Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England
By AMY SCHATZ

A U.S. appeals court ruled Tuesday that the Federal Communications Commission overstepped when it cited cable-giant Comcast Corp. for slowing some Internet traffic on its network, dealing a blow to big Web commerce companies and other proponents of "net neutrality."

In a unanimous decision, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said the FCC exceeded its authority when it sanctioned Comcast in 2008 for deliberately preventing some subscribers from using peer-to-peer file-sharing services to download large files.

At stake is how far the FCC can go to dictate the way Internet providers like AT&T Inc. and Verizon Communications Inc. manage traffic on their multibillion-dollar networks. For the past decade or so, the FCC has maintained a mostly hands-off approach to Internet regulation. But that could soon change, likely setting off a prolonged, expensive lobbying battle pitting Web-content providers against Internet-service providers.

"The court in no way disagreed with the importance of preserving a free and open Internet, nor did it close the door to other methods for achieving this important end," said FCC spokeswoman Jen Howard.

For most consumers, the issue of net neutrality—tech-industry shorthand for the idea that Internet providers should treat all forms of Web traffic equally—is still largely abstract.

Big Internet providers say ordinary Web users have no reason to fear restrictions on legal content. But companies like Google Inc. and Amazon.com Inc. that want to profit from offering more Web video and other high-bandwidth services are concerned that some day the big telecommunications companies will use their power to restrict certain kinds of Web content or charge more to deliver it at high speeds.

The court's decision prompted calls Tuesday from Democrats and consumer groups for Congress to pass new legislation to give the FCC more authority to police Internet providers. "They may have won the battle only to face a larger war," said Rebecca Arbogast, a telecom analyst for Stifel, Nicolaus & Co. Inc.

Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts was among the Democratic lawmakers saying Tuesday that Congress may need to act. "I know that Congress did not intend for cable and telephone broadband Internet service providers to fall outside the authority of the FCC to protect consumers," he said. Republican lawmakers have generally opposed net-neutrality rules.

Comcast and other Internet providers played down the victory, calling it a narrow decision that won't prevent the FCC from protecting consumers or prompt Internet providers to block sites.

Comcast was accused of deliberately slowing Web traffic to some customers who were downloading large files using peer-to-peer file-sharing services like BitTorrent. The FCC investigated and sanctioned the cable giant, demanding that the company stop slowing traffic and provide more information about its network-management policies. Comcast complied, but it challenged the FCC's decision.

"Our primary goal was always to clear our name and reputation," said Sena Fitzmaurice, a Comcast spokeswoman, adding that the company is "committed to the FCC's existing open Internet principles, and we will continue to work constructively with this FCC as it determines how best to increase broadband adoption and preserve an open and vibrant Internet."

AT&T said the FCC's current net-neutrality principles work and it will continue to abide by them.

Verizon said the decision "will have no impact on the experience of Internet users." But, speaking Tuesday at the Council on Foreign Relations about a plan to make Web access faster and more accessible, Verizon Chief Executive Ivan Seidenberg said, it isn't a "slam dunk" that net neutrality is the right policy. "We have to be careful that well-intentioned policies don't become burdensome rules."

Time Warner Cable Inc. said the decision doesn't change its commitment to providing the "high-quality, open Internet experience" its customers expect.

President Obama supports net-neutrality rules, and FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski proposed new, tougher rules last fall. It is not clear what will become of them now.

Consumer groups warned that the decision strips the FCC of authority to enforce net-neutrality rules and means that Comcast and other Internet providers can block Web sites anytime. They called for the FCC to take a tougher approach toward regulating Internet providers.

"In 2002, the FCC made a decision to no longer regulate broadband Internet service under the same regime they used for telephone service," said Gigi Sohn, co-founder of Public Knowledge, a Washington-based public-interest group. "The only thing that will not leave consumers in limbo now is if the FCC goes back and says they made a mistake in 2002."

Mr. Genachowski's aides are already considering whether to apply rules written for the old phone system to Internet providers, which the agency could use as a basis for policing net-neutrality violations.

But even the suggestion of reregulation of Internet lines is sparking fierce opposition, and phone and cable companies are already lobbying lawmakers and FCC officials to reject the idea.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … stpop_read


Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content that I use regularly, I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.

Let's face it, a guy keeping his file sharing programs running at max bandwidth 24/7 is putting a burden on the rest of us that we shouldn't have to suffer for.

Opinions on the matter?

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-07 08:34:27)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6991
It's economic suicide for a company to limit bandwith... People will just go to one that doesn't I can see why companies may limit torrents, but there are still loads of other bandwith hogs that people actually use more than torrents... Downloading legally bought games (steam), streaming videos, sending large files to friends etc. I doubt most people torrent 24/7. If people are such bandwith hogs, might as well put a cap limit (but its fuckign gay) instead of net neutrality shit. It's just going to create more problems...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
First off, Bittorrent isnt "sites".  And that is only a small part of net neutrality. 

JohnG@lt wrote:

Let's face it, a guy keeping his file sharing programs running at max bandwidth 24/7 is putting a burden on the rest of us that we shouldn't have to suffer for.
Yes, it is fair.  High bandwidth users have to pay more (at least here they do).  Just because some people dont use their monthly quota of bandwidth doesnt mean the rest of us cant meet it.  Think of Europe and especially South Korea/Japan, they have people using way more bandwidth with higher speeds than us, yet their internet costs are far cheaper.  Obviously some of this is due to population density, but it should still be attainable to some degree in North America.  The biggest problem here will be replacing the copper with fibre.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
First off, Bittorrent isnt "sites".  And that is only a small part of net neutrality. 

JohnG@lt wrote:

Let's face it, a guy keeping his file sharing programs running at max bandwidth 24/7 is putting a burden on the rest of us that we shouldn't have to suffer for.
Yes, it is fair.  High bandwidth users have to pay more (at least here they do).  Just because some people dont use their monthly quota of bandwidth doesnt mean the rest of us cant meet it.  Think of Europe and especially South Korea/Japan, they have people using way more bandwidth with higher speeds than us, yet their internet costs are far cheaper.  Obviously some of this is due to population density, but it should still be attainable to some degree in North America.  The biggest problem here will be replacing the copper with fibre.
I'm well aware of what BT is, I have it installed on my computer and use it a few times a month.

I can agree with caps on accounts rather than limits on individual programs or sites. You are correct when you say that if they are advertising that they offer 15mb/s that they should in fact have enough capacity that every single person in the system could download at 15mb/s simultaneously. Otherwise it's false advertising.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

The solution the ISPs have put into place for now in Canada is they limit torrent ports to ~20KB/s for uploading and uncap it for downloading.  Personally, I think thats pretty fair.  It allows beginner users (aka public torrent sites) to torrent perfectly fine and makes advanced users find alternative ways to upload content. 

I can agree with caps on accounts rather than limits on individual programs or sites. You are correct when you say that if they are advertising that they offer 15mb/s that they should in fact have enough capacity that every single person in the system could download at 15mb/s simultaneously. Otherwise it's false advertising.
There are so many tricks they use for speeds.  15Mb/s = 1.87MB/s, which is what most people measure by.  Plus, thats usually burst speed, so a speed you'd only attain for the first 5 seconds of your download.  And yes, its also dependant upon the usage of the people on your network.  Fibre is greatly needed in North America
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:

The solution the ISPs have put into place for now in Canada is they limit torrent ports to ~20KB/s for uploading and uncap it for downloading.  Personally, I think thats pretty fair.  It allows beginner users (aka public torrent sites) to torrent perfectly fine and makes advanced users find alternative ways to upload content. 

I can agree with caps on accounts rather than limits on individual programs or sites. You are correct when you say that if they are advertising that they offer 15mb/s that they should in fact have enough capacity that every single person in the system could download at 15mb/s simultaneously. Otherwise it's false advertising.
There are so many tricks they use for speeds.  15Mb/s = 1.87MB/s, which is what most people measure by.  Plus, thats usually burst speed, so a speed you'd only attain for the first 5 seconds of your download.  And yes, its also dependant upon the usage of the people on your network.  Fibre is greatly needed in North America
My connection is fiber I switched to FiOS on Friday.

https://www.speedtest.net/result/774669978.png
https://www.speedtest.net/result/774672273.png

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-07 09:03:52)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

As far as I know it doesnt even exist commercially in Canada.  And the business ones are usually pretty shit.  I'm on a business fibre line right now and I max out at around 600-700kB/s

lol, thats really not fast if you're actually on fibre

Last edited by Winston_Churchill (2010-04-07 09:03:37)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:

As far as I know it doesnt even exist commercially in Canada.  And the business ones are usually pretty shit.  I'm on a business fibre line right now and I max out at around 600-700kB/s

lol, thats really not fast if you're actually on fibre
I'm on the lowest tiered plan. There is a high speed option but I have no need.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

Anyway, traffic shaping is only one of the huge issues with net neutrality.  This pretty much gives the ability to ISPs to all but censor what you see.  They can block programs, websites, anything they want.  They could create tiered systems on what you can see, depending on how much you pay.  So instead of your lowest tiered plan, you would have to pay much more if you wanted free(er) access to the internet.  Do you really consider Skype and VOIP to be world disasters needing to rid our world of?  ISPs want them gone since theu use up their bandwidth.  Thats something they should have absolutely no control over.
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6797|...

Internet access should be a utility
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content that I use regularly, I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6876|132 and Bush

JohnG@lt wrote:

Winston_Churchill wrote:

As far as I know it doesnt even exist commercially in Canada.  And the business ones are usually pretty shit.  I'm on a business fibre line right now and I max out at around 600-700kB/s

lol, thats really not fast if you're actually on fibre
I'm on the lowest tiered plan. There is a high speed option but I have no need.
The 20 plan I presume. I'm on the 50.. they are testing 100 down here now. Tampa and Dallas are testbeds for Verizon.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6797|...

I don't think it fair for an ISP to determine what is and isn't correct usage on the internet.
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

jsnipy wrote:

I don't think it fair for anyone to determine what is and isn't correct usage on the internet.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content that I use regularly, I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content that I use regularly, I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
Uhh, I dont think your internet cables are run above ground.  And theres one minor thing stopping competitors from running their own lines, the billions of dollars it would cost to run the cables and build the infrastructure.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Thoughts on this? Personally I think there's enough competition between providers that providers should be able to limit sites like Bittorrent and other bandwidth hogs. If my ISP limits content that I use regularly, I'll switch to one that doesn't. It's really simple.
False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
Here's the problem.  When the internet was first put into place, it was done with public funds.  The infrastructure used was initially publicly owned, but it basically just was given to the private sector over time.  Several countries took a different route that allowed for more competition to develop with telecoms.

South Koreans get some of the fastest internet service while still paying less than we do and less than a lot of the world.  Why?  Because of the following...

http://www.catholic.org/national/nation … ;wf=rsscol

1. Korean competition. The number of companies offering Internet services in the U.S. are relatively slim. Many Americans choose their provider with either their cable or telephone company. In many other nations, including South Korea, there are more options, and the competition for faster, cheaper broadband connections are especially fierce.

2. Culture and politics. The South Korean government has encouraged its citizens to get connected to the Internet, to the point of subsidizing the price for low-income households and those traditionally not hooked up to the Internet, such as the elderly. Around 94 percent of South Korea has an Internet connectivity, as opposed to the U.S., at 65 percent.

3. Open versus closed networks. "Open" Internet systems require that broadband companies share the cables necessary for the systems to work. Most if not all U.S. Internet companies require customers to buy boxes, cables, wires and special cordless systems in addition to the broadband fee. South Korea Internet systems generally do not require a major infrastructure being added to homes for private use. 

4. Population density. South Korea's population is far denser per mile. Therefore, it costs less to set up Internet infrastructure in tightly populated places filled with high-rise-apartments.

5. South Korea had a plan. In the 1990s, South Korea set a priority that it would be a highly connected country with a high degree of Internet literacy. Simply put, the nation made it a priority – and they succeeded.


This article is basically a copy of the one I initially read on CNN but I can't seem to find now. 

As you can see though, there are cases where a functional government plan for an industry can work very well.  The Koreans collectively were devoted to making their connectivity better through more competition and less barriers to entry for the market, and they succeeded.

By contrast, we've literally let the private sector keep most competition out through lobbyism and barriers to entry that were mostly imposed by already dominant companies in the market.

In short, we got raped.  And we're going to get raped a lot harder when the bandwidth caps start.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
Uhh, I dont think your internet cables are run above ground.  And theres one minor thing stopping competitors from running their own lines, the billions of dollars it would cost to run the cables and build the infrastructure.
And whose fault is that? What's stopping some enterprising individual from finding investors and making their own go at it? You're essentially advocating state control, are you not? My state and city are bankrupt. The roads and trains and everything else within their purview is decrepit and failing. You want to make me dependent on them to fix outages, run cable, upgrade the system etc? No thanks.

My lines are run above ground btw.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


False argument.  Most areas have limited choices in broadband, because infrastructure is private rather than publicly shared among providers.

The end result is that most local markets are highly oligopolistic -- much like most of our local medical markets.

Choice and competition are rather limited except in extremely densely populated areas (like yours).
Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
Here's the problem.  When the internet was first put into place, it was done with public funds.  The infrastructure used was initially publicly owned, but it basically just was given to the private sector over time.  Several countries took a different route that allowed for more competition to develop with telecoms.

South Koreans get some of the fastest internet service while still paying less than we do and less than a lot of the world.  Why?  Because of the following...

http://www.catholic.org/national/nation … ;wf=rsscol

1. Korean competition. The number of companies offering Internet services in the U.S. are relatively slim. Many Americans choose their provider with either their cable or telephone company. In many other nations, including South Korea, there are more options, and the competition for faster, cheaper broadband connections are especially fierce.

2. Culture and politics. The South Korean government has encouraged its citizens to get connected to the Internet, to the point of subsidizing the price for low-income households and those traditionally not hooked up to the Internet, such as the elderly. Around 94 percent of South Korea has an Internet connectivity, as opposed to the U.S., at 65 percent.

3. Open versus closed networks. "Open" Internet systems require that broadband companies share the cables necessary for the systems to work. Most if not all U.S. Internet companies require customers to buy boxes, cables, wires and special cordless systems in addition to the broadband fee. South Korea Internet systems generally do not require a major infrastructure being added to homes for private use. 

4. Population density. South Korea's population is far denser per mile. Therefore, it costs less to set up Internet infrastructure in tightly populated places filled with high-rise-apartments.

5. South Korea had a plan. In the 1990s, South Korea set a priority that it would be a highly connected country with a high degree of Internet literacy. Simply put, the nation made it a priority – and they succeeded.


This article is basically a copy of the one I initially read on CNN but I can't seem to find now. 

As you can see though, there are cases where a functional government plan for an industry can work very well.  The Koreans collectively were devoted to making their connectivity better through more competition and less barriers to entry for the market, and they succeeded.

By contrast, we've literally let the private sector keep most competition out through lobbyism and barriers to entry that were mostly imposed by already dominant companies in the market.

In short, we got raped.  And we're going to get raped a lot harder when the bandwidth caps start.
South Korea - 487 per square kilometer
South Korea - 49,540,000

USA - 32 per square kilometer
USA - 309,016,000
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

South Korea - 487 per square kilometer
South Korea - 49,540,000

USA - 32 per square kilometer
USA - 309,016,000
That doesn't negate point #3.

Government involvement literally forced the market open in Korea.  It actually created competition.

By contrast, letting the market run completely free has allowed oligopolies to develop here -- just like it has with medicine.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-04-07 18:30:20)

Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|7014|Toronto | Canada

JohnG@lt wrote:

Winston_Churchill wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Infrastructure here (telephone poles) is owned by the city. Companies have to pay rent to the city to use them and then they string their own lines. Are you suggesting that companies should allow others to use their cable? There's currently nothing stopping competitors from running their own lines.
Uhh, I dont think your internet cables are run above ground.  And theres one minor thing stopping competitors from running their own lines, the billions of dollars it would cost to run the cables and build the infrastructure.
And whose fault is that? What's stopping some enterprising individual from finding investors and making their own go at it? You're essentially advocating state control, are you not? My state and city are bankrupt. The roads and trains and everything else within their purview is decrepit and failing. You want to make me dependent on them to fix outages, run cable, upgrade the system etc? No thanks.

My lines are run above ground btw.
Seriously? Thats a god awful idea.  Even telephone lines are below ground here now, if one pole went down in a storm you can say bye bye to your internet AND telephone?  Nice.

Its not just the money itself, its also the length of time something like that would take.  Think of how many permits/licenses/etc you would need to dig up ground all over communities to run cables.  Plus you'd have our "Big Three" ISPs fighting to the death against you to stop that. 
So yes. I do believe the government should have more power in creating better access to the internet, not removing access like this court has done.  Look at the post above, South Korea's government took the right steps with internet, why cant ours do that too?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

South Korea - 487 per square kilometer
South Korea - 49,540,000

USA - 32 per square kilometer
USA - 309,016,000
That doesn't negate point #3.

Government involvement literally forced the market open in Korea.  It actually created competition.

By contrast, letting the market run completely free has allowed oligopolies to develop here -- just like it has with medicine.
Government meddling with the market in an attempt to create more competition led to AT&T being broken up. This was intended to lower rates and improve service via enhanced competition. Rates went up, service degraded. The market dictates how much competition is necessary. Not some central planner.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

South Korea - 487 per square kilometer
South Korea - 49,540,000

USA - 32 per square kilometer
USA - 309,016,000
That doesn't negate point #3.

Government involvement literally forced the market open in Korea.  It actually created competition.

By contrast, letting the market run completely free has allowed oligopolies to develop here -- just like it has with medicine.
Government meddling with the market in an attempt to create more competition led to AT&T being broken up. This was intended to lower rates and improve service via enhanced competition. Rates went up, service degraded. The market dictates how much competition is necessary. Not some central planner.
That didn't happen with South Korea.

At some point, you have to come to the realization that letting the market clear things isn't always the best idea.  Neither is a central planning scheme....

It's case by case...   and clearly, in this particular industry, central planning seems to have worked better for consumers when it comes to broadband.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-04-07 18:37:34)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5633|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


That doesn't negate point #3.

Government involvement literally forced the market open in Korea.  It actually created competition.

By contrast, letting the market run completely free has allowed oligopolies to develop here -- just like it has with medicine.
Government meddling with the market in an attempt to create more competition led to AT&T being broken up. This was intended to lower rates and improve service via enhanced competition. Rates went up, service degraded. The market dictates how much competition is necessary. Not some central planner.
That didn't happen with South Korea.

At some point, you have to come to the realization that letting the market clear things isn't always the best idea.  Neither is a central planning scheme....

It's case by case...   and clearly, in this particular industry, central planning seems to have worked better for consumers.
In one instance and in one outlier where the population density dictated that it could work. South Korea has ten times the population density of the average nation and 15.2 times the US density. You know damn well that if this went before Congress we would be subsidizing the farmer in North Dakota whose fiber connection cost $10M to install while paying a nominal rate of $50 a month for it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6680|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Government meddling with the market in an attempt to create more competition led to AT&T being broken up. This was intended to lower rates and improve service via enhanced competition. Rates went up, service degraded. The market dictates how much competition is necessary. Not some central planner.
That didn't happen with South Korea.

At some point, you have to come to the realization that letting the market clear things isn't always the best idea.  Neither is a central planning scheme....

It's case by case...   and clearly, in this particular industry, central planning seems to have worked better for consumers.
In one instance and in one outlier where the population density dictated that it could work. South Korea has ten times the population density of the average nation and 15.2 times the US density. You know damn well that if this went before Congress we would be subsidizing the farmer in North Dakota whose fiber connection cost $10M to install while paying a nominal rate of $50 a month for it.
Possibly.  If you're implying that our government is too corrupt for central planning to work, then I have to admit that you might be right.

I don't think this is true of the Canadian government though.  It could probably work very well for them.  All they need is some people in power willing to actually support the idea.

Either way, it's clear that central planning isn't inherently bad -- it's just bad when the government involved is too corrupt to trust.

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