BF2S Forums Can a devout Muslim be a good American?

Stingray24 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.

Incorrect ... on every point Islam and Christianity are polar opposites

Theologically - a Christian's allegiance is to God, but this does not mean they are prohibited from allegiance to their nation

Religiously - no other religion seen as valid, however Jesus did not instruct Christians to kill unbelievers, but rather show love

Geographically - a Christian's location has no bearing on their faith

Socially - the Christian is instructed to love their neighbor 

Politically/Intellectually/Philosophically/Spiritually  - the basic tenants of Christianity function nicely with representative government 

Domestically - a Christian man is instructed to love his wife just as Christ loves the Church, laying his life down for her if necessary

I'd say you have a lack of understanding.

I'm on the outside looking in, I have no religion, and to me there isn't any difference really between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim. They just use a different name for their deity. Neither religion as practiced by fundamentalists is tolerant of dissent. That whole 'love they neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek' stuff goes right out the window for both.

rdx-fx wrote:

It depends on the current popular interpretation of Islam, and the individual's interpretation of their own faith.

Some generations, Islam chooses to put forward a tolerant face.
Other generations, Islam is xenophobic, jihad prone, and genocidal.

The line "from the shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Hymn - from the first Barbary War, 1801.
USA has been fighting jihadi Muslims (with a 'kill or plunder all infidel' mentality) since we've been a country.
If you really want to talk like a pirate this next September 19th, learn Arabic

Short answer;
A Muslim who's interpretation of Islam finds the Koran to be compatible with the Constitution and rule of law in America, could make a good American.
A Muslim who comes to America with the mindset that their beliefs outweigh the Constitution and rule of law, is probably going to have some difficulty adjusting.

to be honest i thought this was kind of obvious.

rdx-fx wrote:

Spark wrote:

to be honest i thought this was kind of obvious.

It's 't3h innarwebz'.  Best not to assume the obvious is apparent to the majority of viewers.

this is true

rdx-fx wrote:

I'd love to see the reaction if the below sign was on the road to Jerusalem, rather than in Saudi Arabia headed towards Mecca.

http://antikafirphobia.files.wordpress. … adsign.jpg

"random screening"

rdx-fx wrote:

I'd love to see the reaction if the below sign was on the road to Jerusalem, rather than in Saudi Arabia headed towards Mecca.

http://antikafirphobia.files.wordpress. … adsign.jpg

Religious separation certainly isn't limited to Muslim nations, however.

Can an atheist be a good American?





I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances of the OP, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and "Muslims" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

Can an Atheist be a real American?

In light of the holy wars and religious tension that has continued to rage on, (often by people who had sworn to not murder, steal and wage war) this article becomes more timely and real than ever;

Can a good atheist be a good American?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in the real world for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to nobody, he has no moral compass to live by.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his faith, except possibly "science". And that is no religion.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the none of them. How can he be trusted without believing in scripture, The Holy word of God?

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to nowhere, and nothing, how can he hold America more important than another country? Our God more sacred than a false God?

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to atheism forbids him to make friends with fanatical Christians or Jews or Muslims. He can never accept their religious practices and views. They are simply incompatible with his own.

Politically - no. Because he doesn't submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan. Or kneel before the Pope (the Christian God's representative on Earth), who teachers that abortion is evil, same sex marriage is wrong and condom use is against the teachings of Jesus, that all life is sacred.

Domestically - no. Because he has no faith in the holy sanctity of marriage, which is a holy communion that takes place in a Church, before God as witness. What possible reason does he have to hold marriage as sacred and not divorce his wife on a simple whim?

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be false. In God We Trust is an oath all Americans must take, to truly be American.

Philosophically - no. Because Christianity, Jesus, and the Bible do not allow the denial of their existence to be true. Nor false idols, either. Their is only one true God. Further more, science and Christianity cannot co-exist. Every Christian government is either anti-science or anti-intellectual. See stem cell research opponents. Chances are they are religious.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Atheist's God does not exist, while Jesus is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever considered real in an atheists mind.

Last edited by AussieReaper (2010-02-27 22:07:42)

AussieReaper wrote:

Can an atheist be a good American?


http://i46.tinypic.com/a5rly.jpg


I find this to be an interesting "proposition" or "theorem" not only in view of the circumstances of the OP, but also in view of the transgressions of both "Christians" and "Jews" and "Hindu's" and "Shintos" and "Muslims" and pretty much all the members of the world's 'big' religions if they are measured by these same standards.

Can an Atheist be a real American?

In light of the holy wars and religious tension that has continued to rage on, (often by people who had sworn to not murder, steal and wage war) this article becomes more timely and real than ever;

Can a good atheist be a good American?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in the real world for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to nobody, he has no moral compass to live by.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his faith, except possibly "science". And that is no religion.

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the none of them. How can he be trusted without believing in scripture, The Holy word of God?

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to nowhere, and nothing, how can he hold America more important than another country? Our God more sacred than a false God?

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to atheism forbids him to make friends with fanatical Christians or Jews or Muslims. He can never accept their religious practices and views. They are simply incompatible with his own.

Politically - no. Because he doesn't submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan. Or kneel before the Pope (the Christian God's representative on Earth), who teachers that abortion is evil, same sex marriage is wrong and condom use is against the teachings of Jesus, that all life is sacred.

Domestically - no. Because he has no faith in the holy sanctity of marriage, which is a holy communion that takes place in a Church, before God as witness. What possible reason does he have to hold marriage as sacred and not divorce his wife on a simple whim?

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be false. In God We Trust is an oath all Americans must take, to truly be American.

Philosophically - no. Because Christianity, Jesus, and the Bible do not allow the denial of their existence to be true. Nor false idols, either. Their is only one true God. Further more, science and Christianity cannot co-exist. Every Christian government is either anti-science or anti-intellectual. See stem cell research opponents. Chances are they are religious.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Atheist's God does not exist, while Jesus is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever considered real in an atheists mind.

Although I'd say that's more nihilist than atheist, well done.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why would you quote such a stupid article? Everything they said about Muslims could easily be said about devout Christians.

Incorrect ... on every point Islam and Christianity are polar opposites

Theologically - a Christian's allegiance is to God, but this does not mean they are prohibited from allegiance to their nation

Religiously - no other religion seen as valid, however Jesus did not instruct Christians to kill unbelievers, but rather show love

Geographically - a Christian's location has no bearing on their faith

Socially - the Christian is instructed to love their neighbor 

Politically/Intellectually/Philosophically/Spiritually  - the basic tenants of Christianity function nicely with representative government 

Domestically - a Christian man is instructed to love his wife just as Christ loves the Church, laying his life down for her if necessary

I'd say you have a lack of understanding.

I'm on the outside looking in, I have no religion, and to me there isn't any difference really between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim. They just use a different name for their deity. Neither religion as practiced by fundamentalists is tolerant of dissent. That whole 'love they neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek' stuff goes right out the window for both.

Respectfully disagree.  If you ask a devout Muslim and devout Christian to describe the character of their deity, you will find Allah and Jehovah are almost polar opposites.  If you claim no faith, that's certainly your right, but that does not enable you to define the teachings of either religion as something they are not.

Stingray24 wrote:

Respectfully disagree.  If you ask a devout Muslim and devout Christian to describe the character of their deity, you will find Allah and Jehovah are almost polar opposites.  If you claim no faith, that's certainly your right, but that does not enable you to define the teachings of either religion as something they are not.

Respectfully disagree with you. I'd say you can have two 'devout muslims' who disagree about fundamental aspects of their faith, and two 'devout christians' who do likewise. I'd further suggest that a Muslim and a Christian could have basically exactly the same opinion about what their deity's 'character' is like. Fact is you interpret the teachings of Christianity one way, which many might agree with, but certainly thousands more would disagree with. Same with any follower of any religion.

Nobody actually practices 'Christianity', i.e., follows the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, at least not anyone I know or have ever known. I don't know any branch of 'Christianity' that focuses solely on the four gospels and disregards all the rest of the inane peripheral bullshit (Old Testament, etc.).

I'm actually rereading the Gospels at the moment. They are self-contradictory. On the one hand he preaches fire, brimstone and eternal damnation to those who don't follow the right path (how gentle and loving!) but he also preaches forgiveness and repentence: basically you can be as debauched and self centred as you want so long as you repent just before you pop your clogs. Win! He basically invented a religion for lazy people.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-03-01 12:46:24)

CameronPoe wrote:

Nobody actually practices 'Christianity', i.e., follows the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, at least not anyone I know or have ever known. I don't know any branch of 'Christianity' that focuses solely on the four gospels and disregards all the rest of the inane peripheral bullshit (Old Testament, etc.).

I'm actually rereading the Gospels at the moment. They are self-contradictory. On the one hand he preaches fire, brimstone and eternal damnation to those who don't follow the right path (how gentle and loving!) but he also preaches forgiveness and repentence: basically you can be as debauched and self centred as you want so long as you repent just before you pop your clogs. Win! He basically invented a religion for lazy people.

Good points.  Although the Quran seems to contradict itself a lot as well....

Ticia wrote:

About the article...good and american don't ever go together :p

what am i missing? i joined a game forum three and a half years ago. took some geography, i finished school,  traveled when i could. why all the anti-americanism? i see people post - hell i'm logged in all waking hours - and it seems like some members just take their hacks on the USA any chance they can. i wish i could show each of you the land, but i know that's not your bitch with america. i could introduce you to people, who would give you the food off their table. what am i missing?

rdx-fx wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Good points.  Although the Quran seems to contradict itself a lot as well....

If verses contradict, go with the most recent addition.
..or, whichever verse supports the political agenda of those in power

well this, really