Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

If any of those factors had been what you had looked at, I would agree with your weighting system. However, it didn't.

The only real metric with any objectivity is raw numbers enrolled. It is also the only one that reflects any kind of quality from year to year, based on continued enrollment rates.

And I would argue that your assumption that weighting is important is myopic, as well. You are too focused on a single issue and are ignoring the larger context. Raw numbers of international students are a far greater metric that weighting. For example, how many four-year university students do you think there are in the PRC? Probably far more than in the US. How about India. Likely the same. Yet the US has far more international students than either of those countries...as do several other countries with far smaller populations (and thus university populations). Those two examples alone disprove the adequacy of your weighting schema.
Well, I figured that the education system of a First World country being better than that of Third World countries would go without saying, but yes, you are correct that raw numbers matter in that comparison.

However, they don't when comparing First World systems.

Finland could have the best education system in the world, and even if 100% of their students somehow were international, they'd still have fewer international students than America has.  Why?  Because their system is much smaller.

Because America is so much larger than any other First World country, we have a size advantage when looking at raw numbers.  To neglect that fact is just idiotic.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If any of those factors had been what you had looked at, I would agree with your weighting system. However, it didn't.

The only real metric with any objectivity is raw numbers enrolled. It is also the only one that reflects any kind of quality from year to year, based on continued enrollment rates.

And I would argue that your assumption that weighting is important is myopic, as well. You are too focused on a single issue and are ignoring the larger context. Raw numbers of international students are a far greater metric that weighting. For example, how many four-year university students do you think there are in the PRC? Probably far more than in the US. How about India. Likely the same. Yet the US has far more international students than either of those countries...as do several other countries with far smaller populations (and thus university populations). Those two examples alone disprove the adequacy of your weighting schema.
Well, I figured that the education system of a First World country being better than that of Third World countries would go without saying, but yes, you are correct that raw numbers matter in that comparison.

However, they don't when comparing First World systems.

Finland could have the best education system in the world, and even if 100% of their students somehow were international, they'd still have fewer international students than America has.  Why?  Because their system is much smaller.

Because America is so much larger than any other First World country, we have a size advantage when looking at raw numbers.  To neglect that fact is just idiotic.
Why are you still stuck on archaic terminology like First and Third World? The Cold War is over. India and China have some of the top universities in science and technology, particularly if you include Singapore and Hong Kong.

http://www.universityportal.net/2007/09 … ering.html

#12 in the world? From a "third world" country (by your definition)--Tsinghua University in China. Ahead of any university listed from mainland Europe. They're "first world"...right?

#36 in the world? From a "third world" country as well--Indian Institute of Technology. Guess which "first world" institution it beats out? University of Michigan. That's right. Big Blue. But that's OK, because the Blue and Maize tied with University of Peking--another "third world" university at #38...ahead of the "first world" Technical University of Munich.

Doesn't wash, Turq.

As far as your argument about quality not following quantity? Check this out:

The world's top 10 universities
Rank     Name                                                       Country          Score
1              Harvard University                                       US                 100
2             Yale University                                               US                 99,8
3             University of Cambridge                               UK                 99,5
4             University of Oxford                                     UK                 98,9
5             California Institute of Technology (Caltech)       US                 98,6
6             Imperial College London                               UK                 98,4
7             University College London (UCL)                       UK                 98,1
8             University of Chicago                                       US                 98,9
9             Massachussets Institute of Technology (MIT)   US                96,7
10             Columbia University                                       US                 96,3
The world's top 10 natural science universities
Rank     Name                                                            Country           Score
1             Massachussets Institute of Technology (MIT)       US                 100
2           University of California, Berkeley                    US                99,5
3             University of Cambridge                                    UK                98,3
4             Harvard University                                            US                96,1    
5             University of Oxford                                            UK                92,3    
6           Princeton University                                            US                91,1    
7             California Institute of Technology (Caltech)            US                90,7    
8             Stanford University                                            US                88,0    
9             University of Toronto                                         Canada            79,2    
10             University of Tokyo                                          Japan              77,2
So...it would appear that quantity of international students would reflect a quality of universities here, as well...from multiples sources.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6953

Whoa, CalTech up the street is number 5?  Who'd have thunk considering how small the University is.  And to think, that is my number 2 choice for my kids, where USC is my #1 choice.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina
FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Piss poor students with bad attitudes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Piss poor students with bad attitudes.
If that's all it is, then we should bring back child labor.  Put them to use.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Piss poor students with bad attitudes.
If that's all it is, then we should bring back child labor.  Put them to use.
Education is not valued by the vast majority of Americans and that gets transferred onto their kids. Too many people looking for the easy path in life.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Piss poor students with bad attitudes.
If that's all it is, then we should bring back child labor.  Put them to use.
Education is not valued by the vast majority of Americans and that gets transferred onto their kids. Too many people looking for the easy path in life.
Social Darwinism would fix that quickly.  The great thing about the market is that it can clear lives in addition to money.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

If that's all it is, then we should bring back child labor.  Put them to use.
Education is not valued by the vast majority of Americans and that gets transferred onto their kids. Too many people looking for the easy path in life.
Social Darwinism would fix that quickly.  The great thing about the market is that it can clear lives in addition to money.
It would if people such as yourself weren't so keen to artificially prop them up with protectionism and welfare
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Education is not valued by the vast majority of Americans and that gets transferred onto their kids. Too many people looking for the easy path in life.
Social Darwinism would fix that quickly.  The great thing about the market is that it can clear lives in addition to money.
It would if people such as yourself weren't so keen to artificially prop them up with protectionism and welfare
...which is exactly why I've changed my mind about all that.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Social Darwinism would fix that quickly.  The great thing about the market is that it can clear lives in addition to money.
It would if people such as yourself weren't so keen to artificially prop them up with protectionism and welfare
...which is exactly why I've changed my mind about all that.
Look, I'm not advocating people dying in the gutters from starvation but this country needs a serious wake up call. It won't happen though because the people will just run to their politicians and expect them to help them out. It's sad that so many have come to expect a handout
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6961|Canberra, AUS
Isn't there any kind of social stigma to such people? Like, at all?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Spark wrote:

Isn't there any kind of social stigma to such people? Like, at all?
To 'dolers' or whatever you call them? Not really, they act like it's a game and they're getting away with something.

My dad is PROUD that he's on social security and not working at 54 years of age. He hasn't worked in about 12 years. He feels that he's earned the easy life because he worked for a whopping 24 years

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-02-18 17:20:10)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


It would if people such as yourself weren't so keen to artificially prop them up with protectionism and welfare
...which is exactly why I've changed my mind about all that.
Look, I'm not advocating people dying in the gutters from starvation but this country needs a serious wake up call. It won't happen though because the people will just run to their politicians and expect them to help them out. It's sad that so many have come to expect a handout
I am...
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Because it is predominantly run by the government.

I didn't even have to use my EASY Button (c)

Just look at the difference between private and public schools. It's not even close.

Last edited by FEOS (2010-02-18 17:56:45)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Because it is predominantly run by the government.

I didn't even have to use my EASY Button (c)

Just look at the difference between private and public schools. It's not even close.
Why not privatize all colleges then?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS, I only have one question.

If all of that is true, then why is pre-collegiate education so shitty in a lot of America?
Because it is predominantly run by the government.

I didn't even have to use my EASY Button (c)

Just look at the difference between private and public schools. It's not even close.
Why not privatize all colleges then?
Most of them are at least partially privatized. Students do pay tuition, you know. The key is the government doesn't control the curriculum or standards in the universities like it does in the secondary and elementary schools (except for private schools, of course).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Because it is predominantly run by the government.

I didn't even have to use my EASY Button (c)

Just look at the difference between private and public schools. It's not even close.
Why not privatize all colleges then?
Most of them are at least partially privatized. Students do pay tuition, you know. The key is the government doesn't control the curriculum or standards in the universities like it does in the secondary and elementary schools (except for private schools, of course).
And since students already pay tuition, then surely these universities don't need tax money.  You could just save everyone the taxes and increase tuition somewhat.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-02-18 21:57:04)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Why not privatize all colleges then?
Most of them are at least partially privatized. Students do pay tuition, you know. The key is the government doesn't control the curriculum or standards in the universities like it does in the secondary and elementary schools (except for private schools, of course).
And since students already pay tuition, then surely these universities don't need tax money.  You could just save everyone the taxes and increase tuition somewhat.
Could do the same with elementary and secondary schools, as well. Then let the parents pay tuition for their kids just like they do for college.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Most of them are at least partially privatized. Students do pay tuition, you know. The key is the government doesn't control the curriculum or standards in the universities like it does in the secondary and elementary schools (except for private schools, of course).
And since students already pay tuition, then surely these universities don't need tax money.  You could just save everyone the taxes and increase tuition somewhat.
Could do the same with elementary and secondary schools, as well. Then let the parents pay tuition for their kids just like they do for college.
Works for me.  We also need to dump the billions we spend on endowments too.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


And since students already pay tuition, then surely these universities don't need tax money.  You could just save everyone the taxes and increase tuition somewhat.
Could do the same with elementary and secondary schools, as well. Then let the parents pay tuition for their kids just like they do for college.
Works for me.  We also need to dump the billions we spend on endowments too.
A lot of that money goes to useful R&D, so I'd be careful before I started throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6610|New Haven, CT

Ilocano wrote:

Whoa, CalTech up the street is number 5?  Who'd have thunk considering how small the University is.  And to think, that is my number 2 choice for my kids, where USC is my #1 choice.
Caltech is a terrible choice unless your kids are transcendent at mathematics or natural sciences.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Could do the same with elementary and secondary schools, as well. Then let the parents pay tuition for their kids just like they do for college.
Works for me.  We also need to dump the billions we spend on endowments too.
A lot of that money goes to useful R&D, so I'd be careful before I started throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
R&D can be handled by the market.  The government shouldn't be taking my tax money for that.  They can use whatever money they get from what I buy.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Works for me.  We also need to dump the billions we spend on endowments too.
A lot of that money goes to useful R&D, so I'd be careful before I started throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
R&D can be handled by the market.  The government shouldn't be taking my tax money for that.  They can use whatever money they get from what I buy.
The government needs to do its own R&D as well. R&D is a market in and of itself and the government is a consumer of that market. There isn't just one all-encompassing market. You're being purposefully obtuse.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:


A lot of that money goes to useful R&D, so I'd be careful before I started throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
R&D can be handled by the market.  The government shouldn't be taking my tax money for that.  They can use whatever money they get from what I buy.
The government needs to do its own R&D as well. R&D is a market in and of itself and the government is a consumer of that market. There isn't just one all-encompassing market. You're being purposefully obtuse.
I can't think of anything the government would need R&D for that the market couldn't do first.  Why experiment with tax dollars?  Don't you want to use tax money for only "sure things?"

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