Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Spending money on things I should not spend money on in the first place does not save me money.
...even if it decreases the overall amount you pay in taxes?...

For example, you wouldn't consider it a net benefit to yourself, if we set up a functional rehab system that decreased prison spending overall and led to lower taxes?
You seem to be forgetting that if drugs were legal, no one would be going to prison for doing drugs....So actually prisons would be less crowded.

Now, having said that, there will be room in prison for people who commit crimes BECAUSE they are on drugs....but then again, they deserve to be in prison for punishment for their crimes don't they?,  leave rehab for charities, friends and family to pay for. NOT those of use that have nothing to do with someone elses drug problem and irresponsibility.
So, you have no interest in preventing crimes from occurring due to addiction.  You'd rather just wait until the crimes occur.

Personally, I'd rather put the resources out there for addicts to use so that they are much less likely to reach the level of desperation that leads to crime.

Inevitably, a certain proportion of drug users will become addicted and will ruin their lives from drugs -- regardless of their legality.  Granted, legalization will make it easier to obtain pot, so there is the possibility of more pot users then.

If we assume the proportion of addicts among users remains the same, that means more people will become addicted to pot than before.  This requires more rehab resources.

So, many who become addicted will do desperate things for their fix.  I think it's better to help these people out before they do something fucked up, rather than wait until they end up in jail.

You wanna know why, lowing?  Because it protects people that aren't addicts.  You're so worried about paying for the costs of other people's stupidity, but what's worse?  Paying a small amount for rehabs?  Or getting robbed or attacked by an addict?

I'd much rather do the former than suffer the latter -- if not for myself, then for others.   Maybe you think you're capable of fending off any attacks by addicts, but more often than not, desperate people go for easy targets -- like children and the elderly.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-04-17 11:54:56)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...even if it decreases the overall amount you pay in taxes?...

For example, you wouldn't consider it a net benefit to yourself, if we set up a functional rehab system that decreased prison spending overall and led to lower taxes?
You seem to be forgetting that if drugs were legal, no one would be going to prison for doing drugs....So actually prisons would be less crowded.

Now, having said that, there will be room in prison for people who commit crimes BECAUSE they are on drugs....but then again, they deserve to be in prison for punishment for their crimes don't they?,  leave rehab for charities, friends and family to pay for. NOT those of use that have nothing to do with someone elses drug problem and irresponsibility.
So, you have no interest in preventing crimes from occurring due to addiction.  You'd rather just wait until the crimes occur.

Personally, I'd rather put the resources out there for addicts to use so that they are much less likely to reach the level of desperation that leads to crime.

Inevitably, a certain proportion of drug users will become addicted and will ruin their lives from drugs -- regardless of their legality.  Granted, legalization will make it easier to obtain pot, so there is the possibility of more pot users then.

If we assume the proportion of addicts among users remains the same, that means more people will become addicted to pot than before.  This requires more rehab resources.

So, many who become addicted will do desperate things for their fix.  I think it's better to help these people out before they do something fucked up, rather than wait until they end up in jail.

You wanna know why, lowing?  Because it protects people that aren't addicts.  You're so worried about paying for the costs of other people's stupidity, but what's worse?  Paying a small amount for rehabs?  Or getting robbed or attacked by an addict?

I'd much rather do the former than suffer the latter -- if not for myself, then for others.   Maybe you think you're capable of fending off any attacks by addicts, but more often than not, desperate people go for easy targets -- like children and the elderly.
We will never agree turquoise, you feel the need to succumb to extortion, pay for my addictions or I might hurt you. I however will continue to lean toward holding people accountable for their actions without fear of what they might do because of it. I will continue to support the notion that the drug users and addicts will suffer the consequences for their decisions and not me.

I have no desire to help people out that make an informed and conscience decision to pursue drug abuse. Or do you not think the word is out on drug abuse yet?

This is why I choose to support legalizing drugs, I do not care. Anyone that chooses to fuck up their lives should be free to do so with my blessing. I however will not support them while they do it. I have more important things to spend my money on, like MY family.

Last edited by lowing (2010-04-17 13:57:06)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

We will never agree turquoise, you feel the need to succumb to extortion, pay for my addictions or I might hurt you. I however will continue to lean toward holding people accountable for their actions without fear of what they might do because of it. I will continue to support the notion that the drug users and addicts will suffer the consequences for their decisions and not me.
Well, for your sake, I hope it never does affect you, because an environment where drugs are more readily available without the proper infrastructures in place is one where you have a much greater likelihood of being affected by the actions of addicts.

What goes around, comes around.  That's just the way of the world.

lowing wrote:

I have no desire to help people out that make an informed and conscience decision to pursue drug abuse. Or do you not think the word is out on drug abuse yet?

This is why I choose to support legalizing drugs, I do not care. Anyone that chooses to fuck up their lives should be free to do so with my blessing. I however will not support them while they do it. I have more important things to spend my money on, like MY family.
Again, with your view on rehabs, supporting the status quo makes more sense.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

We will never agree turquoise, you feel the need to succumb to extortion, pay for my addictions or I might hurt you. I however will continue to lean toward holding people accountable for their actions without fear of what they might do because of it. I will continue to support the notion that the drug users and addicts will suffer the consequences for their decisions and not me.
Well, for your sake, I hope it never does affect you, because an environment where drugs are more readily available without the proper infrastructures in place is one where you have a much greater likelihood of being affected by the actions of addicts.

What goes around, comes around.  That's just the way of the world.

lowing wrote:

I have no desire to help people out that make an informed and conscience decision to pursue drug abuse. Or do you not think the word is out on drug abuse yet?

This is why I choose to support legalizing drugs, I do not care. Anyone that chooses to fuck up their lives should be free to do so with my blessing. I however will not support them while they do it. I have more important things to spend my money on, like MY family.
Again, with your view on rehabs, supporting the status quo makes more sense.
I take note that you are not disagreeing about my point about extortion.. Sorry to hear that.

I can assure you drug addiction will not affect my family.

I am not saying do away with rehab I am saying let the proper people pay for it. IE the drug abuser, his friends ( if they choose, his family if they choose or charities ). If the drug user, his family or firends do not care enough to pay for the piece of shits rehab, why in the hell should I?

No with my views on rehab, supporting those that make proper decisons in life makes more sense.

You support extortion, I support responsiblity...We will never agree.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

I take note that you are not disagreeing about my point about extortion.. Sorry to hear that.
One could say that paying for prisons to house criminals is also extortion.  Why must I pay for prison if I never will end up there?  Shouldn't only criminals pay for the cost of prisons?

lowing wrote:

I can assure you drug addiction will not affect my family.
I'm not saying your family is at risk of addiction.  I'm saying your family is still vulnerable to the actions of the addicted.  What makes you so certain that none of your family could get mugged by an addict?

lowing wrote:

I am not saying do away with rehab I am saying let the proper people pay for it. IE the drug abuser, his friends ( if they choose, his family if they choose or charities ). If the drug user, his family or firends do not care enough to pay for the piece of shits rehab, why in the hell should I?
See my point on prisons above.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

I take note that you are not disagreeing about my point about extortion.. Sorry to hear that.
One could say that paying for prisons to house criminals is also extortion.  Why must I pay for prison if I never will end up there?  Shouldn't only criminals pay for the cost of prisons?

lowing wrote:

I can assure you drug addiction will not affect my family.
I'm not saying your family is at risk of addiction.  I'm saying your family is still vulnerable to the actions of the addicted.  What makes you so certain that none of your family could get mugged by an addict?

lowing wrote:

I am not saying do away with rehab I am saying let the proper people pay for it. IE the drug abuser, his friends ( if they choose, his family if they choose or charities ). If the drug user, his family or firends do not care enough to pay for the piece of shits rehab, why in the hell should I?
See my point on prisons above.
Because prison is punishment, it is the cost of keeping criminals out of our society. i am not paying for the prisoner. i am investing in the prison. I will support the gaurds, and their families. What happens to the prisoners inside of prison is of little regard to me. but hey ya got a good idea there, if A prisoner wants to eat, let it be up to his family to feed him. I support this. If this is not acceptable to a prisoner he has a choice, choose not to do shit that will send you to prison.

They might, they might as things are now. What is to say my family will not get killed by a DWI? this is not going to keep me off of the road and curled up in a corner. Life is risk, and it needs to be harder on those that choose a hard life over those that work and strive.

see my point on prisons above.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Because prison is punishment, it is the cost of keeping criminals out of our society. i am not paying for the prisoner. i am investing in the prison. I will support the gaurds, and their families. What happens to the prisoners inside of prison is of little regard to me. but hey ya got a good idea there, if A prisoner wants to eat, let it be up to his family to feed him. I support this. If this is not acceptable to a prisoner he has a choice, choose not to do shit that will send you to prison.
Rehabs employ people too.  Funding those invests not only in their employees but also in making a person functional again.  When a person is functional, they contribute taxes to the system, which benefits all of us.

lowing wrote:

They might, they might as things are now. What is to say my family will not get killed by a DWI? this is not going to keep me off of the road and curled up in a corner. Life is risk, and it needs to be harder on those that choose a hard life over those that work and strive.

see my point on prisons above.
Life is, indeed, risk.  But the question is...   Wouldn't you rather decrease a risk than to simply let it fester, if the solution to that risk is rather cheap compared to letting it result in a crime?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Because prison is punishment, it is the cost of keeping criminals out of our society. i am not paying for the prisoner. i am investing in the prison. I will support the gaurds, and their families. What happens to the prisoners inside of prison is of little regard to me. but hey ya got a good idea there, if A prisoner wants to eat, let it be up to his family to feed him. I support this. If this is not acceptable to a prisoner he has a choice, choose not to do shit that will send you to prison.
Rehabs employ people too.  Funding those invests not only in their employees but also in making a person functional again.  When a person is functional, they contribute taxes to the system, which benefits all of us.

lowing wrote:

They might, they might as things are now. What is to say my family will not get killed by a DWI? this is not going to keep me off of the road and curled up in a corner. Life is risk, and it needs to be harder on those that choose a hard life over those that work and strive.

see my point on prisons above.
Life is, indeed, risk.  But the question is...   Wouldn't you rather decrease a risk than to simply let it fester, if the solution to that risk is rather cheap compared to letting it result in a crime?
Yup they do, and their paychecks should come from friends family and charities, not me. Their rehab does not interest me in the slightest.

keeping prisoners away from society is however of great interest to me.


Sorry, you are getting back to extortion and I will never ever support subsidizing drug addiction for fear of what they will do to me if I don't.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Yup they do, and their paychecks should come from friends family and charities, not me. Their rehab does not interest me in the slightest.

keeping prisoners away from society is however of great interest to me.


Sorry, you are getting back to extortion and I will never ever support subsidizing drug addiction for fear of what they will do to me if I don't.
How is it any less extortion fearing what criminals would do if they were allowed to be free in society?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yup they do, and their paychecks should come from friends family and charities, not me. Their rehab does not interest me in the slightest.

keeping prisoners away from society is however of great interest to me.


Sorry, you are getting back to extortion and I will never ever support subsidizing drug addiction for fear of what they will do to me if I don't.
How is it any less extortion fearing what criminals would do if they were allowed to be free in society?
Because I have an interest in keeping criminals away form me. I do not have a interest in improving their lives or the lives of drug addicts.

Their lives and choices are up to them and perhaps anyone that might care about them. I however am not one opf those people.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yup they do, and their paychecks should come from friends family and charities, not me. Their rehab does not interest me in the slightest.

keeping prisoners away from society is however of great interest to me.


Sorry, you are getting back to extortion and I will never ever support subsidizing drug addiction for fear of what they will do to me if I don't.
How is it any less extortion fearing what criminals would do if they were allowed to be free in society?
Because I have an interest in keeping criminals away form me. I do not have a interest in improving their lives or the lives of drug addicts.

Their lives and choices are up to them and perhaps anyone that might care about them. I however am not one opf those people.
It's not a matter of care though...   If you want to keep criminals away from you, doesn't it make sense to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


How is it any less extortion fearing what criminals would do if they were allowed to be free in society?
Because I have an interest in keeping criminals away form me. I do not have a interest in improving their lives or the lives of drug addicts.

Their lives and choices are up to them and perhaps anyone that might care about them. I however am not one opf those people.
It's not a matter of care though...   If you want to keep criminals away from you, doesn't it make sense to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place?
Not my job, it is the individuals job to keep from being a criminal...Do not be a criminal and be free, or be a criminal and pay for your choices.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:


Because I have an interest in keeping criminals away form me. I do not have a interest in improving their lives or the lives of drug addicts.

Their lives and choices are up to them and perhaps anyone that might care about them. I however am not one opf those people.
It's not a matter of care though...   If you want to keep criminals away from you, doesn't it make sense to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place?
Not my job, it is the individuals job to keep from being a criminal...Do not be a criminal and be free, or be a criminal and pay for your choices.
...and you'll pay too... 
Marlo Stanfield
online poker tax cheating
+122|5218
https://www.extremeshockusa.com/photo/60.jpg
Cheap and effective.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6584|Global Command

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/photo/60.jpg
Cheap and effective.
Nice hotlinking.

And, are you in the same camp as daryl gates that said pot smokers should be dragged to the streets and shot in the head?


Probably a liberal too?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


It's not a matter of care though...   If you want to keep criminals away from you, doesn't it make sense to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place?
Not my job, it is the individuals job to keep from being a criminal...Do not be a criminal and be free, or be a criminal and pay for your choices.
...and you'll pay too... 
Really, it is terrible that you refuse to hold people accountable for their actions in favor of assuming it for them...Oh well, like I said we will never agree on this.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Not my job, it is the individuals job to keep from being a criminal...Do not be a criminal and be free, or be a criminal and pay for your choices.
...and you'll pay too... 
Really, it is terrible that you refuse to hold people accountable for their actions in favor of assuming it for them...Oh well, like I said we will never agree on this.
No, I'm saying that we already established that, no matter what you do, you have to pay for the costs of other people doing bad things.  We pay for prisons...

All I'm suggesting is that a better move is to pay for rehabilitation before it gets to the point of incarceration.

Either way, at some point down the line, you will pay for the problems of others.  It's inevitable.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-04-17 16:16:51)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


...and you'll pay too... 
Really, it is terrible that you refuse to hold people accountable for their actions in favor of assuming it for them...Oh well, like I said we will never agree on this.
No, I'm saying that we already established that, no matter what you do, you have to pay for the costs of other people doing bad things.  We pay for prisons...

All I'm suggesting is that a better move is to pay for rehabilitation before it gets to the point of incarceration.

Either way, at some point down the line, you will pay for the problems of others.  It's inevitable.
and I say the people who are guilty should pay their problems.

Prisons is a service to society.

Paying for people's hangovers and addictions is not a service to society it is a service to the individual. I choose not to serve the individual, especially hte fucked ones.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6460|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:


Really, it is terrible that you refuse to hold people accountable for their actions in favor of assuming it for them...Oh well, like I said we will never agree on this.
No, I'm saying that we already established that, no matter what you do, you have to pay for the costs of other people doing bad things.  We pay for prisons...

All I'm suggesting is that a better move is to pay for rehabilitation before it gets to the point of incarceration.

Either way, at some point down the line, you will pay for the problems of others.  It's inevitable.
and I say the people who are guilty should pay their problems.

Prisons is a service to society.

Paying for people's hangovers and addictions is not a service to society it is a service to the individual. I choose not to serve the individual, especially hte fucked ones.
Other people would say that rehabs are a service to society for the reasons I've listed.

Nevertheless, yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6830|Moscow, Russia

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

or caffeine?
or caffeine.
So, basically, you're saying we should convert to Mormonism.
that pastafarian-thing you posted in another thread looked okay. convert to that.

Turquoise wrote:

But seriously...  You must be one of the few people in Russia who doesn't drink.
and me being a black sheep in the russuan happy alcoholic flock does what to do with this discussion?

Turquoise wrote:

While I'll agree that it's healthier to avoid alcohol, caffeine, etc., you gotta live a little bit.
spend an hour in a gym, followed by half an hour in a sauna, then have a dinner and get laid afterwards. this will net you more "happyness" in the form of endorphines than any alcoholic or pot party ever could, and it will neither poison you nor will it fuckup your brain.

Turquoise wrote:

Being a social drinker isn't a bad thing IMHO.
it's not, the social part of it that is. the problem is being unable to control this shit - and, as i said, nobody is capable of controlling their addictions, not without giving up the source.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5233|Sydney

Shahter wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Shahter wrote:

then make it a benefit. let the fucktards do usefull stuff - repair the roads and smthing like that. give them a choice - a month in therapy and half a year of felling wood or several years in prison. throw the bastards in the water and see how many of them would swim. and those who won't - let them rot.
if i agree with lowing on anything is that you are too kind to your criminals - they are a danger to the society and should be treated as such.
1) You're completely stereotyping the argument into addiction and people with nothing else in their lives. The fact remains that out of all the people that use drugs, these people fall into the small minority.
people who take drugs regularly are ether already "drugs and nothing else in their lives" or on the way there. nobody on this plabet is capable of controlling their addictions - not without completely giving up the source of it. and since there's no reliable and easy way to tell a "hardcore" drug user from "casual" they should all be treated equally as the criminals they are - and the drugs kept illegal.
Have you got a source for these claims, or are you just making them up?
I bet it's the latter.

Jaekus wrote:

2) Imposing your values upon people who have a problem such as addiction never really works in the long term.
wat? i don't even know where to start with this statement. when was the last time you looked out the window or watched tv, dude? everybody and their mother in law are busy "imposing their values" upon people, and if works so fucking well i'm not sure what's there to discuss, tbh.
You're not having a discussion, you're just flouting your point of view. Big difference.

Jaekus wrote:

3) You're unlikely to change your mind or want any education on the subject seeing as you feel fully justified in your narrow minded view, so what's the fucking point in me trying?
so now you know what level of education i have in the matter after reading my post on internet forums. well... kewl to be you.
You're displaying a fair amount of ignorance tbh. Hence my comments about getting an education on the subject.

I've spoken with drug counsellors and done a lot of my own research on the matter. The fact remains (and you can google it for all I care, but I doubt you will) that criminalizing drugs for the common user in the majority of cases simply makes things worse. It fills prisons with people who have issues that should be managed and treated, not punished. Punish the manufacturers and suppliers, but someone with a heroin addiction who can't get off it? Yeah, chuck them in prison, I bet the taxpayer would love to pay $100,000 per year for them to come out the other side with more issues than trying to rehabilitate them in a more productive manner.

Courts should really be offering people the choice of rehab or prison for every user that is put before them, at least for first time offenders.

A lot of people who are drug addicts also have mental health issues. Incarcertaing them is just going to make these issues worse, and you can get drugs in prison so it's likely to make things worse, not better. Large bodies of study have shown decriminaliztion actually reduces the need for crime and increases the willingness people with addiction in seeking help.

Your view on decriminaliztion aside, a lot of your comments show a lot of opinion, but not a lot of understanding on the issue. I can't see how we can have a proper discussion on this issue when you don't try to seek some knowledge on this subject.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5233|Sydney
Oh, and just to back up my argument, check this out (I googled the term "decriminalization" and found this, it took me about 10 seconds):

5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results
Street drugrelated deaths from overdoses drop and the rate of HIV cases crashes

By Brian Vastag   

DRUG PLAN: Portugal decriminalized the use and possession of marijuana, cocaine, heroin and other illicit street drugs in an attempt to cut down on related deaths and infections

In the face of a growing number of deaths and cases of HIV linked to drug abuse, the Portuguese government in 2001 tried a new tack to get a handle on the problem—it decriminalized the use and possession of heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other illicit street drugs. The theory: focusing on treatment and prevention instead of jailing users would decrease the number of deaths and infections.

Five years later, the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006,  according to a report released recently by the Cato Institute, a Washington, D.C, libertarian think tank.

"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.

Under the Portuguese plan, penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines depending on the crime. But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.

Each three-person commission includes at least one lawyer or judge and one health care or social services worker. The panel has the option of recommending treatment, a small fine, or no sanction.

Peter Reuter, a criminologist at the University of Maryland, College Park, says he's skeptical decriminalization was the sole reason drug use slid in Portugal, noting that another factor, especially among teens, was a global decline in marijuana use. By the same token, he notes that critics were wrong in their warnings that decriminalizing drugs would make Lisbon a drug mecca.

"Drug decriminalization did reach its primary goal in Portugal," of reducing the health consequences of drug use, he says, "and did not lead to Lisbon becoming a drug tourist destination."

Walter Kemp, a spokesperson for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, says decriminalization in Portugal "appears to be working." He adds that his office is putting more emphasis on improving health outcomes, such as reducing needle-borne infections, but that it does not explicitly support decriminalization, "because it smacks of legalization."

Drug legalization removes all criminal penalties for producing, selling and using drugs; no country has tried it. In contrast, decriminalization, as practiced in Portugal, eliminates jail time for drug users but maintains criminal penalties for dealers. Spain and Italy have also decriminalized personal use of drugs and Mexico's president has proposed doing the same. .

A spokesperson for the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy declined to comment, citing the pending Senate confirmation of the office's new director, former Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske. The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the U.S. Department of State's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs also declined to comment on the report.
Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic … nalization

And here's a link against your whole lock-them-up-because-they're-all-criminals argument, and shows the case for rehabilitation and treatment:

Feds fail to use effective drug treatment plans in prison
By Coco Ballantyne

Despite 20 years of scientific evidence showing that drug treatment programs work, the feds fail to offer enough of them to prisoners, according to a new study. Currently 7.1 million adults—over 2 percent of the population—in the U.S. are locked up or on probation; about half of them suffer from some kind of addiction—heroin, alcohol, crack, crystal meth, you name it—but only 20 percent of those addicts actually get effective treatment, say researchers from the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Md.

"For every dollar that you spend on treatment of substance abuse in the criminal justice system, it saves society on average four dollars," says study co-author NIDA director Nora Volkow, a psychiatrist.

Among the studies Volkow and her colleagues reviewed: one of heroin addicts treated with methadone in prison, a treatment program that they continued when they were released. That study found that addicts who received no treatment were seven times more likely than their rehabbed compeers to become addicted to heroin again once back on the streets and three times more likely to commit a crime and land back in prison.

The rehab programs save money that otherwise will likely be spent on re-incarceration of drug addicts and treatment of psychiatric disorders and diseases such as HIV or AIDS that they may contract from dirty needles used to satisfy their addictions, Volkow says.

"Many people with addiction also have psychiatric disorders," she says, noting that recreational drug use often exacerbates the problem. (In fact, more mentally ill people are housed in prisons than psychiatric hospitals in the U.S. "The Los Angeles County jail, with 3,400 mentally ill prisoners, functions as the largest psychiatric inpatient institution in the United States," according to a 2003 report by The New York Times.)

Volkow stressed the rehab programs only work if continued after addicts are released from lockups. 

"Addiction is a chronic disease. …For treatment to be effective, you have to provide continuing care," she says. "In some instances, some patients have to maintain [treatment] for several years."
Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ … 2009-01-13

Last edited by Jaekus (2010-04-19 02:47:38)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6830|Moscow, Russia
in response to this ^^ pointless google-fu:

i have actually seen this from the inside, dude. your awesome "research" does absolutely nothing to back your argument, because it's picked from the internetz with the intention of proving your - obviously biased - point of view. for each and every of these "awesome sources" you could dig one up supporting the opposite and right from there - the internetz. you'll have to forgive me for not helping you with that, i'm sure you can manage.
anyway, i've been there, i've seen it, i've scars to show you. i've lost people to this shit, i had problems with this shit myself, i spent a lot of time with those, who actually work on combating this shit, from both medical and law enforcement sides. you want me to present you a source? - come over here and i'll arrage a nice tour to addiction clinic for you, for free.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5233|Sydney
If a certified scientific website isn't good enough for you, then I can see we have no further discussion to pursue. You can maintain your rigid and somewhat narrow minded view, all the more power to you buddy.

BTW saying "come over here and I'll show you" is merely juvenile trolling, and what you're saying has FAR LESS credibility than anything I've posted.

This is all pretty pointless. I was hoping for mature discussion on this topic but it seems you're unable to provide any. I'm out.

Last edited by Jaekus (2010-04-19 03:17:02)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6706|USA

Shahter wrote:

in response to this ^^ pointless google-fu:

i have actually seen this from the inside, dude. your awesome "research" does absolutely nothing to back your argument, because it's picked from the internetz with the intention of proving your - obviously biased - point of view. for each and every of these "awesome sources" you could dig one up supporting the opposite and right from there - the internetz. you'll have to forgive me for not helping you with that, i'm sure you can manage.
anyway, i've been there, i've seen it, i've scars to show you. i've lost people to this shit, i had problems with this shit myself, i spent a lot of time with those, who actually work on combating this shit, from both medical and law enforcement sides. you want me to present you a source? - come over here and i'll arrage a nice tour to addiction clinic for you, for free.
If you can disprove his post, do it, do not merely say you can do it, and declare victory.

Why would I want to go to an addiction clinic? I have no problem avoiding drug addicts in my personal life, I see no reason wasting my time seeking them out in an attempt to prove they are really good decsent people who are just mis-understood or whatever it is you want to show us at an addiction clinic.

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