Just watched it again myself and I think I see what you mean, Vilham. I don't see an RPG, though, but rather one of those big chain-fed machine guns...
That's no reason not to close in for a better look.
Lemme re-watch that bit
Video is way to bad to be sure that they had an RPG. Why not fly in closer for a better look?
Lemme re-watch that bit
Video is way to bad to be sure that they had an RPG. Why not fly in closer for a better look?
Last edited by max (2010-04-06 03:56:14)
once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404.
All the shit that happened up until the mini van arrived is hard to comment on. As we where not there and didn't have the situational awareness that the people on the ground, choppers and at HQ had.
However. When a mini van turns up to evacuate body's. And the people in the chopper said........."Bodies" what threat does that pose to anyone? The guy is obviously unarmed and the people he is trying to picked up are so fucked up they couldn't pose a threat either. The gunner was on a high and could not wait to kill those unarmed people in the mini van. The CO he asked sounded like he was in the approaching Bradley's and didn't ask for enough information on the engagement (and sounded like he had enough shit bothering him around him) and the gunner gave as little as possible information so he could get his kicks. That's the way I see it.
This guy was not an ambulance, he was probably some local out with his two kids when he came across a road full of bodies....his country men, on the streets of his town and stopped to help them and got slaughtered for it. His humanity cost him his life.
However. When a mini van turns up to evacuate body's. And the people in the chopper said........."Bodies" what threat does that pose to anyone? The guy is obviously unarmed and the people he is trying to picked up are so fucked up they couldn't pose a threat either. The gunner was on a high and could not wait to kill those unarmed people in the mini van. The CO he asked sounded like he was in the approaching Bradley's and didn't ask for enough information on the engagement (and sounded like he had enough shit bothering him around him) and the gunner gave as little as possible information so he could get his kicks. That's the way I see it.
This guy was not an ambulance, he was probably some local out with his two kids when he came across a road full of bodies....his country men, on the streets of his town and stopped to help them and got slaughtered for it. His humanity cost him his life.
They didn't ask for permission to fire.
Because all they were told in reply was that there were no "friendlies" in the area.
Because all they were told in reply was that there were no "friendlies" in the area.
I consider myself lucky that I don't have to take decisions like this on a daily basis in a country where it's close to impossible to separate friend from foe ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Or journalists disguised as insurgents.
Last edited by AussieReaper (2010-04-06 04:34:09)
If a riot breaks out and stores are getting robbed while you walk in the middle of that block party, cops don't ask for your id when they hit the scene, they will fuck you up on sight.
I still think the village idiots wanted to show off for the two photographers and took a pot shot at the Apache. It didn't go as planned.
Kinda like how a flash mob shows up burning US flags and effigys and there just happens to be a tv camera to film it. Or they really riot in the streets all the time over there...
Kinda like how a flash mob shows up burning US flags and effigys and there just happens to be a tv camera to film it. Or they really riot in the streets all the time over there...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I just think people will want to convince themselves as much as possible that it was all perfectly ok that the helicopter shot them all to pieces. I think basically what Mikkel said is that it boils down to a lack of contempt for their lives. They're all just some crazy Hajji, who gives a shit... it happens. I can see the argument in favour of the pilots easily, just that the lack of respect/remorse for all those that died is abit unfair and very telling. Posts like "fuck it, they shouldn't have been there" and such, I mean, really...
They had weapons on them and 1 of them fired a shot, I mean.. really..Mekstizzle wrote:
I just think people will want to convince themselves as much as possible that it was all perfectly ok that the helicopter shot them all to pieces. I think basically what Mikkel said is that it boils down to a lack of contempt for their lives. They're all just some crazy Hajji, who gives a shit... it happens. I can see the argument in favour of the pilots easily, just that the lack of respect/remorse for all those that died is abit unfair and very telling. Posts like "fuck it, they shouldn't have been there" and such, I mean, really...
The real story I suppose is how this was all covered up until wikileaks er... leaked it. I dunno if this will have any impact on what's going on in Iraq, they still seem more intent on killing each other
Why would that be hilarious?Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Now if you want to say that we shouldn't have wars at all, that would be hilarious.
Seeing as since the end of WW2 the world have only seen roughly 40 days without any armed conflicts ... Utopia is a good place but no trains and planes travels to that destination ...BLdw wrote:
Why would that be hilarious?Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Now if you want to say that we shouldn't have wars at all, that would be hilarious.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
First of all i will say that the first attack i felt was just, i also thought the man crouched on the corner had an RPG and they did have weapons in a war zone.
but shooting the van i really do not see why they did that, you could not see any weapons and they didn't pose a threat obviously US rules of engagement are different.
but shooting the van i really do not see why they did that, you could not see any weapons and they didn't pose a threat obviously US rules of engagement are different.
This is the problem, 'there are no friendlies', 'its a warzone', 'its a hostile zone'.DonFck wrote:
Baghdad in 2007 was at least a hostile zone
It wasn't a 'hostile zone' it was a country with a tiny proportion of hostile insurgents in it.
If you just go around wasting random people it will become hostile though.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Because they could have an RPG...max wrote:
That's no reason not to close in for a better look.
Lemme re-watch that bit
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ivd85v.png
Video is way to bad to be sure that they had an RPG. Why not fly in closer for a better look?
Except it wasn't, all those people were wrong despite their awsm training - which is what 13 weeks these days?Vilham wrote:
Indeed it wasn't an RPG, but it certainly looked like one, to me, to the trained gunner, to his commander watching the feed. But what would they know. Dilberts on the case.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
That's so sad. imo, the cover up proves guilt. Them pilots were blood thirsty and full of intent to get some "action".
Heads will roll, and righty so.
Heads will roll, and righty so.
RPG or not, what about the AK 47s?DesertFox- wrote:
Because they could have an RPG...max wrote:
That's no reason not to close in for a better look.
Lemme re-watch that bit
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ivd85v.png
Video is way to bad to be sure that they had an RPG. Why not fly in closer for a better look?
sarcasmRTHKI wrote:
even if it is to defend yourself having guns, or being around people who do, can draw unwanted attention from both sides, especially the USPug wrote:
As a general rule, I always think its wise to hang out in a warzone around people who have guns.Dilbert_X wrote:
Given the widespread ownership of AKs in Iraq, and the multitude of militias, police, undercover operatives etc opening up from a helicopter on a crowd apparently doing nothing much is pretty dumb.
You know, for safety....
A parallel: You are speeding and you see a cop. Most drivers slow down and pretend to act normal.LostFate wrote:
First of all i will say that the first attack i felt was just, i also thought the man crouched on the corner had an RPG and they did have weapons in a war zone.
but shooting the van i really do not see why they did that, you could not see any weapons and they didn't pose a threat obviously US rules of engagement are different.
I'm not sure how to act if I was in that situation, but if I knew there was an attack helicopter in the area, I'd do anything I could to identify myself as a friendly. I would say the guy peeking around the corner was a bad idea.
As far as the van goes, the only thing we have is the audio. "They are picking up weapons". If that indeed happened, I would have trouble identifying myself as a non-combatant by picking up a gun. It's unfortunate the kids were in the car. Again, I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation but I would likely not be driving a car into an area just shot up, nor would I stop to help. Unless they were unaware the helicopter was there...but it's hard to believe they wouldn't know a helicopter was in the area. If there was an injured guy on the street, I'd try to figure out where the gunfire came from before I got out of the car.
There's too many unknowns to make any kind of decision.
But there were a combination of unfortunate behavior:
1) It looks like there were some folks with guns, hanging around with dudes with guns makes you a target
2) No effort was made to identify themselves as friendly
3) Hiding instead of identifying themselves as friendly
4) Activity that was interpreted as gathering weapons
Although I completely agree with engaging them (under the circumstances) I do find it disturbing how they gloated about it.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Do me a favor bud; go to a war zone and get those pesky native to fill out their official combatant certification card.ruisleipa wrote:
The helicopter was maybe looking for suspicious activity. But there were NO certified combatants. there were a few guys with what the pilots thought were guns. That does NOT equal certified enemy combatants, does it?
Are you actually that stupid, or is this just the usual pointless shit talking?
You know I love you right ATG?ATG wrote:
Do me a favor bud; go to a war zone and get those pesky native to fill out their official combatant certification card.ruisleipa wrote:
The helicopter was maybe looking for suspicious activity. But there were NO certified combatants. there were a few guys with what the pilots thought were guns. That does NOT equal certified enemy combatants, does it?
Are you actually that stupid, or is this just the usual pointless shit talking?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Its not a war zone, the war ended five years earlier.ATG wrote:
Do me a favor bud; go to a war zone and get those pesky native to fill out their official combatant certification card.
Its unreasonable to invade a country for political reasons, turning it into a war zone, and then declare 'its a fucking war zone, we can kill whoever the fuck we like'.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-04-06 06:37:30)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
See now you're exaggerating again.Dilbert_X wrote:
Its not a war zone.ATG wrote:
Do me a favor bud; go to a war zone and get those pesky native to fill out their official combatant certification card.
Its unreasonable to invade a country for political reasons, turning it into a war zone, and then declare 'its a fucking war zone, we can kill whoever the fuck we like'.
Oh and Iraq was invaded because it's a terrorist heaven. If it wasn't before it is now, so we can murder all the bad guys in one spot. Without having to go to their country.
See?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.