goddamn i wish there was a way to block people from threads
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
- globefish23
- sophisticated slacker
- +334|6541|Graz, Austria
Open Access then?Uzique The Lesser wrote:
not many undergrads are getting their 8,000 word pieces of work published in journals.
Or publish on Twitter. Split up in 58 tweets.
open access can be even more expensive depending on the journal...
i think you mean pre-prints like arxiv. very handy but the keywords are pre-print.
i think you mean pre-prints like arxiv. very handy but the keywords are pre-print.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
open access is great if you're in the sciences and there's a prerogative to 'just get the results published and seen'. but journals are a lot more in academia as an institution/profession than just an outlet/publication for results. what's the point giving all your work over to open access journals when they are not considered valid or note-worthy amongst a large proportion of your peers? these new emerging technologies are not really fighting a winning battle in many parts of academia / senses of publishing. part of publishing is career advancement and good peer-review. open access journals are problematic when it comes to that. sadly the top journals command a top cultural capital for a reason. they have the best editors and peer-review, and have the best outreach and impact amongst the highest echelons of your field. open access is just a neat virtual experiment, in comparison.
okay yeah academics only work 20 hours a week. keep bludgeoning us with this marvelous fact you have got somewhere (your imagination). okay academics don't publish more than 2 books in a lifetime career. please tell me more. it's not as if i haven't had almost daily contact with career academics for the last 4 years. it's not like i haven't researched the career thoroughly and checked out all of its roles and incentives. only 2 books in a life, you say? well, first of all, to get into any post-doctoral hiring, your doctoral thesis must be accepted by a book deal nowadays and published. so that's 1 book published by the time you're 25-26, and only just starting your career. but the career only asks you to write one more book in 30-40 years? is that right. please tell me more. you clearly are on familiar ground. is there a subscription fee? can i take your fax address.Dilbert_X wrote:
Several articles a year? I don't believe the books part seeing as no academics I've known have published more than one or two books in their whole career.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
'their own interests'. that's a career. they have to write several published articles and books a year. it's not exactly a light workload. and lecture all over the world. and organize conferences/research seminars. and give pastoral help to crying and stressed students. there's a lot of responsibilities. plus a professor every year will get assigned some of the administrative/departmental work, i.e. rotating the 'department head' or 'department admissions' roles. but yes, mostly it's their own research. if you don't understand what constitutes academic research output, or how the entire university system and world-ranking is based on research output/citations, then that's your problem. a doctor/hired staff won't keep their job for very long if they aren't putting out world-class research, boosting the department's stats/esteem. there are 10 others knocking at the door, waiting for their opportunity to get a salary. tenure is a 50 year old fantasy. the ones who write world-influential/game-changing books maybe get given tenure, and the opportunity to do what they want. that's maybe the top 10% of all university staff. there are 3 at my university, and one of them is a former poet laureate - the most senior literary position in british public life, perhaps. it's not a gravytrain. for every tenured professor there's a CEO or board chairman, raking in just as much for just as little. i think you are a little bias.
~20 hrs a week, most of it regurgitating a lesson plan written only once, long holidays, a full salary and the rest of your time free to pursue your own personal interests with the resources of a University and grant budgets to play with.
Doesn't seem too bad really, no wonder theres competition to get in.
here's a random example from my dept. not the most eminent guy. someone i had close contact hours with w/ my specific postgraduate course content, so i know his publishing history.
http://pure.rhul.ac.uk/portal/en/person … tions.html
that looks like a book every 2-3 years to me, as well as long chapter-length pieces of work and articles in-between. yeah, 2 books in a whole life-time. PLEASE. TELL. ME. MORE. riveting tale, chap.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 05:16:39)
So its a book every 2-3 years, not several books a year, and your thesis counts as a book :WTF:
Deconstructing a little, and going backwards as apparently senior years are the most productive:
2012 - One book, 33 pages
2011 - 0
2010 - 16 pages
2009 - 16 pages and a book of historical poems by someone else
2008 - A 7 page editorial - whew
2007 - One Book, 41 pages
2006 - 5 Pages
2005 - One Book, 20 pages
2004 - 30 Pages
2003 - 33 Pages
I'm sorry, 3 books and ~200 pages of published articles in 10 years doesn't seem a lot for someone in the field of literature.
And if its the case, as you say, that to get published you mostly have to pay the vanity press to do it its not really impressive.
As for the rest of it I see 6 books in 27 years = 1 book per 4.5 years, hardly several books a year and not even 1 every 2-3. If several means two you're out by a factor of 9. Well done, keep trying, I could fax you some maths coaching if it helps.
Even at his peak 3 books in ten years, thats not even 1 in 3.
On average, 20% of a book and 20 pages of published articles a year doesn't seem like an awful lo of measurable output or workload, especially in a wordy subject like literature, that would be considered low for an academic in most STEM subjects IMO.
It seems to me you're delusional about many aspects of academia, I think you need a break, have you considered a holiday?
Deconstructing a little, and going backwards as apparently senior years are the most productive:
2012 - One book, 33 pages
2011 - 0
2010 - 16 pages
2009 - 16 pages and a book of historical poems by someone else
2008 - A 7 page editorial - whew
2007 - One Book, 41 pages
2006 - 5 Pages
2005 - One Book, 20 pages
2004 - 30 Pages
2003 - 33 Pages
I'm sorry, 3 books and ~200 pages of published articles in 10 years doesn't seem a lot for someone in the field of literature.
And if its the case, as you say, that to get published you mostly have to pay the vanity press to do it its not really impressive.
As for the rest of it I see 6 books in 27 years = 1 book per 4.5 years, hardly several books a year and not even 1 every 2-3. If several means two you're out by a factor of 9. Well done, keep trying, I could fax you some maths coaching if it helps.
Even at his peak 3 books in ten years, thats not even 1 in 3.
On average, 20% of a book and 20 pages of published articles a year doesn't seem like an awful lo of measurable output or workload, especially in a wordy subject like literature, that would be considered low for an academic in most STEM subjects IMO.
It seems to me you're delusional about many aspects of academia, I think you need a break, have you considered a holiday?
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 06:13:40)
Fuck Israel
where did i say "a few books a year"? i didn't say that. please learn to read. and yes, academia is so competitive that the only people who get jobs nowadays are people who are doing publishing-deal quality theses straight out of their first PhD project. why does that surprise you? i thought you viewed PhD's as the "golden apex"?
and no, i said only junior academics have to pay to get their early work published in peer-reviewed journals. that's because there are so many young post-PhD's wanting to crack into the academic job ladder. it's an early break, and there's only so many journals with high-standards and proper peer-review to go around... thus, you tend to have to pay to get their time/effort/review for your early work. i did not say that senior academics pay to have their stuff published. lol i definitely did not fucking make out that academics are financing their own book deals. yeah right, every 2-3 years he publishes a 500 page hardback book... and foots the bill himself. lol you fucking dolt.
as for your 'hmm that's not very much', you clearly do not understand the amount of work and scholarship that goes into one book. that's a serious academic book written on the back of endless lectures, seminars, contact hours, course organization, marking/admin, student-care, travelling/guest lectures, extra academic interests/research groups/conference organisation, etc. a serious academic book every 2-3 years sounds like a serious task, to me. those things would take 3 months of full-time focus to even write up.
again, i fail to see how this is "unimpressive" to a guy that seems to spend his entire workday sat on an internet forum talking about black's monkey intelligence. i see proof of a driven individual who has succeeded in his field, earning a lot of money and commanding a lot of esteem, and being entrusted with positions of senior responsibility in an institution/profession that comes with a lot of respect and social status. what do i see of you? the echt-engineer? the ur-example of a 'successful' STEM grad? i see a guy living at home being bitter and lonely on the internet all day. i think i know which career path is being sold to me.
and no, i said only junior academics have to pay to get their early work published in peer-reviewed journals. that's because there are so many young post-PhD's wanting to crack into the academic job ladder. it's an early break, and there's only so many journals with high-standards and proper peer-review to go around... thus, you tend to have to pay to get their time/effort/review for your early work. i did not say that senior academics pay to have their stuff published. lol i definitely did not fucking make out that academics are financing their own book deals. yeah right, every 2-3 years he publishes a 500 page hardback book... and foots the bill himself. lol you fucking dolt.
as for your 'hmm that's not very much', you clearly do not understand the amount of work and scholarship that goes into one book. that's a serious academic book written on the back of endless lectures, seminars, contact hours, course organization, marking/admin, student-care, travelling/guest lectures, extra academic interests/research groups/conference organisation, etc. a serious academic book every 2-3 years sounds like a serious task, to me. those things would take 3 months of full-time focus to even write up.
again, i fail to see how this is "unimpressive" to a guy that seems to spend his entire workday sat on an internet forum talking about black's monkey intelligence. i see proof of a driven individual who has succeeded in his field, earning a lot of money and commanding a lot of esteem, and being entrusted with positions of senior responsibility in an institution/profession that comes with a lot of respect and social status. what do i see of you? the echt-engineer? the ur-example of a 'successful' STEM grad? i see a guy living at home being bitter and lonely on the internet all day. i think i know which career path is being sold to me.
It was right hereUzique The Lesser wrote:
where did i say "a few books a year"? i didn't say that. please learn to read.
Did you just delete your post? Well played, too bad I already quoted it, as did youUzique wrote:
'their own interests'. that's a career. they have to write several published articles and books a year. it's not exactly a light workload.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 06:32:31)
Fuck Israel
i haven't deleted anything, what are you prattling on about. "writing several published articles and books a year" is a fine description. and it is not exactly a light workload. again: what do you do that makes this pale into insignificance? i'm not sure professors are finding the time to sit on gaming forums all day. they also live in their own place. that guy above even managed to do all that whilst raising a family! and sending his kids to good schools! all which seems like a substantially bigger life achievement than you.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 06:37:40)
Uzique The Lesser wrote:
okay yeah academics only work 20 hours a week. keep bludgeoning us with this marvelous fact you have got somewhere (your imagination). okay academics don't publish more than 2 books in a lifetime career. please tell me more. it's not as if i haven't had almost daily contact with career academics for the last 4 years. it's not like i haven't researched the career thoroughly and checked out all of its roles and incentives. only 2 books in a life, you say? well, first of all, to get into any post-doctoral hiring, your doctoral thesis must be accepted by a book deal nowadays and published. so that's 1 book published by the time you're 25-26, and only just starting your career. but the career only asks you to write one more book in 30-40 years? is that right. please tell me more. you clearly are on familiar ground. is there a subscription fee? can i take your fax address.Dilbert_X wrote:
Several articles a year? I don't believe the books part seeing as no academics I've known have published more than one or two books in their whole career.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
'their own interests'. that's a career. they have to write several published articles and books a year. it's not exactly a light workload. and lecture all over the world. and organize conferences/research seminars. and give pastoral help to crying and stressed students. there's a lot of responsibilities. plus a professor every year will get assigned some of the administrative/departmental work, i.e. rotating the 'department head' or 'department admissions' roles. but yes, mostly it's their own research. if you don't understand what constitutes academic research output, or how the entire university system and world-ranking is based on research output/citations, then that's your problem. a doctor/hired staff won't keep their job for very long if they aren't putting out world-class research, boosting the department's stats/esteem. there are 10 others knocking at the door, waiting for their opportunity to get a salary. tenure is a 50 year old fantasy. the ones who write world-influential/game-changing books maybe get given tenure, and the opportunity to do what they want. that's maybe the top 10% of all university staff. there are 3 at my university, and one of them is a former poet laureate - the most senior literary position in british public life, perhaps. it's not a gravytrain. for every tenured professor there's a CEO or board chairman, raking in just as much for just as little. i think you are a little bias.
~20 hrs a week, most of it regurgitating a lesson plan written only once, long holidays, a full salary and the rest of your time free to pursue your own personal interests with the resources of a University and grant budgets to play with.
Doesn't seem too bad really, no wonder theres competition to get in.
here's a random example from my dept. not the most eminent guy. someone i had close contact hours with w/ my specific postgraduate course content, so i know his publishing history.
http://pure.rhul.ac.uk/portal/en/person … tions.html
that looks like a book every 2-3 years to me, as well as long chapter-length pieces of work and articles in-between. yeah, 2 books in a whole life-time. PLEASE. TELL. ME. MORE. riveting tale, chap.
How strange, you wrote a post, I responded, you responded further to back up your initial claims, and repeated your initial claim, now you never wrote it or claimed it.Uzique wrote:
where did i say "a few books a year"? i didn't say that. please learn to read.
I think you need a holiday, have you been to Australia? I think some clean air would do you good.
O wait, now you did claim it and you're fine with it, even though the evidence you quoted to back it up doesn't fly.
Honestly, take a breather.Uzique wrote:
i haven't deleted anything, what are you prattling on about. "writing several published articles and books a year" is a fine description
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 06:53:25)
Fuck Israel
why are you saying i've deleted or never claimed something? i haven't edited a single post in this topic/conversation with you. call a moderator if you want. jesus what the fuck are you going on about. can i come and stay with you? does your mom let you have guests for sleepovers?
most professors do write several journal articles and "books" a year. whether that's chapters, editing, or full-length monographs... they are constantly being published every year. honestly, i linked you one academic who hasn't exactly conformed to my description of "several journal articles and books a year", and now you're saying all this bullshit about me deleting posts? you are crazy dude. here's a more prominent academic, just because, you know, i'd hate for a scientist to accept one example as a universal rule.
http://literature.duke.edu/people?subpa … il=jameson
most professors do write several journal articles and "books" a year. whether that's chapters, editing, or full-length monographs... they are constantly being published every year. honestly, i linked you one academic who hasn't exactly conformed to my description of "several journal articles and books a year", and now you're saying all this bullshit about me deleting posts? you are crazy dude. here's a more prominent academic, just because, you know, i'd hate for a scientist to accept one example as a universal rule.
http://literature.duke.edu/people?subpa … il=jameson
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 06:56:27)
Uzique wrote:
they have to write several published articles and books a year
Uzique wrote:
where did i say "a few books a year"? i didn't say that. please learn to read.
It seems I am not the one who needs to learn to read.Uzique wrote:
"writing several published articles and books a year" is a fine description
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 06:57:15)
Fuck Israel
my original description stated they have to write several articles and books a year. in the post afterwards you challenged me because the one prof i linked hadn't written a whole book-length project every year. this doesn't contradict my original post. you are being inane. my point was that an academic has to output a lot of material every single year. whether or not several full-length books get published every single year throughout their whole career is a little pedantic. you don't normally turnaround a book publishing deal every year.
but yes, if you quote my three posts like that out of context, with no relation to your statement, it looks like i contradicted myself. but really you are nitpicking. academics quite clearly write several articles, book chapters, reviews/edits, monographs etc. every year. the workload is self-evidently high. if you want to be pedantic about my wording, feel free. i can just find you another academic that confirms my 'exact' wording (even though it was never intended to be an exact quote that universally fits all academics... surprising, that).
i think it's safe to assume that an academic is working and writing "several articles and books a year". i really don't see where you're getting the difficulty from. my second post is quoted completely out of context, because you challenged the point that he hadn't literally published a whole book every single year. this isn't how the book research/writing process goes. now you're construing an argument because i forgot what i said amongst my dozens of posts on the topic yesterday. you're taking my point out of context and are being a pedant. it's boring. and, need i remind you: this whole pedantic argument about "several books a year? where?" is based on ONE academic i linked you, off the top of my head, because i'm familiar with his departmental page. wow. you've really stumped me.
but yes, if you quote my three posts like that out of context, with no relation to your statement, it looks like i contradicted myself. but really you are nitpicking. academics quite clearly write several articles, book chapters, reviews/edits, monographs etc. every year. the workload is self-evidently high. if you want to be pedantic about my wording, feel free. i can just find you another academic that confirms my 'exact' wording (even though it was never intended to be an exact quote that universally fits all academics... surprising, that).
i think it's safe to assume that an academic is working and writing "several articles and books a year". i really don't see where you're getting the difficulty from. my second post is quoted completely out of context, because you challenged the point that he hadn't literally published a whole book every single year. this isn't how the book research/writing process goes. now you're construing an argument because i forgot what i said amongst my dozens of posts on the topic yesterday. you're taking my point out of context and are being a pedant. it's boring. and, need i remind you: this whole pedantic argument about "several books a year? where?" is based on ONE academic i linked you, off the top of my head, because i'm familiar with his departmental page. wow. you've really stumped me.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 07:03:43)
You made the claim, couldn't back it up, denied you'd made the claim, then admitted you had, now you're claiming it doesn't matter and you're right even though you still can't back it up - and I'm the one being nitpicking, pedantic and quoting out of context.
Well played, I suggest you use this approach in your viva - it should be fun to watch, can people buy seats?
But this discussion bores you now, how predictable.
Well played, I suggest you use this approach in your viva - it should be fun to watch, can people buy seats?
Not one every year, not two every year, not at his peak, not looking at any period on average, and you can't find a better example.Uzique wrote:
you challenged the point that he hadn't literally published a whole book every single year
But this discussion bores you now, how predictable.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 07:07:07)
Fuck Israel
lol academics write several journal articles and books a year. it's as simple as that. please keep telling me how i don't understand the nature and workload of the career i want to enter though. go find me some more academic publications lists. you obviously feel you are making a point out of the pedantry.
For example.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
lol academics write several journal articles and books a year
Why don't you? Apparently a typical academic writes several books a year, just pick a dozen typical academic and you're done right? Should be easy.go find me some more academic publications lists. you obviously feel you are making a point out of the pedantry.
Waiting for my pager to buzz now.
Fuck Israel
lol you clearly understand a lot about the publication process. an academic writes (or 'works on', if you prefer a more general term to help pierce through that cloud of dense fog that occludes your judgement) several journal articles and books a year. research takes up 70% of their job-hours. if you don't understand what an academic book involves in terms of research, work, citation etc. and if you don't understand the practicalities and time-frames involved in getting a book published, i.e. drafting, editing, proofing, printing etc. then that really is your problem. i am quite sure from my close proximity to academics that they are writing several journal articles and books a year. please though, you are clearly well educated and unbiased on the subject, please tell me more.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 07:13:27)
Ah, time to change the goalposts, an academic doesn't 'write' several books a year, he 'works on them'. Well played.
Fudge a definition here, throw in some insults which suggest you're an expert and I'm an ignorant dolt there and you're done.
Your academic rigour is a pleasure to see, a beaon in fact. I predict a bright future for you.
Fudge a definition here, throw in some insults which suggest you're an expert and I'm an ignorant dolt there and you're done.
Your academic rigour is a pleasure to see, a beaon in fact. I predict a bright future for you.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 07:19:51)
Fuck Israel
'writing' is just part of the work of being published. i am not changing the goal-posts at all. you are just failing to understand the job. which i have tried to explain to you. but which you only meet with pointless opposition. if you write a book in a year, doesn't mean that book is going to be immediately published the same year. an academic can be sitting on 3-4 books, trying to find a suitable publishing deal, for several years. some academics' work doesn't see light for 10 years. doesn't mean they didn't spend a year working on it. you are an idiot.
If they're writing >2 books a year and only getting one published every ~5 years thats a pretty poor success rate don't you think? Wou;dn't the average commercial publishing house in the real world say "look chap, its just not working, give it up mmkay?"
Taking your example, 1 book every 4.5 years, 20 pages of articles a year - that are good enough to be published - thats not exactly a lot of contribution for a full time salary would you say?
Does the University even receive the royalties from any book deal? Since the author is supposedly employed full time by them?
It doesn't sound like a bad life - be paid to do what you feel like and enjoy any profit yourself. Its not surprising there's a long queue.
Taking your example, 1 book every 4.5 years, 20 pages of articles a year - that are good enough to be published - thats not exactly a lot of contribution for a full time salary would you say?
Does the University even receive the royalties from any book deal? Since the author is supposedly employed full time by them?
It doesn't sound like a bad life - be paid to do what you feel like and enjoy any profit yourself. Its not surprising there's a long queue.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-03-28 07:32:56)
Fuck Israel
again, you clearly understand the publishing trade and the labour involved in getting a book published. you clearly also understand the nature of academic research, as i diagnosed so clearly to start. here's a hint: almost all of those journal articles they get published each year are redactions/adaptations of book-length topics/proposals. very few academics sit down and think "i'm going to write a specific article for this journal". the process normally involves doing loads of research on a topic, forming an idea/thesis, and then writing about it. if a book-length project doesn't become tenable or workable within the rest of the job's obligations, it normally gets edited down into a supplementary journal article. if they can find a publisher or research grant willing to run with it as as book, then they go the full route of writing it up in full. so, again: academics write several journal articles and books a year. they are constantly working on these projects. as i said in the first post.
but please.... tell me more.
but please.... tell me more.
where does this deep-seated hatred of professors come from dilbert? academia has been doing most of the significant scientific and other research for the past few hundred years.
did you go to university? professors work well over 20 hours a week - most of the ones i know are in their office 8-6 every day and often stay for late nights in their labs. i bet 20 hours a day is closer to the truth than per week. clearly you didnt go to university or went to some backwards one and are resentful for unknown reasons
and to if universities get royalties - usually a prof signs off that the university owns his work so the majority of profits and rights go to the university for their profit
e: also summers off? lol. i have friends that work in labs here and the professors usually work longer hours then since theyre putting full effort into their research. plus they usually have a summer course or two to teach, PhD students to mentor, conferences to attend, etc
did you go to university? professors work well over 20 hours a week - most of the ones i know are in their office 8-6 every day and often stay for late nights in their labs. i bet 20 hours a day is closer to the truth than per week. clearly you didnt go to university or went to some backwards one and are resentful for unknown reasons
and to if universities get royalties - usually a prof signs off that the university owns his work so the majority of profits and rights go to the university for their profit
e: also summers off? lol. i have friends that work in labs here and the professors usually work longer hours then since theyre putting full effort into their research. plus they usually have a summer course or two to teach, PhD students to mentor, conferences to attend, etc
Last edited by Winston_Churchill (2013-03-28 08:30:55)
I don't agree with Dilbert but lets not exaggerate the other way and pretend that most professors spend 20 hours a day at work.
I think it just fits in with him being able to take Uzi off topic for several pages at a time by making an ignorant statement about Uzis major. Hint dil, you are not a master troll if you have to respond with as much for as long as this to derail.
i didnt. i said they were closer to 20 hours a day than 20 hours a week.
id say on average a professor is at the university (or working elsewhere) ~50-70 hours a week -> 2.5-3.5 times what he estimates
on the other hand, a professor is probably going to be at university ~10-12 hours a day -> ~2 times less than 20 hours
so yes, my statement is valid
id say on average a professor is at the university (or working elsewhere) ~50-70 hours a week -> 2.5-3.5 times what he estimates
on the other hand, a professor is probably going to be at university ~10-12 hours a day -> ~2 times less than 20 hours
so yes, my statement is valid