BF2S Forums Standing up for my principles.

This song doesn't ever tell the listener that the world is or isn't a certain way.  It simply asks them to imagine a few scenarios.  If anything, it's simply a plea for people to be more open-minded.  I don't really feel that it's anything to be upset by, but then again, I wasn't raised in a strictly religious household.

AussieReaper wrote:

I'd tell them to grow up.

Whom are you referring to?

A song isn't going to hurt your child. And maybe some education about the Beatles and John Lennon wouldn't go astray either.

Yes, a song is just a song.  You want me to force my child to sing a song that she doesn't agree with?

What education are you referring to?  The fact that he was not a communist.  That is true, but his intention with the song was to influence others.  I don't judge things at first glance, hours of research have gone into knowing as much about the song as possible. 

Sounds like you've packed your daughter in cotton wool and she's come running to you because Imagine has somehow offender her.

Honestly, is this song going to destroy her belief in Christianity? If so, I would say it wasn't a very strong belief anyway.

I don't insulate them from the world.

LividBovine wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

I'd tell them to grow up.

Whom are you referring to?

Well you did ask "My question is where do you take a stand.  If your daughter or son came home and showed you that they were learning this song, what would your response be?  Why?"

My response would be to tell them to grow up.

LividBovine wrote:

A song isn't going to hurt your child. And maybe some education about the Beatles and John Lennon wouldn't go astray either.

Yes, a song is just a song.  You want me to force my child to sing a song that she doesn't agree with?

Of course you should not force your child to sing a song she doesn't agree with. But you should encourage her to understand that she can sing without fear of hell fire. Without fear of discrimination. And without accepting the Devil into her world.

Where's this paranoia coming from?

LividBovine wrote:

What education are you referring to?  The fact that he was not a communist.  That is true, but his intention with the song was to influence others.

Communist, what? What in the world does this have to do with Communism? His song was to influence others to get along and be happy. It's in the lyrics. The world as one. Living life in peace.

Is that where your objection to the song is coming from? World peace is a terrible ideal?

Maybe you could explain to your daughter the song's influence with civil rights movements, the background of the Vietnam war.

Or compare it to another John Lennon solo, "Give Peace a Chance" and see how evil that song is...

LividBovine wrote:

I don't judge things at first glance, hours of research have gone into knowing as much about the song as possible.

Hours of research, are you serious? By who, you or your daughter. I doubt it's the latter. And my suggestion to you is that you as a parent should help her make an informed decision. And give her a background of the man himself. See if she still has objections after reading about his stance towards conscription, war and human rights. Good Christian values.

Be warned though, the Beatles did say they were bigger than Jesus...

LividBovine wrote:

Sounds like you've packed your daughter in cotton wool and she's come running to you because Imagine has somehow offender her.

Honestly, is this song going to destroy her belief in Christianity? If so, I would say it wasn't a very strong belief anyway.

I don't insulate them from the world.

One day she'll turn on the radio and hear "The Devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a soul to steal. He was in a bind 'cos he was way behind - he was willin' to make a deal."

What exactly do you plan on doing when that happens? Help guide her into the bomb shelter? If her reaction to Imagine is anything to go by, that's what you'll be doing.

Last edited by AussieReaper (2010-01-18 00:47:44)

Dilbert_X wrote:

What is your daughters concern exactly?
Or is it more her concern that you'll be concerned?

'Imagine' Is about as tame as it can get, if your daughter can't deal with it she's not had a very broad education.

Apart from the 'no religion' bit which part do you have an issue with?
From my perspective it seems pretty well ideal, all the values religions purport to put forward, without the BS of organised religious dogma and pedos in dresses, don't see what your problem is TBH.

Her concern, not mine.  She told me what bothered her about it.  I didn't tell her what to think about it, just asked questions on what she thought about it when she brought it up.

I have a problem with the no Heaven and Hell, no religion, and the live for today aspects.  She mainly had an issue with the no Heaven and Hell aspect.

I honestly wouldn't think a non-believer would understand.  Would you be OK with your child singing a song about God in their school?  Would you say something to the school?

AussieReaper wrote:

Well you did ask "My question is where do you take a stand.  If your daughter or son came home and showed you that they were learning this song, what would your response be?  Why?"

My response would be to tell them to grow up.

You have any kids?

Aussiereaper wrote:

Of course you should not force your child to sing a song she doesn't agree with. But you should encourage her to understand that she can sing without fear of hell fire. Without fear of discrimination. And without accepting the Devil into her world.

Where's this paranoia coming from?

No paranoia here, just principles about denouncing Heaven and Hell and telling kids to live for today.

Aussiereaper wrote:

Communist, what? What in the world does this have to do with Communism? His song was to influence others to get along and be happy. It's in the lyrics. The world as one. Living life in peace.

You are ignoring most of the rest of the song why?

Last edited by LividBovine (2010-01-18 01:15:22)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Maybe it would be worth discussing the posititve aspects of having no religion with her, as well as the negatives.

Would I be bothered about a child singing about god? Not really, they can make up their own minds based on the available information. Unless they were ramming religious dogma down their throat - in which case I'd find another school.
I don't see why you are bothered TBH, unless you're scared she's going to bend from the path you've chosen for her.

See my awesome thread - http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 5#p2793495

Saw the thread, looks like I even posted in it.

Not worried about her bending, to much anyways.  Kids are impressionable, and yes, as a parent I am damn sure going to make sure my child understands what I believe and why.  I will never ask them to blindly follow anything though.

This is not meant as a slam, or even to minimize your comments much.  If you have not had children and felt the responsibility of raising them the best you know how, you are at a disadvantage.  If you are a non-believer in any religion you will most certainly pass that along to your children, sometimes knowingly, sometimes not so much.

I don't have a problem with Darwinism.  I am not sure how God created the earth.  The science isn't settled yet.

Last edited by LividBovine (2010-01-18 01:30:09)

ruisleipa wrote:

Your kid needs to realise that one of the fundamental tenets of any religion should be the acceptance of other people's beliefs.

Who's a classic leading example? The Dalai Lama?

Chou wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Your kid needs to realise that one of the fundamental tenets of any religion should be the acceptance of other people's beliefs.

Who's a classic leading example? The Dalai Lama?

see that word in bold?

ruisleipa wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

I am not asking for parenting advice from a bunch of internet jockeys here.  Get real people.  The idea that they are taking religous songs out of school, but keeping ones like this is a big problem if you don't see it.  I have no problem with others view points, I am one of the first to defend anyones right to express their views.  I am looking for balance here.

Remember, I did not pull my daughter out of the concert.  I did not make the school pull the song from the concert.  I have told her to just stand there for that song if she didn't want to sing it.

Alright mate calm down. Just trying to offer my opinion, which is what you asked for. If you don't want advice from 'internet jockeys' then don't feckin post here tbh.

How terribly nice of you to "not make the school pull the song from the concert". Well done. :slow handclap:

As for your question "If your daughter or son came home and showed you that they were learning this song, what would your response be?  Why?" I think I pretty much answered it, I'd say it's a good song, not the best he's written, but I can see why you'd want to sing it with kids cos it's got a nice melody and is easy to sing and whatnot, so knock yourself out kiddo, and maybe next time with any luck they'll get you to sing Slayer.

ICwatUdidthr.

Longbow wrote:

lol christians, why I'm not amazed?

What's your point?

Pubic wrote:

Are there going to be any religous songs sung at the concert?

No.  There was no Christmas concert either.  No holiday concert at all this year.

Last edited by LividBovine (2010-01-18 03:13:48)

In this particular case I would have explained to my kids what the song is really about ... and that if they believe in God that this song is far from a threat to their believes ...

It's a tribute to an ideal world without war because with no religion, no countries and no material possesions there would be nothing left to fight wars over ... quite simple ...

LividBovine wrote:

You have any kids?

No.

LividBovine wrote:

No paranoia here, just principles about denouncing Heaven and Hell and telling kids to live for today.

What's wrong with telling kids to live for today? And the song is titled Imagine for a reason. It isn't saying through away your religion. But consider, "imagine" what the world would be like without it.

Maybe your child doesn't know about the terrible things that have been done in the name of religion, like the Crusades?

LividBovine wrote:

You are ignoring most of the rest of the song why?

I'll make it easy for you. If you want to know what the song is about, look at the last sentence of each verse. Here:


Living for today

Living life in peace

And the world will be as one

Sharing all the world

And the world will live as one


That is the message of the song. And it is incredible that you cannot see this after an hour of research... What is so horrible about this message? That you have to take religion out of the equation? If that's the case then you're extremely naive to think religion is a necessity to morality.