-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California

Bertster7 wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Oil, silly. Don't you read the rants on bf2s?
BF2s isn't a big player in my life. That's why I miss out on a lot.

So since I love learning so much (I'm not being sarcastic) why don't you all educate me.
Summary:

Evidence of ties to terrorism was non-existent
Evidence of WMDs was sketchy/fabricated

Real reason for war was probably something to do with oil - since it's where all the money is or just because Saddam was a prick.

That's my take on it anyway.
Iraq was a big helper to the terrorists I thought. That's good enough a reason along with the fact Saddam massacred his own people and used bio weapons.

More money was put into the war than came from it with oil, I doubt the politicians would be stupid enough to invade for that.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought you were going to reply with substance and actually address his question.

Nvm. Why would I think that?

ruisleipa wrote:

a) what you think...I couldn't care less since you've completely failed to read and understand my posts in other threads, no reason this one should be any different.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:


BF2s isn't a big player in my life. That's why I miss out on a lot.

So since I love learning so much (I'm not being sarcastic) why don't you all educate me.
Summary:

Evidence of ties to terrorism was non-existent
Evidence of WMDs was sketchy/fabricated

Real reason for war was probably something to do with oil - since it's where all the money is or just because Saddam was a prick.

That's my take on it anyway.
Iraq was a big helper to the terrorists I thought. That's good enough a reason along with the fact Saddam massacred his own people and used bio weapons.

More money was put into the war than came from it with oil, I doubt the politicians would be stupid enough to invade for that.
No, Iraq was not a big helper to terrorists. There was one mention of Zarqawi running around Baghdad pre-war and his links to AQ, but that was never provided as a causus belli.

The WMD intel was the result of an elaborate deception campaign Saddam was running to keep Iran thinking he had an active program because he didn't want them to think he was as weak as he was--he was paranoid they would invade or something. So his deception campaign worked beautifully--Western collection picked up everything Iran was supposed to see and everyone saw evidence of an active program. He couldn't say it was a ruse, otherwise Iran would know and he would appear weak. Abysmally stupid on his part, but verified via multiple sources well after the fact.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought you were going to reply with substance and actually address his question.

Nvm. Why would I think that?

ruisleipa wrote:

a) what you think...I couldn't care less since you've completely failed to read and understand my posts in other threads, no reason this one should be any different.
Oh yes. Your posts are so difficult to understand.

News for you: I understand your posts completely. Not agreeing with your arguments =/= not understanding them.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

Oh yes. Your posts are so difficult to understand.

News for you: I understand your posts completely. Not agreeing with your arguments =/= not understanding them.
oh look I can post it again:

ruisleipa wrote:

a) what you think...I couldn't care less since you've completely failed to read and understand my posts in other threads, no reason this one should be any different.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Oh yes. Your posts are so difficult to understand.

News for you: I understand your posts completely. Not agreeing with your arguments =/= not understanding them.
oh look I can post it again:

ruisleipa wrote:

a) what you think...I couldn't care less since you've completely failed to read and understand my posts in other threads, no reason this one should be any different.
Quoting yourself repeatedly...even when it makes no sense to do so.

Yep. You definitely are rammunition.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California

FEOS wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Summary:

Evidence of ties to terrorism was non-existent
Evidence of WMDs was sketchy/fabricated

Real reason for war was probably something to do with oil - since it's where all the money is or just because Saddam was a prick.

That's my take on it anyway.
Iraq was a big helper to the terrorists I thought. That's good enough a reason along with the fact Saddam massacred his own people and used bio weapons.

More money was put into the war than came from it with oil, I doubt the politicians would be stupid enough to invade for that.
No, Iraq was not a big helper to terrorists. There was one mention of Zarqawi running around Baghdad pre-war and his links to AQ, but that was never provided as a causus belli.

The WMD intel was the result of an elaborate deception campaign Saddam was running to keep Iran thinking he had an active program because he didn't want them to think he was as weak as he was--he was paranoid they would invade or something. So his deception campaign worked beautifully--Western collection picked up everything Iran was supposed to see and everyone saw evidence of an active program. He couldn't say it was a ruse, otherwise Iran would know and he would appear weak. Abysmally stupid on his part, but verified via multiple sources well after the fact.
So...what did he use against his people up North than?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

-Sh1fty- wrote:

FEOS wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:


Iraq was a big helper to the terrorists I thought. That's good enough a reason along with the fact Saddam massacred his own people and used bio weapons.

More money was put into the war than came from it with oil, I doubt the politicians would be stupid enough to invade for that.
No, Iraq was not a big helper to terrorists. There was one mention of Zarqawi running around Baghdad pre-war and his links to AQ, but that was never provided as a causus belli.

The WMD intel was the result of an elaborate deception campaign Saddam was running to keep Iran thinking he had an active program because he didn't want them to think he was as weak as he was--he was paranoid they would invade or something. So his deception campaign worked beautifully--Western collection picked up everything Iran was supposed to see and everyone saw evidence of an active program. He couldn't say it was a ruse, otherwise Iran would know and he would appear weak. Abysmally stupid on his part, but verified via multiple sources well after the fact.
So...what did he use against his people up North than?
That was a long time ago, even though that incident was used as part of the overall case (previous use, to include Iran-Iraq War).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6759|Kakanien

Bertster7 wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Looks like someone needs to read the definition of war crime.
you said it. And that person is you.
No - he is quite right. War crimes are crimes commited as a part of a war. They concern the way the war is waged.

Crimes against peace (different from war crimes, but still prohibited under international law) are what waging a war of aggression is. This is defined under the Nuremberg Principles and the UN charter.
yes, you're right. didn't check the wiki article properly. what i was pointing out was the fact that waging a war of aggression is a crime against peace.

here's the four indictments of the nuremberg trials:

   1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
   2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
   3. War crimes
   4. Crimes against humanity

well, point 1 and 2 apply regarding the iraq war

and there have without a doubt been war crimes, e.g. targeting of civilians, excessive attacks, killing of civilians by single us soldiers (like haditha and mahmudiyah etc.), although you cannot blame most of them to the us government (like my lai etc.)
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6867|SE London

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:


BF2s isn't a big player in my life. That's why I miss out on a lot.

So since I love learning so much (I'm not being sarcastic) why don't you all educate me.
Summary:

Evidence of ties to terrorism was non-existent
Evidence of WMDs was sketchy/fabricated

Real reason for war was probably something to do with oil - since it's where all the money is or just because Saddam was a prick.

That's my take on it anyway.
Iraq was a big helper to the terrorists I thought. That's good enough a reason along with the fact Saddam massacred his own people and used bio weapons.
No he wasn't. He hated them and Iraq was very much a terrorism free zone. Invading Iraq has changed that.

-Sh1fty- wrote:

More money was put into the war than came from it with oil, I doubt the politicians would be stupid enough to invade for that.
Indeed it was. There are a number of counterpoints to that; politicians are often very stupid and greedy, many of those involved in the war moved in circles where many of their friends have benefited from lucrative oil and reconstruction contracts, the oil was seen as an offset to the cost of a war to remove a very unpleasant dictator, we haven't even begun to reap the rewards that a stable supply of oil from Iraq will bring - yet.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6867|SE London

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:


you said it. And that person is you.
No - he is quite right. War crimes are crimes commited as a part of a war. They concern the way the war is waged.

Crimes against peace (different from war crimes, but still prohibited under international law) are what waging a war of aggression is. This is defined under the Nuremberg Principles and the UN charter.
yes, you're right. didn't check the wiki article properly. what i was pointing out was the fact that waging a war of aggression is a crime against peace.

here's the four indictments of the nuremberg trials:

   1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
   2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
   3. War crimes
   4. Crimes against humanity

well, point 1 and 2 apply regarding the iraq war

and there have without a doubt been war crimes, e.g. targeting of civilians, excessive attacks, killing of civilians by single us soldiers (like haditha and mahmudiyah etc.), although you cannot blame most of them to the us government (like my lai etc.)
Well then we agree.

No case for war crimes (by the administrations involved at least).

There was a legal case made for war based on resolution 1441 - that case was incredibly shaky (just look at Lord Goldsmiths appearance in the Chilcot inquiry) and if that were not to hold up, then the US and UK would be guilty of crimes against peace. Not that anyone would do anything about it.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6867|SE London

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

As I suspected. You've got nothing. And still haven't bothered to respond to Bert.

I'll keep waiting.
lmao you have such selective understanding, or should I say a blinkered way of understanding. I did reply to bert. Guantanamo.
When?

You've listed a specific war crime they are guilty of?

3rd and 4th GCs are not crimes. Guantanamo is not a crime. You need to get a better grip of what a crime is.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6392|eXtreme to the maX

-Sh1fty- wrote:

So what was the Iraqi war for?
We still don't know.
Fuck Israel
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

Dilbert_X wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

So what was the Iraqi war for?
We still don't know.
Mcdonalds and Starbucks.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Benzin
Member
+576|6284

Bertster7 wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

As I suspected. You've got nothing. And still haven't bothered to respond to Bert.

I'll keep waiting.
lmao you have such selective understanding, or should I say a blinkered way of understanding. I did reply to bert. Guantanamo.
When?

You've listed a specific war crime they are guilty of?

3rd and 4th GCs are not crimes. Guantanamo is not a crime. You need to get a better grip of what a crime is.
Last I checked, torture was concerned inhuman treatment of POW.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

CapnNismo wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

lmao you have such selective understanding, or should I say a blinkered way of understanding. I did reply to bert. Guantanamo.
When?

You've listed a specific war crime they are guilty of?

3rd and 4th GCs are not crimes. Guantanamo is not a crime. You need to get a better grip of what a crime is.
Last I checked, torture was concerned inhuman treatment of POW.
People who aren't wearing uniforms aren't protected by the Geneva Convention.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
jord
Member
+2,382|6964|The North, beyond the wall.
Stress positions aren't torture anyway, they do suck though
Benzin
Member
+576|6284

Cybargs wrote:

People who aren't wearing uniforms aren't protected by the Geneva Convention.
Kinda hard to have uniforms if your terrorist/rebel organization of choice can't afford them... That's a legal loophole and nothing else (I half-think that you're talking out of your ass, though, and would love to see some proof).
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5523|Cleveland, Ohio
this thread is funny.  at least jord, cybargs, feos, and some others have a brain.
Karbin
Member
+42|6580

CapnNismo wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

People who aren't wearing uniforms aren't protected by the Geneva Convention.
Kinda hard to have uniforms if your terrorist/rebel organization of choice can't afford them... That's a legal loophole and nothing else (I half-think that you're talking out of your ass, though, and would love to see some proof).
Convention (III) relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.


http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b28 … 1e004a9e68

Article 4 Para 6

" Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

First.
The territory must start out as "Non-occupied"
Second.
"Respect the laws and customs of war"

The forces covered in art 4 (6) MUST operate under the Conventions until captured to rate P.O.W. status.
As well, if such forces, at a time after said invasion, fall under the control of regular armed units, they would then be under Article 4 Para 2.

When the U.S. went into Afg, Iraq, you could have "fighters" covered under 4 (6) for around 24-48 hours. After that they would have to operate under
4 (2).
Fail to do so and they become "Unlawful combatants" and are not covered for P.O.W. status.

Last edited by Karbin (2010-02-21 07:23:31)

Benzin
Member
+576|6284
I see no where in that a restriction on 24-48 hours...

I'm going to quote the entire thing, however, because there are a few parts that are interesting that you left out, Karbin.

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
Article 4, Part A, Paragraph 3 could certainly apply here to anyone fighting for Al Qaeda. They undergo combat training, do they not? I think that certainly qualifies them for POW status as they are aligning with a political power not recognized by the US or NATO. Then you have many prisoners that were captured that were former Baath Party (I hope I spelled that right) members/soldiers.

Now on to Afghanistan: Many Taliban fighters are simply people taking up arms on the approach of NATO forces that have no real political/ideological ties to the Taliban, but believe the foreigners to be the true aggressors. Just because the foreigners are within the borders of Afghanistan does not mean that they have to immediately take up arms and go and charge them even though they are no where near their territory. Again, your posted time of "24-48 hours" that these fighters have to switch from spontaneous to regular is NO WHERE to be found in the Geneva Convention and thus holds no weight whatsoever when used with the (incomplete) evidence you've posted.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5523|Cleveland, Ohio
didnt read the whole thread (laughing too hard) but i am sure some retard mentioned gitmo.  well, since obama said after one year its all on him.....gitmo is still open.  so, obama on trial also mr. OP yes?
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5523|Cleveland, Ohio
oh and we are still in iraq after a year of obama, so put him on trial for that also.
Benzin
Member
+576|6284
Well that would depend on whether or not there exists proof that shows Obama still authorizing torture on inmates being detained at Guantanamo Bay or not.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5523|Cleveland, Ohio

CapnNismo wrote:

Well that would depend on whether or not there exists proof that shows Obama still authorizing torture on inmates being detained at Guantanamo Bay or not.
fine.  we are still in iraq though.  what say you about that, eh?

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