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The CIA...lying?
Never.
Never.
Isnt it part of the CIA's function that they have to lie to the public?
Well it wouldn't be secret if they told everybody now would it?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
You would think the CIA agents would be more proficient in spanish. They only knew a few key words. My spanglish is better than that.
Based on the video, the CIA agents made the right call but the Peruvian military messed up, now the CIA has to clean some one elses mess.
Based on the video, the CIA agents made the right call but the Peruvian military messed up, now the CIA has to clean some one elses mess.
I dont really see this as being the CIA's fault, the killings that is. However, holding evidence like that for 9 years is mind boggling
The Bowers had no flight plan while crossing borders, big problem. Otherwise the Peruvians would have known who the guy flying at 4500 feet was. Language barrier played a factor, the CIA couldn't communicate their intentions well enough, unable to say they wanted to follow the aircraft longer. At one point they said "dont go to phase 3" and the Peruvian replies "phase 3, phase 3" which i guess means takedown. Afterward, they relay that the aircraft that they're following is in contact with the local tower, and the Peruvian pilot goes ahead and shoots it down anyway.
Sure, they're liable, but responsible for a pilot in another chain of command taking initiative? No way.
The Bowers had no flight plan while crossing borders, big problem. Otherwise the Peruvians would have known who the guy flying at 4500 feet was. Language barrier played a factor, the CIA couldn't communicate their intentions well enough, unable to say they wanted to follow the aircraft longer. At one point they said "dont go to phase 3" and the Peruvian replies "phase 3, phase 3" which i guess means takedown. Afterward, they relay that the aircraft that they're following is in contact with the local tower, and the Peruvian pilot goes ahead and shoots it down anyway.
Sure, they're liable, but responsible for a pilot in another chain of command taking initiative? No way.
Thats the thing about giving low-level operatives the authority to kill people they think could be criminals, often they fuck up.
And since when were suspected drug-smugglers liable to summary execution? Is smuggling drugs a capital offence in Peru?
The CIA shouldn't be able to just kill whoever they like, whether its in Peru, Afghanistan, Iraqn Pakistan or anywhere else.
Why after this kind of thing and the WMD fiasco anyone takes the CIA seriously is beyond me.
And since when were suspected drug-smugglers liable to summary execution? Is smuggling drugs a capital offence in Peru?
The CIA shouldn't be able to just kill whoever they like, whether its in Peru, Afghanistan, Iraqn Pakistan or anywhere else.
Why after this kind of thing and the WMD fiasco anyone takes the CIA seriously is beyond me.
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Because they're well armed and know where you live?Dilbert_X wrote:
Thats the thing about giving low-level operatives the authority to kill people they think could be criminals, often they fuck up.
And since when were suspected drug-smugglers liable to summary execution? Is smuggling drugs a capital offence in Peru?
The CIA shouldn't be able to just kill whoever they like, whether its in Peru, Afghanistan, Iraqn Pakistan or anywhere else.
Why after this kind of thing and the WMD fiasco anyone takes the CIA seriously is beyond me.
The CIA wasn't killing anyone, wasn't giving the orders, wasn't clearing anyone to kill anyone. That was the Peruvians' call 100%.Dilbert_X wrote:
Thats the thing about giving low-level operatives the authority to kill people they think could be criminals, often they fuck up.
And since when were suspected drug-smugglers liable to summary execution? Is smuggling drugs a capital offence in Peru?
The CIA shouldn't be able to just kill whoever they like, whether its in Peru, Afghanistan, Iraqn Pakistan or anywhere else.
Why after this kind of thing and the WMD fiasco anyone takes the CIA seriously is beyond me.
If you read the ABC news article, it's clear that the prime screw up was not getting close enough to get the tail number at the beginning. That was an ROE requirement that they didn't follow because they wanted to stay covert. There were several other opportunities to stop the events from occurring as they progressed, but not knowing what level of authority the CIA crew had to call "knock it off" during those engagements, it's hard to say if they would've been able to.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Whatever, the CIA was involved in a program, involving the Peruvians, to shoot down suspected drug smugglers.
I very much doubt the Peruvians would really have given a toss about drugs being smuggled through their country without the US raising a stink in the first place.
But the question still stands, what right does anyone have to shoot down a civil aircraft even if the occupants are suspected of a non-capital crime?
Do Police officers shoot people in the street because they think they could have been shoplifting?
I very much doubt the Peruvians would really have given a toss about drugs being smuggled through their country without the US raising a stink in the first place.
But the question still stands, what right does anyone have to shoot down a civil aircraft even if the occupants are suspected of a non-capital crime?
Do Police officers shoot people in the street because they think they could have been shoplifting?
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The countries involved wouldn't have the US helping them if it wasn't in their interest to do so. The income from the drug running funds revolutionary organizations in their countries (FARC, Shining Path, etc). Cutting off the drugs=cutting off the funds to the revolutionaries.Dilbert_X wrote:
Whatever, the CIA was involved in a program, involving the Peruvians, to shoot down suspected drug smugglers.
I very much doubt the Peruvians would really have given a toss about drugs being smuggled through their country without the US raising a stink in the first place.
Not saying the CIA isn't at fault. You missed that part. They clearly violated the ROE by not checking the tail number of the plane. But the Peruvian pilot and controllers had the final say in use of lethal force, not the CIA.
Ask the Peruvians.Dilbert_X wrote:
But the question still stands, what right does anyone have to shoot down a civil aircraft even if the occupants are suspected of a non-capital crime?
Suspecting someone of shoplifting is a far cry from someone flying a drug-smuggling profile, Dilbert. Seriously. That's just absolutely ridiculous. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the logical leap is so extraordinary as to be laughable.Dilbert_X wrote:
Do Police officers shoot people in the street because they think they could have been shoplifting?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The point is they are both non-capital crimes.
Do Police officers just open up on passing cars because they think they might have drugs in the boot which could be funding Mexican gangsters?
Lets ask them why they were involved in shooting down civilian aircraft.
Do Police officers just open up on passing cars because they think they might have drugs in the boot which could be funding Mexican gangsters?
The CIA, and by extension the US govt were involved.Ask the Peruvians.
Lets ask them why they were involved in shooting down civilian aircraft.
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They are both non-capital crimes in the US and UK. They are hardly in the same category in the both of those countries though. And drug smuggling is certainly a capital crime in many countries.Dilbert_X wrote:
The point is they are both non-capital crimes.
Do Police officers just open up on passing cars because they think they might have drugs in the boot which could be funding Mexican gangsters?
It's already out there: so long as they followed strict ROE, shooting down drug running aircraft was authorized.Dilbert_X wrote:
The CIA, and by extension the US govt were involved.Ask the Peruvians.
Lets ask them why they were involved in shooting down civilian aircraft.
As for the Peruvians (and others in that region), they have a completely different paradigm. They are dropping bombs--on their own land--almost every single day in their battles against revolutionaries in their own borders. That includes the occasional air-to-air mission, as well. It's not nearly as out of the ordinary for them as it is for us.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
By whom?It's already out there: so long as they followed strict ROE, shooting down drug running aircraft was authorized.
US officials are paid to travel abroad and be involved in killing foreign nationals accused of minor crimes?
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By US and Peruvian government agreement.Dilbert_X wrote:
By whom?It's already out there: so long as they followed strict ROE, shooting down drug running aircraft was authorized.
US officials are paid to travel abroad and be involved in killing foreign nationals accused of minor crimes?
And it's only a minor crime to you.
And the part you're missing is that the plane entered Peruvian airspace from Brazilian airspace, didn't respond to radio calls, and (to the crews involved) apparently didn't have a flight plan filed. To Peru, that's an air sovereignty issue, as well. Every country in the world can legitimately shoot down a plane that violates their airspace and doesn't respond to hails. Of course, some have more stringent ROE than others.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
They weren't at war, it was a civilian light aircraft, hardly a major threat.
I'd still like to know what the US govt sent the CIA to Peru for exactly, and why they were involved in shooting down civil aircraft - they called up the strike in the first place.
I'd still like to know what the US govt sent the CIA to Peru for exactly, and why they were involved in shooting down civil aircraft - they called up the strike in the first place.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-02-08 04:02:49)
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You need to read a bit about relations in that region...particularly in the Peru-Colombia-Brazil area.Dilbert_X wrote:
They weren't at war, it was a civilian light aircraft, hardly a major threat.
No, they didn't. They notified the Peruvian AF of an aircraft that initially fit a suspicious profile. Then they violated ROE by not getting close enough to check the tail number...which should have correlated to a flight plan that Iquitos said they had.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'd still like to know what the US govt sent the CIA to Peru for exactly, and why they were involved in shooting down civil aircraft - they called up the strike in the first place.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
So thats not calling it up?Before the deadly attack, the CIA aircraft came up behind the Bowers's plane, piloted by Kevin Donaldson. Believing it was an aircraft used for drug trafficking, the CIA alerted the Peruvian Air Force, which scrambled a fighter jet.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
thisWinston_Churchill wrote:
Isnt it part of the CIA's function that they have to lie to the public?
Not really. It's saying there is a possible drug smuggler in their area, and that they might want to look into it.Dilbert_X wrote:
So thats not calling it up?Before the deadly attack, the CIA aircraft came up behind the Bowers's plane, piloted by Kevin Donaldson. Believing it was an aircraft used for drug trafficking, the CIA alerted the Peruvian Air Force, which scrambled a fighter jet.
Since when has there ever been justice from organisations like the CIA when they do their thing
"calling up the strike" has a specific connotation--that of having some sort of positive control--and you know it.Dilbert_X wrote:
So thats not calling it up?Before the deadly attack, the CIA aircraft came up behind the Bowers's plane, piloted by Kevin Donaldson. Believing it was an aircraft used for drug trafficking, the CIA alerted the Peruvian Air Force, which scrambled a fighter jet.
Acting as an intel tipper to the Peruvian AF is NOT "calling up the strike". There is a very distinct difference.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
They would have know the Peruvian AF were going to shoot it down though.
Seems Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R.-Mich is on my side"The [intelligence] community's performance in terms of accountability has been unacceptable. These were Americans that were killed with the help of their government"
'The CIA and the Peruvian Air Force were working in the same area, trying to interdict the drug smugglers. Starting in 1995, they'd operated a joint program to intercept drug planes, shooting them down if necessary.'
Seems simple enough, they knew they would be shot down.
Seems Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R.-Mich is on my side"The [intelligence] community's performance in terms of accountability has been unacceptable. These were Americans that were killed with the help of their government"
'The CIA and the Peruvian Air Force were working in the same area, trying to interdict the drug smugglers. Starting in 1995, they'd operated a joint program to intercept drug planes, shooting them down if necessary.'
Seems simple enough, they knew they would be shot down.
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The certainly knew that was a possibility, as it was a possibility on every intercept.Dilbert_X wrote:
They would have know the Peruvian AF were going to shoot it down though.
Again, they clearly violated ROE by not checking the tail number of the plane. Nobody is arguing that the CIA screwed up in this instance.
Political grandstanding, as they were constituents of his. Hyperbole is not uncommon.Dilbert_X wrote:
Seems Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R.-Mich is on my side"The [intelligence] community's performance in terms of accountability has been unacceptable. These were Americans that were killed with the help of their government"
The problem is with the ROE violation and the coverup that followed, not the program itself.
Yes. That's what "interdict" means. However, there are multiple methods of doing that. Note the "if necessary". The planes could also be forced to land, which happened quite often--more often than shoot downs--as well.Dilbert_X wrote:
'The CIA and the Peruvian Air Force were working in the same area, trying to interdict the drug smugglers. Starting in 1995, they'd operated a joint program to intercept drug planes, shooting them down if necessary.'
Seems simple enough, they knew they would be shot down.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I'd say the CIA being involved in a program to summarily execute suspected criminals on foreign soil is the bigger issue here.The problem is with the ROE violation and the coverup that followed, not the program itself.
That the only reason we know about it is because they fucked up and killed some innocent Americans is poor.
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