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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5470

Dilbert_X wrote:

ATG wrote:

Main difference, if it hasn't been pointed out, is that he was trying to buy arms to be most certainly used against Israel; an act of war.
So giving Israel free weapons is also an act of war?
Well Israel isn't exactly recognized as a Terrorist organization by the EU, US, Japan and also fucking Jordan. Israel is in a tough position you must admit. Their neighbors have been shouting their deaths for the past 40 years, trying to gang bang them and lost... Now they're bitching. I'd rather have Israel as an ally than all of the oil in the ME.
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Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,609|5375|London, England
The only reason Israel is an ally is because of all the oil in the ME
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land

Cybargs wrote:

Well Israel isn't exactly recognized as a Terrorist organization by the EU, US, Japan and also fucking Jordan. Israel is in a tough position you must admit. Their neighbors have been shouting their deaths for the past 40 years, trying to gang bang them and lost... Now they're bitching. I'd rather have Israel as an ally than all of the oil in the ME.
no but they are recognised as consistent human rights abusers. But it's OK to send weapons to them yeah?
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5470

Mekstizzle wrote:

The only reason Israel is an ally is because of all the oil in the ME
Moar like jewish lobbiest tbh. And holocaust.

Rui: Every country has countless human rights abuse. Once they start strapping bombs to kids then give me a call. Not exactly their fucking fault they have to drop warning letters in a city before the level it. Hey, at least they're giving people warnings.
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ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land

Cybargs wrote:

Rui: Every country has countless human rights abuse. Once they start strapping bombs to kids then give me a call. Not exactly their fucking fault they have to drop warning letters in a city before the level it. Hey, at least they're giving people warnings.
Every country? Countless? Really? I don't think so.

I've never said strapping bombs to kids is right. But bombing them isn't right either. As for the warnings - yeah right, it just doesn't happen. I like the way though you say 'it's not their fault they have to drop warnings' - like they'd rather not! Which they don't anyway.

Also, not many countries have got away with killing UN observers as well as denying basic human rights not only to a significant proportion of their OWN citizens but also militariliy and economically blockading/occupying another country in direct contravention of international law for so long. Nor do other countries which pretend to be 'enlightened' and 'democratic', and even 'Western' commit such atrocities. There's no comparison. The single biggest cause of the conflict in the ME is Israel and it's actions, full stop.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5470

ruisleipa wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Rui: Every country has countless human rights abuse. Once they start strapping bombs to kids then give me a call. Not exactly their fucking fault they have to drop warning letters in a city before the level it. Hey, at least they're giving people warnings.
Every country? Countless? Really? I don't think so.

I've never said strapping bombs to kids is right. But bombing them isn't right either. As for the warnings - yeah right, it just doesn't happen. I like the way though you say 'it's not their fault they have to drop warnings' - like they'd rather not! Which they don't anyway.

Also, not many countries have got away with killing UN observers as well as denying basic human rights not only to a significant proportion of their OWN citizens but also militariliy and economically blockading/occupying another country in direct contravention of international law for so long. Nor do other countries which pretend to be 'enlightened' and 'democratic', and even 'Western' commit such atrocities. There's no comparison. The single biggest cause of the conflict in the ME is Israel and it's actions, full stop.
Yes every country has a long history of depriving human rights, even in the 20th century.

So religious intolerance and fundamentalism has nothing to do with all conflicts in ME? So Isreal's at fault for the Iran-Iraq wars?

They do drop leaflets, it's logical for PR and lower collateral damage

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … rael-truce

We can agree the Arabs don't exactly like Jews, but kicking the Jews out of the ME because of intolerance doesn't solve anything at all.
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ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land

Cybargs wrote:

Yes every country has a long history of depriving human rights, even in the 20th century.
Sorry that's just not true. Maybe several countries do (Burma, Zimbabwe...Israel), but not every country. Not true at all.

Cybargs wrote:

So religious intolerance and fundamentalism has nothing to do with all conflicts in ME? So Isreal's at fault for the Iran-Iraq wars?
Yes of course it does. And no it isn't.

I said THE SINGLE BIGGEST, not the ONLY. There's a difference.

Cybargs wrote:

They do drop leaflets, it's logical for PR and lower collateral damage
Well, they have done. At least they ONCE dropped 'general warnings' to civilians that they are escalating their military offensive. Big deal. Since they don't give anywhere for the civilians to go it kinda defeats the purpose of warning them doesn't it? Do I have to dig out the statsitics showing the hundreds of civilian deaths caused by Israel including many children to demonstrate that they just donä't give a shite about Palestinian civilian casualties or deaths, or 'collateral damage' as you put it. Israel's 'PR' sucks anyway. Their best PR would be to pull out of Palestine, stop starving the people, give basic rights back to them and let them live their lives without fear of tanks bulldozing their homes. That'd be a good start at least.

Cybargs wrote:

We can agree the Arabs don't exactly like Jews, but kicking the Jews out of the ME because of intolerance doesn't solve anything at all.
I never said we should 'kick out the jews'. But they have to recognise that their aggressive, intolerant and bellicose policies are exacerbating the situation, not in the slightest resolving it.

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-02-17 08:37:55)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5470

ruisleipa wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

They do drop leaflets, it's logical for PR and lower collateral damage
Well, they have done. At least they ONCE dropped 'general warnings' to civilians that they are escalating their military offensive. Big deal. Since they don't give anywhere for the civilians to go it kinda defeats the purpose of warning them doesn't it? Do I have to dig out the statsitics showing the hundreds of civilian deaths caused by Israel including many children to demonstrate that they just donä't give a shite about Palestinian civilian casualties or deaths, or 'collateral damage' as you put it. Israel's 'PR' sucks anyway. Their best PR would be to pull out of Palestine, stop starving the people, give basic rights back to them and let them live their lives without fear of tanks bulldozing their homes. That'd be a good start at least.
Civi casualties wouldn't be that high if Hamas decided not to use them as cover now wouldn't it? It's not exactly easy keeping civilian casualties low whilst fighting in a high density urban area. Once Hamas stops planning on lobbing rockets into Israel on a daily basis, maybe they'll loosen up the military blockade. Yes it is terrible but what would you expect the Isreali's to do? Sit and wait until they get rocketed again and again? It's a shitty situation, but something has to be done.
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FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

JahManRed wrote:

ATG wrote:

...good riddance to bad rubbish.
Its easy to say that. But it was a summery execution. No trial. All we have is the word of Israel and that's not worth a penny on the international stage. We don't have nukes........lol. We don't use phosphorus shells in built up areas............list goes on.
I agree that this guy was 99% most probably an arms dealer who sells death and probably deserved what he got. But trials and laws are what separate us from the savages. When we bypass these then we are savages.
But when it's done in international waters or something, it's OK (reference your earlier post about the UK)?

How do you know this guy wasn't found guilty in an Israeli court and this was the carrying out of the sentence (assuming it was the Israelis)? If so, then it wasn't a "summary execution", then, was it?

Bottomline, nobody knows those details, one way or the other. So arguments either way are speculation.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land
Seems the UK has summoned the Israeil ambassador to explain the use of UK passports so obviously they think the Israelis did it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/fe … bai-murder

@cybargs

yes it is deplorable that Hamas has used human shields. but so does Israel. Israel also steals land constantly, refuses medical care into Gaza and other places, prevents freedom of movement, destroys houses, uses phosphorous shells in civilian areas, has killed thousands of civilians (and how many have Hamas' shite rockets killed? a bare fraction of the casualties caused by Israel - and those by accident), doesn't allow Palestinian Israelis the vote, denies Palestinians freedom of movement and association, and conducts extra-judicial assassinations in sovereign countries instead of trying to apprehend and try the accused in a court of law (to name just a few points, but I could go if you want).

You should also bear in mind that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas anywhere. There's no room to go anywhere, and the reason for that is that the Israelis have made it that way.

I mean, seriously, the catalogue of HR abuses committed by Israel puts almost any other country on earth to shame, with perhaps the exceptions of Zimbabwe and Burma, previously mentioned. I just don't understand how anyone can support their actions.

I'm not saying Israel should cease to exist, but they must stop the abuses. They have lost all moral authority they may otherwise have had by engaging in illegal and immoral actions time and time again for decades. Israel has pretty much created the perfect conditions for everyone to hate them. Before the 30s and WWII there were Jews and Arabs living perfectly peacefully in 'the holy land'. Since the mad zionists created their state with the help of the brits they've done a great job of making all the arab countries hate them. They made their own bed, pretty much.

@FEOS even if he WAS found guilty in an Israeli court (and yeah right that was gonna be a fair trial...not) then you can't just go and kill someone in another country. It's just wrong. Imagine if a UK court found Bush guilty of war crimes and shot him in Texas - what an uproar there'd be! I'm 110% sure you wouldn't stand for it. It wouldn't be OK then, and it's not OK now. No we don't know the details of any Israeli court order or whatever, but it's entirely irrelevant under the law. That's a fact.
JahManRed
wank
+646|5382|IRELAND

Cybargs wrote:

They do drop leaflets, it's logical for PR and lower collateral damage
Typically when any war breaks out we see a huge movement of the civilian populous. Sudan, Lebanon etc. The civilians leave so they can avoid the bombings. Israel doesn't allow the Palestinians free movement, they are stuck in the ghetto that Israeli's created. Pointless dropping leaflets saying "we are going to bomb Palestine" they have been doing that sporadically since 1948. If they could move freely and say they wanted to abandon their homes and left their county every time Israel drops bombs on them. The country would be empty. The Lebanese know that they can return to their land after the war. If a Palestinian could leave their land.........what would they find when they return? A Jewish settlement where they once lived.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

@FEOS even if he WAS found guilty in an Israeli court (and yeah right that was gonna be a fair trial...not) then you can't just go and kill someone in another country. It's just wrong. Imagine if a UK court found Bush guilty of war crimes and shot him in Texas - what an uproar there'd be! I'm 110% sure you wouldn't stand for it. It wouldn't be OK then, and it's not OK now. No we don't know the details of any Israeli court order or whatever, but it's entirely irrelevant under the law. That's a fact.
First: Your presumption that he couldn't get a fair trial in an Israeli court is interesting. Could an Israeli get a fair trial in a Palestinian court? I bet you'd say yes.

Second: I never said it was OK to go and kill someone on someone else's territory. I was pointing out the "summary execution" term used, which alludes to a lack of a trial, not the right or wrongness of doing it in another country. That's a diplomatic issue, tbh. And if you think the Israelis are the only country that engages in that kind of stuff, you're living in fantasy land. Every country does it...the Israelis just don't really care if people find out they did.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

First: Your presumption that he couldn't get a fair trial in an Israeli court is interesting. Could an Israeli get a fair trial in a Palestinian court? I bet you'd say yes.

Second: I never said it was OK to go and kill someone on someone else's territory. I was pointing out the "summary execution" term used, which alludes to a lack of a trial, not the right or wrongness of doing it in another country. That's a diplomatic issue, tbh. And if you think the Israelis are the only country that engages in that kind of stuff, you're living in fantasy land. Every country does it...the Israelis just don't really care if people find out they did.
1. I dunno if an Israeli could get a fair trial in a Palestinian court. Depends what he was on trial for, but possibly. But since their whole national infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, I doubt they even have a fully functioning court system. And so what anyway? You brought up the vague possibility - not mentioned in any reports or other material on the topic - that he might have got a trial of some kind. Israel are supposed to be a damn beacon of democracy in the ME and they do all this stuff, it beggars belief. But as you point out there's no way of knowing even IF he got any kind of trial in Israel, which I strongly doubt in the first place, and since it's just conjecture it's pretty much irrelevant anyway, and even if he DID get tried in absentia and got a death sentence it is still wrong to assassinate someone, never mind all the issues of sovereignity etc. Finally, do you think a trial in absentia is ever a fair trial? If the accused isn't given the chance to defend himself, and maybe no-one does defend him, I'd say no. So no, this wouldn't be a fair trial.

I can also say that I think it perfectly possible that a Palestinian would be given a fair trial in Israel, but not this guy in the case we're talking about, and I'd further suggest that in any court action concerning settlements or having their homes bulldozed for example then no, Palestinians almost certainly would NOT get a fair trial since the whole system is skewed drastically in favour of settlers.

2. 'Every country does it' That is just bollocks mate, sorry. Like Cybarg's previous assertion that 'every' country has a massive list of HR abuses they've committed in the past. Fact is there is at least one country which has been proven to commit assassinations time and again: Israel. If you know of any more go ahead and list 'em, but it doesn't make it right anyway, even if there were two, five or twenty countries doing it. I am 100% certain that at this point Finland doesn't engage in assassinations, so there's your theory blown out of the water straight off. It makes f-all difference if you call it summary execution or extra-judicial killing or whatever. You're just picking up on semantics and avoiding the real issue(s).

oh, and if Israel doesn't care who knows why don't they admit it? Err...maybe because they're suposed to be a beacon of democracy and upholding Western values blah blah, etc etc....

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-02-17 13:28:35)

Braddock
Agitator
+916|5044|Éire

Cybargs wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

The only reason Israel is an ally is because of all the oil in the ME
Moar like jewish lobbiest tbh. And holocaust.

Rui: Every country has countless human rights abuse. Once they start strapping bombs to kids then give me a call. Not exactly their fucking fault they have to drop warning letters in a city before the level it. Hey, at least they're giving people warnings.
I would disagree that every country has countless human rights abuses and certainly not all on the same scale. Are you claiming that sending weapons to Israel is no different to sending weapons to say Switzerland or Liechtenstein? Just out of curiosity what would your opinion be of weapons being given to Zimbabwe (a sovereign nation with similar accusations of human rights abuses)?

Also, the Palestinians can't leave when bombings start, they're stuck in the ghetto that the Israeli regime (and Egyptians) have created for them. They don't even have full control over their own power or water.
JahManRed
wank
+646|5382|IRELAND

FEOS wrote:

But when it's done in international waters or something, it's OK (reference your earlier post about the UK)?
No, they arrested them and put them on trial. Thatcher brought in the shoot to kill policy which seen known, unarmed terrorists executed in Gibraltar. It was a disaster as the ranks of the IRA increased overnight as a result and they called it off.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5470
Damn yo I just read the article. If it was Mossad, they really need to brush up on the not getting caught on camera's skills.
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mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|5518|d
'Dubai police chief 99% sure Israel behind Hamas killing'

Dubai police chief Dahi Khalfan Tamim said he is 99 percent sure Israel was involved in the January killing of a Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh at a Dubai luxury hotel, according to a report published Thursday in an Emirati newspaper.

"Our investigations reveal that Mossad is involved in the murder of al-Mabhouh. It is 99 percent, if not 100 percent, that Mossad is standing behind the murder," Tamim told The National newspaper.

Haaretz earlier Thursday learned the identities of two Palestinians arrested in Jordan in connection with the January 20 killing at a Dubai hotel.
    Advertisement

Ahmad Hasnin, a Palestinian intelligence operative, and Anwar Shekhaiber, an employee of the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah, were arrested in the Jordanian capital Amman.

Jordan on Tuesday confirmed it had extradited the two to Dubai.

The two were residents of the Gaza Strip until Hamas seized control there in 2007, a Hamas source told Haaretz.

Both moved to Dubai, where they were employed by a real estate company belonging to a senior official of Fatah, the political faction headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

A third man, a Hamas security operative, is under arrest in Syria on suspicion of having assisted the hit squad, the British daily The Guardian reported late Wednesday.

Palestinian sources in the Gulf said Nahro Massoud was in detention and under interrogation in Damascus, the Guardian reported.

Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshal has denied the allegation, according to the report, saying "It is not correct at all".

But Palestinian sources insisted Massoud was being questioned amid speculation that potentially senior Palestinian defectors may have been involved in the plot.

Dubai to hand retina scans to Interpol'

Dubai police said Wednesday investigators had successfully recreated a detailed picture of the operation. The official Web site of the Dubai police featured the suspects' pictures and personal information in an effort to locate the assailants.

According to Palestinian news agency Ma'an, Dubai police said Wednesday that they hold retinal scans of the suspected assassins, which they plan to publish through international police intelligence service Interpol.

Airport officials carried out routine retinal scans on 11 suspects sought by Dubai when they entered the country in the days before the hit. An unnamed Dubai official said on Thursday that the investigation has now widened, with police seeking a further seven members of the assassination team - making 18 in all.

Dubai police also identified Austria as the "command center" for the assassins, after mobile phone data showed at least seven numbers originating there, the Guardian reported.

Dubai police speculated members of the group communicated using "encrypted" messages, and that contact was maintained via several Austrian mobile phone Sim cards.

Austria has confirmed its officials are investigating the claims.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1150754.html

Lets face it, it was Mossad.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|5429|Canberra, AUS
while i commend feos's caution mossad is the overwhelming favourite right now.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|5518|d

Spark wrote:

while i commend feos's caution mossad is the overwhelming favourite right now.
That's the thing, even if it is. No one will do shit. No one can do shit.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,609|5375|London, England
All this "anger" about false UK passports and shit is so annoying. The politicians should stop acting all melodramatic for the public and wasting time/money over all this shit. I'd be more content with them just saying the truth, they don't give a shit and they never will and just get on with whatever they were doing before. It's all the useless bullshit that goes on at the international level that's really tiresome.

Like the recent 'Iraq inquiry' that interviewed everyone including Tony Blair, what the fuck is the point of this shit? In a time or recession and financial crisis you don't fucking waste money on shit that will never ever change anything and is there for no reason. These people do this shit so that the media have something to talk about, and so they have something to do themselves. All totally pointless.

Most of the time you really do think that shit happens just so the media have something to talk about, because nothing ever actually changes or happens.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

First: Your presumption that he couldn't get a fair trial in an Israeli court is interesting. Could an Israeli get a fair trial in a Palestinian court? I bet you'd say yes.

Second: I never said it was OK to go and kill someone on someone else's territory. I was pointing out the "summary execution" term used, which alludes to a lack of a trial, not the right or wrongness of doing it in another country. That's a diplomatic issue, tbh. And if you think the Israelis are the only country that engages in that kind of stuff, you're living in fantasy land. Every country does it...the Israelis just don't really care if people find out they did.
1. I dunno if an Israeli could get a fair trial in a Palestinian court. Depends what he was on trial for, but possibly. But since their whole national infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, I doubt they even have a fully functioning court system. And so what anyway? You brought up the vague possibility - not mentioned in any reports or other material on the topic - that he might have got a trial of some kind. Israel are supposed to be a damn beacon of democracy in the ME and they do all this stuff, it beggars belief. But as you point out there's no way of knowing even IF he got any kind of trial in Israel, which I strongly doubt in the first place, and since it's just conjecture it's pretty much irrelevant anyway, and even if he DID get tried in absentia and got a death sentence it is still wrong to assassinate someone, never mind all the issues of sovereignity etc. Finally, do you think a trial in absentia is ever a fair trial? If the accused isn't given the chance to defend himself, and maybe no-one does defend him, I'd say no. So no, this wouldn't be a fair trial.
Personally, I abhor trials in absentia. But Euros don't seem to have issues with them, apparently.

ruisleipa wrote:

2. 'Every country does it' That is just bollocks mate, sorry. Like Cybarg's previous assertion that 'every' country has a massive list of HR abuses they've committed in the past. Fact is there is at least one country which has been proven to commit assassinations time and again: Israel. If you know of any more go ahead and list 'em, but it doesn't make it right anyway, even if there were two, five or twenty countries doing it. I am 100% certain that at this point Finland doesn't engage in assassinations, so there's your theory blown out of the water straight off. It makes f-all difference if you call it summary execution or extra-judicial killing or whatever. You're just picking up on semantics and avoiding the real issue(s).
I'm not justifying it. I'm simply stating reality. It happens. All the time. By countries that you wouldn't think of in your wildest dreams--likely including Finland. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen--and there's 0% chance you can be 100% certain of anything.

I'm not picking up on semantics at all. Someone called it a "summary execution", with all the implications thereof. I'd say the one who's throwing around that term without having all the facts is the one avoiding the real issue, not me.

reuisleipa wrote:

oh, and if Israel doesn't care who knows why don't they admit it? Err...maybe because they're suposed to be a beacon of democracy and upholding Western values blah blah, etc etc....
It's kind of like their "ambiguity" regarding nukes. They don't admit to it, but they don't care if people are convinced they do it, either. Admitting to it would be stupid diplomatically. Having people believe that they do it but can't be proven to do it can be quite useful diplomatically...much like their ambiguous nuke position.

Again, not defending it. Just pointing out some pragmatic points.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|4977|Escea

Cybargs wrote:

Damn yo I just read the article. If it was Mossad, they really need to brush up on the not getting caught on camera's skills.
That sounds very unlike them. I mean, you'd think they'd know where the cameras were.

Either way the guy they topped deserved it.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

M.O.A.B wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Damn yo I just read the article. If it was Mossad, they really need to brush up on the not getting caught on camera's skills.
That sounds very unlike them. I mean, you'd think they'd know where the cameras were.

Either way the guy they topped deserved it.
I have to agree. Sounds remarkably amateurish to be Mossad. But certainly "professional" enough to make everyone automatically look at Israel and nobody else...while whoever did it--if it wasn't Israel--has the ally of time to get clean away.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
ruisleipa
Member
+149|4976|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

Personally, I abhor trials in absentia. But Euros don't seem to have issues with them, apparently.
eh?

FEOS wrote:

I'm not justifying it. I'm simply stating reality. It happens. All the time. By countries that you wouldn't think of in your wildest dreams--likely including Finland. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen--and there's 0% chance you can be 100% certain of anything.
well, I AM 100% sure Finland does NOT execute people overtly or covertly, like I am 100% certain 2+2=4. I dunno where you get your cynicism from but you're wrong plain and simple. Israel does, and America does (sorry and this isn't anti-Americanism, I'm stating provable facts rather than unprovable beliefs), and sure some other countries might do. But it's not as widespread as you make out. I would be absolyutely astounded if Luxembourg, or Sweden for example assassinated anyone. Unless you have some evidence for your assertion?

FEOS wrote:

I have to agree. Sounds remarkably amateurish to be Mossad.
It seems that every man and his dog is sure it was mossad - so much so that interpol have been asked to arrest their head:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/fe … ad-killing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8522595.stm

M.O.A.B wrote:

Either way the guy they topped deserved it.
Is that supposed to be some justification?

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