem to provoke more of a /facepalm than a genuine desire to prove you wrong; and furthermore, most experts and people with a clue can probably recognize from a mile off that they're wasting their time. preaching to the already-converted.
Ahhh yes, just wasting time, with all that is present on the net, in the Koran, quoted from Islamic leaders, actions taken in the name of Islam. It is all just a waste of time to address it, because what? none of it is true?....Gotcha
I love the "I am superior to you so I do not have to address your argument", argument. It is a classic.
You seem to think I have the up hill battle showing Islam as violent and intolerant, not hardly....You have the up hill battle showing that it is not....The very reason you do not attempt it.
Last edited by lowing (2010-07-01 08:29:57)
lol, that was the first link and that is what I found, and I was looking for positive Islam stuff....Sorry buddy, Islam is fucked up beyond all understanding and reason to a rational society.Uzique wrote:
good, now collate his personal interpretations and scholarship with 2 or 3 others.
you're slowly learning what objective, empirical 'research' is, lowing. one opinion didn't change your mind? very well, then... but don't rely on that one link and that one, tenuous person to found all of your arguments. go look up some more. consider changing source from the internet - the internet is NOT the best research tool, far from it - go to a library, get out some books. email or write to muslim academics in your local (reputable) universities, schools and communities. get a properly researched view. stop being spoonfed information from selective-circles that further nothing but their own ideological hegemony.
Is the 10,000 opinions regarding Islamic violence and intolerance enough to change your mind? No? well then do some more research.
your condescending tone is not welcome.
Last edited by lowing (2010-07-01 08:38:20)
please dont even consider calling yourself a rational member of society
Tu Stultus Es
lowing i don't have the uphill battle on anything- i live alongside, interact with and get along peacefully and happily with britain's muslim population. i have never felt fear, never been angered or never taken offense to any of their beliefs, attitudes or cultural habits here in the UK. i live in a relatively fearless society where we do not fear an 'enemy from within' or stand alert against some great ideological foe. how do i have an uphill battle? i know 100 muslims for every one muslim that will decry the west or speak out against my nation or people. you have the uphill battle, my friend, in proving that an ENTIRE RELIGION stands for a negative force that is not apparent in any sort of every-day reality.
once again, your only source of quoted-information is the internet... you seem so passionate about this subject: GET SOME INITIATIVE. email a theology professor or a well-known muslim community member - get their view. it seems only right that a person so intellectually engaged with the subject should want to genuinely educate themselves and get a better-informed view. instead you are only reading articles and visiting websites that further entrench your errors.
once again, your only source of quoted-information is the internet... you seem so passionate about this subject: GET SOME INITIATIVE. email a theology professor or a well-known muslim community member - get their view. it seems only right that a person so intellectually engaged with the subject should want to genuinely educate themselves and get a better-informed view. instead you are only reading articles and visiting websites that further entrench your errors.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
lol, if there is any strife with Islam in Europe it is epitomized in London. Do I really need to pull it up? Do not even begin to think to try and pass off England as not having an issues with Islam and its encroachment.Uzique wrote:
lowing i don't have the uphill battle on anything- i live alongside, interact with and get along peacefully and happily with britain's muslim population. i have never felt fear, never been angered or never taken offense to any of their beliefs, attitudes or cultural habits here in the UK. i live in a relatively fearless society where we do not fear an 'enemy from within' or stand alert against some great ideological foe. how do i have an uphill battle? i know 100 muslims for every one muslim that will decry the west or speak out against my nation or people. you have the uphill battle, my friend, in proving that an ENTIRE RELIGION stands for a negative force that is not apparent in any sort of every-day reality.
once again, your only source of quoted-information is the internet... you seem so passionate about this subject: GET SOME INITIATIVE. email a theology professor or a well-known muslim community member - get their view. it seems only right that a person so intellectually engaged with the subject should want to genuinely educate themselves and get a better-informed view. instead you are only reading articles and visiting websites that further entrench your errors.
1.2 billion Musilms and you base your views on the few you know in England and from what you learn in a classroom and a library? Who has a selective agenda again? Might wanna get your head out of your book and see the world around you, especially England.
and what exactly are they going to tell me, that Islam is not violent? not intolerant? and what would they use to prove that? certainly not the teaching of Islam or sharia law, then what?
Last edited by lowing (2010-07-01 08:55:37)
i don't learn anything from books or a classroom about islam... what gives you that impression? im merely recommending some more credible sources to you for your own education and information. i am not a muslim scholar, nor am i involved in islamic discourses and issues.
and do not tell me how the multicultural 'state' is in london; do not try to fucking tell me how the atmosphere in the place where I LIVE is according to your american websites and bias sources. i think i can gauge and evaluate the way things are here very well myself, thank you very much. or is this another case of 'real-life' and experiences steeped in 'reality' not counting? is this a similar scenario to your own interactions with muslim families in the middle-east? i.e. they're nice and seemingly get along... but according to THIS WEBSITE!!! there is a deeper evil beneath, that they must be cunningly concealing from us all? no. conspiratorial absurd nonsense. i get along with muslims in my neighbourhood, muslims on my university course, muslims in my social-circles very well, thank you. minor cultural differences, e.g. they do not drink alcohol, but that hardly causes some great animosity or mutual antipathy. i respect their cultural mores and they respect ours. we co-exist peacefully.
i repeat again, do not tell me how things are for me and my people here, in my country, in my city, because of your silly inane little internet searches and regressive conservative worldviews. do not try to push the tenuous point that an extremist and radical terror attack several years ago has forever since created some 'helter-skelter' like race/religion war here in our country, bubbling beneath the surface. it hasn't. the european sensibility and REASONING seems to have a more... intelligent approach to radicalism and terrorism. we don't all react with some backwards, redneck propagandist rhetoric and breed negative feelings and emotions from tribal-like factional fear. we get along fine. sorry to disappoint and contradict your warped view of things, yet again.
and do not tell me how the multicultural 'state' is in london; do not try to fucking tell me how the atmosphere in the place where I LIVE is according to your american websites and bias sources. i think i can gauge and evaluate the way things are here very well myself, thank you very much. or is this another case of 'real-life' and experiences steeped in 'reality' not counting? is this a similar scenario to your own interactions with muslim families in the middle-east? i.e. they're nice and seemingly get along... but according to THIS WEBSITE!!! there is a deeper evil beneath, that they must be cunningly concealing from us all? no. conspiratorial absurd nonsense. i get along with muslims in my neighbourhood, muslims on my university course, muslims in my social-circles very well, thank you. minor cultural differences, e.g. they do not drink alcohol, but that hardly causes some great animosity or mutual antipathy. i respect their cultural mores and they respect ours. we co-exist peacefully.
i repeat again, do not tell me how things are for me and my people here, in my country, in my city, because of your silly inane little internet searches and regressive conservative worldviews. do not try to push the tenuous point that an extremist and radical terror attack several years ago has forever since created some 'helter-skelter' like race/religion war here in our country, bubbling beneath the surface. it hasn't. the european sensibility and REASONING seems to have a more... intelligent approach to radicalism and terrorism. we don't all react with some backwards, redneck propagandist rhetoric and breed negative feelings and emotions from tribal-like factional fear. we get along fine. sorry to disappoint and contradict your warped view of things, yet again.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
lmao.....you might wanna tell all of those Islamic protesters in London screaming for sharia law about your peaceful co-existence, they did not get the memo.Uzique wrote:
i don't learn anything from books or a classroom about islam... what gives you that impression? im merely recommending some more credible sources to you for your own education and information. i am not a muslim scholar, nor am i involved in islamic discourses and issues.
and do not tell me how the multicultural 'state' is in london; do not try to fucking tell me how the atmosphere in the place where I LIVE is according to your american websites and bias sources. i think i can gauge and evaluate the way things are here very well myself, thank you very much. or is this another case of 'real-life' and experiences steeped in 'reality' not counting? is this a similar scenario to your own interactions with muslim families in the middle-east? i.e. they're nice and seemingly get along... but according to THIS WEBSITE!!! there is a deeper evil beneath, that they must be cunningly concealing from us all? no. conspiratorial absurd nonsense. i get along with muslims in my neighbourhood, muslims on my university course, muslims in my social-circles very well, thank you. minor cultural differences, e.g. they do not drink alcohol, but that hardly causes some great animosity or mutual antipathy. i respect their cultural mores and they respect ours. we co-exist peacefully.
i repeat again, do not tell me how things are for me and my people here, in my country, in my city, because of your silly inane little internet searches and regressive conservative worldviews. do not try to push the tenuous point that an extremist and radical terror attack several years ago has forever since created some 'helter-skelter' like race/religion war here in our country, bubbling beneath the surface. it hasn't. the european sensibility and REASONING seems to have a more... intelligent approach to radicalism and terrorism. we don't all react with some backwards, redneck propagandist rhetoric and breed negative feelings and emotions from tribal-like factional fear. we get along fine. sorry to disappoint and contradict your warped view of things, yet again.
you might wanna get the memo that they're a minority who are utilizing their democratic right to freedom of speech... and that there are forums and communities of muslims who do not hold that view, at all. you might also want to go tell your tea-party protestors about how evil and threat-posting they are to the fabric of your society... after all, they're protesting against the state of national state, social and legal being and are representing a view and stance that defies the norm!
i commend protestors and marchers that take to the streets to democratically make their point. if anti-war activists, nuclear-disarmament marchers, christian denominations pushing for partisan-points of their own etc. can all march through london (which is an english democratic tradition)- then why should our muslim minorities be repressed and undemocratically coerced into silence? the important part is they are a vocal minority of a large ethnic group and they do not even wholly represent the views of london's muslims- let alone the worldwide fucking network.
i commend protestors and marchers that take to the streets to democratically make their point. if anti-war activists, nuclear-disarmament marchers, christian denominations pushing for partisan-points of their own etc. can all march through london (which is an english democratic tradition)- then why should our muslim minorities be repressed and undemocratically coerced into silence? the important part is they are a vocal minority of a large ethnic group and they do not even wholly represent the views of london's muslims- let alone the worldwide fucking network.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
ahh full circle to back to the "few".......Sure looks like a lot more than just a "few". What is actually protested for or against should at least a little be of concern to you.Uzique wrote:
you might wanna get the memo that they're a minority who are utilizing their democratic right to freedom of speech... and that there are forums and communities of muslims who do not hold that view, at all. you might also want to go tell your tea-party protestors about how evil and threat-posting they are to the fabric of your society... after all, they're protesting against the state of national state, social and legal being and are representing a view and stance that defies the norm!
i commend protestors and marchers that take to the streets to democratically make their point. if anti-war activists, nuclear-disarmament marchers, christian denominations pushing for partisan-points of their own etc. can all march through london (which is an english democratic tradition)- then why should our muslim minorities be repressed and undemocratically coerced into silence? the important part is they are a vocal minority of a large ethnic group and they do not even wholly represent the views of london's muslims- let alone the worldwide fucking network.
the tea party protesters, are protesting to protect our constitution, not change our country into something it was not meant to become...Same can not be said for your Islamic protesters.
I will add that, given the extent of Islamic protest and frequency there might be a suggestion than this is more than just a few wayward muslims.
Ignore it all you want.
Last edited by lowing (2010-07-01 10:59:01)
lowing it is a fucking few and there is no any-which-way to spin it otherwise:
the number of muslims protesting and holding the opinion that shariah law should operate in britain is a tiny minority compared to the numbers of completely content and ordinary muslims in the country that prosper and live in peace and happiness under the current british system. a tiny minority. there are fringe groups in every religion, political party and general gathering of people- it's nothing new and it's certainly nothing incriminating of islam.
the number of muslims protesting and holding the opinion that shariah law should operate in britain is a tiny minority compared to the numbers of completely content and ordinary muslims in the country that prosper and live in peace and happiness under the current british system. a tiny minority. there are fringe groups in every religion, political party and general gathering of people- it's nothing new and it's certainly nothing incriminating of islam.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
if i had the effort, im sure after reading the bible through and consulting a few mentals i could assemble a website around christianity much like thereligionofpeace.com. why? all (or most )of the major religions around the world can be painted in a bad light. their key books have been rewritten and rewritten throughout time to suit whoever was in favour at the time, and as such they are terribly open to interpratation. you don't have to disprove anything in your sources, it's likely given enough hate in your mind and enough time with muslim articles you could pull the incredibly radical conclusion that website offers. it's sad you don't see this.
ed- (post might read slightly fractured, posting from within EvE
ed- (post might read slightly fractured, posting from within EvE
Last edited by FatherTed (2010-07-01 11:10:17)
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella