Pages: 1 2 3 4 … 6

 

2010-04-16 07:44:31
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6889|Canberra, AUS

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:

if he's learn his lesson from the last year then expect cap and trade to crop again very, very soon. not next term, if he has one.
If he railroads that monstrosity through he'll have no shot at a second term. The history books (written by liberal professors of course) will make him a martyr for the progressive cause and the second coming of FDR.
i think you'll find there is general public support for some kind of market-based mechanism. probably not that one though, it looks, like ours, ludicrously complicated.

i think you've got your ideological blinkers on if you think he'll never get an ets passed.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-04-16 07:44:59
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6989|Moscow, Russia

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, Reagan and Gorbached between them ended the cold war, no small acheivement on either side.
That the USSR was broke doesn't matter.
two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-04-16 07:54:31
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:

if he's learn his lesson from the last year then expect cap and trade to crop again very, very soon. not next term, if he has one.
If he railroads that monstrosity through he'll have no shot at a second term. The history books (written by liberal professors of course) will make him a martyr for the progressive cause and the second coming of FDR.
i think you'll find there is general public support for some kind of market-based mechanism. probably not that one though, it looks, like ours, ludicrously complicated.

i think you've got your ideological blinkers on if you think he'll never get an ets passed.
ets?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 07:57:39
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6889|Canberra, AUS

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


If he railroads that monstrosity through he'll have no shot at a second term. The history books (written by liberal professors of course) will make him a martyr for the progressive cause and the second coming of FDR.
i think you'll find there is general public support for some kind of market-based mechanism. probably not that one though, it looks, like ours, ludicrously complicated.

i think you've got your ideological blinkers on if you think he'll never get an ets passed.
ets?
emissions trading scheme
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-04-16 08:02:27
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:


i think you'll find there is general public support for some kind of market-based mechanism. probably not that one though, it looks, like ours, ludicrously complicated.

i think you've got your ideological blinkers on if you think he'll never get an ets passed.
ets?
emissions trading scheme
No, I don't have my ideological blinkers on, the very mention of such a plan is toxic right now, especially with a recession and the health care thing already passed. The Dems pretty much used up all their political capital to get the last bill through, there isn't enough support left for any version of C&T. There are too many Dems from coal mining and industrial states for it to ever even come to a vote in the Senate.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 08:08:03
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, Reagan and Gorbached between them ended the cold war, no small acheivement on either side.
That the USSR was broke doesn't matter.
two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
No, they did it, essentially.
Fuck Israel
2010-04-16 08:09:08
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


ets?
emissions trading scheme
No, I don't have my ideological blinkers on, the very mention of such a plan is toxic right now, especially with a recession and the health care thing already passed. The Dems pretty much used up all their political capital to get the last bill through, there isn't enough support left for any version of C&T. There are too many Dems from coal mining and industrial states for it to ever even come to a vote in the Senate.
Carbon tax is so simple and effective, why is anyone even talking about ETS?
Fuck Israel
2010-04-16 08:10:52
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:


emissions trading scheme
No, I don't have my ideological blinkers on, the very mention of such a plan is toxic right now, especially with a recession and the health care thing already passed. The Dems pretty much used up all their political capital to get the last bill through, there isn't enough support left for any version of C&T. There are too many Dems from coal mining and industrial states for it to ever even come to a vote in the Senate.
Carbon tax is so simple and effective, why is anyone even talking about ETS?
Again... won't happen. For as many people that bought into the Al Gore movie in this country, there are millions more worried about their jobs and what a carbon tax would do to slow/destroy the recovery.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 08:12:45
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX
You can say that about any tax.
If a carbon tax were put in place and tax lifted off something else it would change the economy, not necessarily destroy it - thats the purpose.
Fuck Israel
2010-04-16 08:17:26
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

You can say that about any tax.
If a carbon tax were put in place and tax lifted off something else it would change the economy, not necessarily destroy it - thats the purpose.
So you like command economies then?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 08:23:41
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX
ETS would be a command economy.
Taxes are a normal part of any economy.
Fuck Israel
2010-04-16 08:32:59
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

ETS would be a command economy.
Taxes are a normal part of any economy.
Coercion via tax incentives/punishment is anathema to freedom. Are you ok with a 'fat tax' and other legislation designed to change peoples lifestyles as well? If so, you can chalk yourself up there right alongside the BNP or the National Socialist German Workers Party.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 08:33:45
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6989|Moscow, Russia

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, Reagan and Gorbached between them ended the cold war, no small acheivement on either side.
That the USSR was broke doesn't matter.
two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
No, they did it, essentially.
geez, you are brainwashed there, people, it's unbe-fucking-leavable.

all reagan and gorbachev did was say a few words on camera and pat each other on the back, that was about it. the cold war ended for the reasons neither of those clowns had any influence on. ussr had rotten away from inside, reagan and gorbachev simply acknowledged that.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-04-16 08:36:15
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6625|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shahter wrote:


two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
No, they did it, essentially.
geez, you are brainwashed there, people, it's unbe-fucking-leavable.

all reagan and gorbachev did was say a few words on camera and pat each other on the back, that was about it. the cold war ended for the reasons neither of those clowns had any influence on. ussr had rotten away from inside, reagan and gorbachev simply acknowledged that.
Wow. Someone needs to lrn2history.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-04-16 08:38:27
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6989|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


No, they did it, essentially.
geez, you are brainwashed there, people, it's unbe-fucking-leavable.

all reagan and gorbachev did was say a few words on camera and pat each other on the back, that was about it. the cold war ended for the reasons neither of those clowns had any influence on. ussr had rotten away from inside, reagan and gorbachev simply acknowledged that.
Wow. Someone needs to lrn2history.
which history, man? the one with which your brains are being fried from the earliest age?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-04-16 08:41:14
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6625|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


geez, you are brainwashed there, people, it's unbe-fucking-leavable.

all reagan and gorbachev did was say a few words on camera and pat each other on the back, that was about it. the cold war ended for the reasons neither of those clowns had any influence on. ussr had rotten away from inside, reagan and gorbachev simply acknowledged that.
Wow. Someone needs to lrn2history.
which history, man? the one with which your brains are being fried from the earliest age?
No, the one that involves facts. The one that I (and others here) lived through, vice the one that you read about--via totally unbiased sources, I'm sure.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-04-16 08:44:02
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

ETS would be a command economy.
Taxes are a normal part of any economy.
Coercion via tax incentives/punishment is anathema to freedom. Are you ok with a 'fat tax' and other legislation designed to change peoples lifestyles as well? If so, you can chalk yourself up there right alongside the BNP or the National Socialist German Workers Party.
Yes of course, only the BNP put higher taxes on things they want to discourage
Fuck Israel
2010-04-16 08:49:32
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6989|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Wow. Someone needs to lrn2history.
which history, man? the one with which your brains are being fried from the earliest age?
No, the one that involves facts. The one that I (and others here) lived through
and i was, like, dead when it happened, huh? if anything, i have actually seen what ussr was like immediately prior to the glorious end of the cold war with my own eyes, when you only read about it in papers and seen what they chose to show you about it on tv.

FEOS wrote:

vice the one that you read about--via totally unbiased sources, I'm sure.
yeah, yeah. my sources are biased now, and yours aren't.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-04-16 08:50:13
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5572|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

ETS would be a command economy.
Taxes are a normal part of any economy.
Coercion via tax incentives/punishment is anathema to freedom. Are you ok with a 'fat tax' and other legislation designed to change peoples lifestyles as well? If so, you can chalk yourself up there right alongside the BNP or the National Socialist German Workers Party.
Yes of course, only the BNP put higher taxes on things they want to discourage
Any attempt to do so is an attack on freedom. It doesn't matter whether it's in the business world, or in your personal life, if the government steps in and tries to influence your decisions via monetary incentives/disincentives, you are being controlled.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-16 09:04:59
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6846|949

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, Reagan and Gorbached between them ended the cold war, no small acheivement on either side.
That the USSR was broke doesn't matter.
two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
No, they did it, essentially.
No, they didn't do it, essentially.  Nope, not even close.  The only argument to make regarding Reagan and the end of the Cold War is that he talked a big game and we spent a lot of money on defense.  Gorby could be credited for the tranparency/reform that he tried to push forward but Reagan did fuck all.  Russia had it's own internal problems that played a larger factor in the downfall than any credit Reagan is due.

I personally think we should thank Reagan for the Iran/Contra debacle ("I didn't know), allowing his wife to help him coordinate meetings based on an astrological calenders, "voodoo economics", ridiculous increase in resources funneled to the military-industrial complex,escalation of the 'War on Drugs', etc etc.  But I will argue against the idea that he did anything profound to end the cold war for as long as I live.

I hate people's incoherent championing of Reagan's legacy.  Fuck him and his one-breasted wife.  She would definitely make me "just say no".
2010-04-16 09:14:48
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6625|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


which history, man? the one with which your brains are being fried from the earliest age?
No, the one that involves facts. The one that I (and others here) lived through
and i was, like, dead when it happened, huh? if anything, i have actually seen what ussr was like immediately prior to the glorious end of the cold war with my own eyes, when you only read about it in papers and seen what they chose to show you about it on tv.
And your perspective on that is from what age? I'm sure your perspective from the Soviet/Russian side of things is entirely different, but age also makes a difference in how one processes and understands what one experiences firsthand.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

vice the one that you read about--via totally unbiased sources, I'm sure.
yeah, yeah. my sources are biased now, and yours aren't.
That's right. TASS and Pravda are known for their objectivity and not being regime mouthpieces, aren't they?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-04-16 09:17:09
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6625|'Murka

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shahter wrote:


two clowns, one from each side, ended a war...
ehm...
you are being sarcastic, right? i mean, you must be. no?..
No, they did it, essentially.
No, they didn't do it, essentially.  Nope, not even close.  The only argument to make regarding Reagan and the end of the Cold War is that he talked a big game and we spent a lot of money on defense.  Gorby could be credited for the tranparency/reform that he tried to push forward but Reagan did fuck all.  Russia had it's own internal problems that played a larger factor in the downfall than any credit Reagan is due.
Your inability to see that there is a linkage in this paragraph shows your lack of understanding of what Reagan accomplished.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-04-16 09:29:29
BLdw
..
+27|5385|M104 "Sombrero"

FEOS wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, they did it, essentially.
No, they didn't do it, essentially.  Nope, not even close.  The only argument to make regarding Reagan and the end of the Cold War is that he talked a big game and we spent a lot of money on defense.  Gorby could be credited for the tranparency/reform that he tried to push forward but Reagan did fuck all.  Russia had it's own internal problems that played a larger factor in the downfall than any credit Reagan is due.
Your inability to see that there is a linkage in this paragraph shows your lack of understanding of what Reagan accomplished.
Can you tell me what he accomplished?

Last edited by BLdw (2010-04-16 09:29:47)

2010-04-16 09:34:20
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6568
could Reagan remember how many States there are ? could he pronounce the word " corp " ? Does he have any friends in the K.K.K. ? Did he have terrorists buddies at his parties ?
2010-04-16 10:05:47
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6625|'Murka

BLdw wrote:

FEOS wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:


No, they didn't do it, essentially.  Nope, not even close.  The only argument to make regarding Reagan and the end of the Cold War is that he talked a big game and we spent a lot of money on defense.  Gorby could be credited for the tranparency/reform that he tried to push forward but Reagan did fuck all.  Russia had it's own internal problems that played a larger factor in the downfall than any credit Reagan is due.
Your inability to see that there is a linkage in this paragraph shows your lack of understanding of what Reagan accomplished.
Can you tell me what he accomplished?
WRT the Cold War, his policies intentionally forced the USSR to spend itself into bankruptcy. His administration knew that the USSR wouldn't not attempt to keep pace with the US in a military build-up. They also knew that the USSR's economy couldn't sustain it, while ours could. The US's build-up and the USSR's collapse were not merely happenstance.

Hence the disconnect in KJ's post.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

 

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