BF2S Forums Past war offers Afghanistan lessons.

Turquoise wrote:

What we did to the Philippines is one of the darker periods of our history.  For all practical purposes, I would agree that it was genocide.  You could pretty much say the same about what we did to many Native American tribes.

I guess the only comfort I can take in this is that we at least have the balls to admit to the darker things we've done, rather than deny them like Turkey does (the Armenian genocide) or completely ignore them like Japan (who refuses to teach its schoolchildren about things like the Rape of Nanking).

The thing is, countries like Turkey and Japan don't always have people who go on about how they're the utmost moral superpower of the world and all that shit. It's not the actual truth which pisses people off about the US, it's the sheer hypocrisy of it all of how you go about it. Anyone that is critical of the US in certain aspects (that's not a crazy islamofascist) will be able to explain that to you.

You'll admit to having committed genocide against the natives, and shit like the Philippines, yet still assert a moral superiority or just an overall superiority over everyone else. All that Freedom, Liberty bullshit. All the "God bless America" bullshit. All of that shit. You even make it out, so that admitting all the bad shit in the past, is also one of those things that some how make you better than everyone else. It's right there, and you don't even realise it.

FEOS wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ask the average Turk about the Armenian genocide.  You'll get an interesting response most likely.

Ask a Japanese student about the Rape of Nanking and you'll probably get a puzzled look.

yeah yeah my point was that it's not like the US in general sayd 'we fucked up at time X, Y and Z' - so I changed your statement to admit to SOME of the darker things we've done. A minority of things tbh. But some.

And you're basing this opinion off of what? How much time have you spent in a US history class in the US?

you can study american history all over the world

Mekstizzle wrote:

The thing is, countries like Turkey and Japan don't always have people who go on about how they're the utmost moral superpower of the world and all that shit. It's not the actual truth which pisses people off about the US, it's the sheer hypocrisy of it all of how you go about it. Anyone that is critical of the US in certain aspects (that's not a crazy islamofascist) will be able to explain that to you.

You'll admit to having committed genocide against the natives, and shit like the Philippines, yet still assert a moral superiority or just an overall superiority over everyone else. All that Freedom, Liberty bullshit. All the "God bless America" bullshit. All of that shit. You even make it out, so that admitting all the bad shit in the past, is also one of those things that some how make you better than everyone else. It's right there, and you don't even realise it.

Point taken.  I would agree that a lot of Americans foolishly rant with patriotism.  However, from what I've seen from many other countries, we're actually less nationalist on average.  The problem is that our patriotic types are the loudest and most persistent (many of whom are also in positions of power).

Let me give an example.  India seems to be notoriously nationalist.  You can see this with many instances throughout recent history.  For example, Ben Kingsley got a lot of shit from Indian press about playing Gandhi until they realized he was actually half-Indian.  They were so fired up about a British citizen playing Gandhi that they didn't research Kingsley's background before criticizing him.  Sania Mirza got death threats from a lot of Indians just because she put her bare feet up on a desk facing an Indian flag.  Sure, that might be a sign of disrespect, but clearly one of India's best tennis players wouldn't intentionally disrespect the country she proudly represents.

Any culture is capable of doing stupidly nationalist things, but I don't think it's accurate to say that America is the most patriotic or nationalist country.  We seem to have an almost equal amount of self-criticism as patriotism -- which is quite unlike a lot of other countries.

Generally speaking, the most nationalist countries are the ones with the least education, because the less you know about your own country, the more likely you'll be proud of it.

Mek, I know you're used to seeing certain people here claim we're the best country in the world.  I see it all the time in real life too.  But what you probably don't see as much are the people who realize we aren't the best country in the First World.

There's a certain paradox involved here.  The more enlightened a society is, the more it is self-critical.  This creates the ironic position of realizing your country isn't so great while having people in it that are at least wiser because of this realization.  So no...  I'm not saying we're the best for being self-critical...  I'm merely saying we're more perceptive for it.

Turquoise wrote:

Generally speaking, the most nationalist countries are the ones with the least education, because the less you know about your own country, the more likely you'll be blindly proud of it.

fixed.

I'm well aware of my country's shortfalls in many areas. But I'm still proud of it, on the balance. There's far more good than bad.

I think most people would see that in their country's history.

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Generally speaking, the most nationalist countries are the ones with the least education, because the less you know about your own country, the more likely you'll be blindly proud of it.

fixed.

I'm well aware of my country's shortfalls in many areas. But I'm still proud of it, on the balance. There's far more good than bad.

I think most people would see that in their country's history.

Well, I will admit that we're one of the better countries in the world, but I don't think we're the best overall.

An educated person should be able to see that there isn't much to be proud of in a lot of countries actually.  Most of Africa is a shithole, for example.  Few countries on that continent can boast much to be proud of when compared to the rest of the world.

Pride in and of itself should be relative to your surroundings and standing in the world.

I wasn't saying we were the best overall, but I don't think there's any better out there.

I would argue that your view of Africa is uninformed. How much do you really know about a given African country's history as compared to your depth of knowledge of say, the US or UK (or another European country)? Probably not much at all. You can't judge the entirety of the "goodness" of a country by what it is right now. If we did that, hardly any country would be doing very well at all.

It's all perspective, Turq.

FEOS wrote:

I wasn't saying we were the best overall, but I don't think there's any better out there.

I would argue that your view of Africa is uninformed. How much do you really know about a given African country's history as compared to your depth of knowledge of say, the US or UK (or another European country)? Probably not much at all. You can't judge the entirety of the "goodness" of a country by what it is right now. If we did that, hardly any country would be doing very well at all.

It's all perspective, Turq.

What matters more than the present and future?  All the empires of the past only have relevance in history.  We can learn from past mistakes made in history, but pride in one's past is nothing more than nostalgia, once it goes past a certain point.

For example, what relevance do the achievements of the Mali Kingdom have for modern day Mali?  I don't see any.

But really, I do appreciate the fact that you assume I know nothing about Africa.

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I wasn't saying we were the best overall, but I don't think there's any better out there.

I would argue that your view of Africa is uninformed. How much do you really know about a given African country's history as compared to your depth of knowledge of say, the US or UK (or another European country)? Probably not much at all. You can't judge the entirety of the "goodness" of a country by what it is right now. If we did that, hardly any country would be doing very well at all.

It's all perspective, Turq.

What matters more than the present and future?  All the empires of the past only have relevance in history.  We can learn from past mistakes made in history, but pride in one's past is nothing more than nostalgia, once it goes past a certain point.

For example, what relevance do the achievements of the Mali Kingdom have for modern day Mali?  I don't see any.

Well, since we're talking about the Philippines and Native Americans, I think it was a safe assumption on my part that history was playing a part in the discussion. Was that a flawed assumption? Were we talking about modern day Philippines and Native Americans?

Pride in one's country/nationality is based on history and current affairs. What's that saying about ignoring history?

Turquoise wrote:

But really, I do appreciate the fact that you assume I know nothing about Africa.

I didn't assume you know nothing about Africa. Read what I actually wrote:

FEOS wrote:

How much do you really know about a given African country's history as compared to your depth of knowledge of say, the US or UK (or another European country)? Probably not much at all.

Notice the bold text. Now where did I say you "know nothing about Africa"?

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Well, since we're talking about the Philippines and Native Americans, I think it was a safe assumption on my part that history was playing a part in the discussion. Was that a flawed assumption? Were we talking about modern day Philippines and Native Americans?

Pride in one's country/nationality is based on history and current affairs. What's that saying about ignoring history?

Well, I guess we need to define what is relevant to current affairs.  Tell me something that a sub-Saharan African country (other than South Africa) has done in the last century that merits significant pride when compared to the achievements of the last century of various other countries throughout the world?  I realize this is an opinionated question, but I'd like to hear an example.

Djibouti is a key player in anti-terrorism and anti-piracy. Don't get more "current affairs" than that.

Kenya is probably second only to South Africa in terms of economic and military power in sub-saharan Africa.

Certainly not saying it's all puppies and unicorns, but there's nuggets of goodness, if you're willing to look for them instead of just writing it off as a "shithole".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8448930.stm

Looks like the majority of Afghan's are optimistic.

BBC wrote:

Of more than 1,500 Afghans questioned, 70% said they believed Afghanistan was going in the right direction - a big jump from 40% a year ago.

Of those questioned, 68% now back the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, compared with 63% a year ago.

For Nato troops, including UK forces, support has risen from 59% to 62%.

The survey was conducted in all of the country's 34 provinces in December 2009.

In 2009 only 51% of those surveyed had expected improvement and 13% thought conditions would deteriorate.

But in the latest survey 71% said they were optimistic about the situation in 12 months' time, compared with 5% who said it would be worse.

Last edited by M.O.A.B (2010-01-11 06:13:08)