See Hurricane? Amazing ain't it?DonFck wrote:
This is actually true, unless you're a complete misanthrope that is.lowing wrote:
The burglars life is worth more than your possessions he wants to steal.
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.lowing wrote:
See Hurricane? Amazing ain't it?DonFck wrote:
This is actually true, unless you're a complete misanthrope that is.lowing wrote:
The burglars life is worth more than your possessions he wants to steal.
I need around tree fiddy.
Sorry, a burglars life is not worth more than my ability to take care of my family with my hard work. Also, I do not plan on conducting interviews to see if I can beat him up or not, or to see if he is more heavily armed than me ,or to see if he has any other intentions. I have the home field advantage and I would intend on using it to ensure the safety of my family and my home. In other words, if someone breaks into my house, they better make sure they kill me, because I am gunna defend my hearth and home by all means nessessary, up to and including killing them.DonFck wrote:
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.lowing wrote:
See Hurricane? Amazing ain't it?DonFck wrote:
This is actually true, unless you're a complete misanthrope that is.
I know I know, I am a monster.
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.DonFck wrote:
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.lowing wrote:
See Hurricane? Amazing ain't it?DonFck wrote:
This is actually true, unless you're a complete misanthrope that is.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.LividBovine wrote:
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.DonFck wrote:
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.lowing wrote:
See Hurricane? Amazing ain't it?
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
I need around tree fiddy.
I keep a pool cue (Heavy end) and rifle in my closet. Anyone who enters my house without permission better hope I grab the cue.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.LividBovine wrote:
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.DonFck wrote:
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
And there's the distinct possibility that the "intruder" is actually a family member or friend who lowing has now shot.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.LividBovine wrote:
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.DonFck wrote:
The miracle of valuing human life more than material possessions? It is pretty amazing. Given that the burglar is unarmed, that is. I'd beat him up propeely if I had the chance though. I keep a hockey stick handy.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
not hardly, family members usually knock on the fuckin' door when they want in, knowing that breaking into my home at 3 in the morning is akin to going deer hunting with your favorite fur coat and antler hat.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
And there's the distinct possibility that the "intruder" is actually a family member or friend who lowing has now shot.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.LividBovine wrote:
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
The extremity that you must try and go to in order to prove a point does nothing but bolster my argument. By all means keep posting.
Last edited by lowing (2009-11-05 03:11:48)
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you pretend to be on here. Are you?lowing wrote:
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.LividBovine wrote:
Over here you would get sued and be poor for the rest of your life. Better to just finish the job right away.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
You know those guys who say: "Yeah, I'd fuck him up good, with my 12 gauge. I'd rip his balls off with a pair of pliers, yeah!", and when push comes to shove, their nuts shrivel up to small raisins and they fall to the ground sucking their thumbs and crying for mommy?
The one's who don't gloat too much are the ones who would actually accomplish the things you say you would.
At least that's what I think.
I need around tree fiddy.
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.DonFck wrote:
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you prentend to be. Are you?lowing wrote:
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
Last edited by lowing (2009-11-05 03:14:21)
The fact that there are numerous stories of people shooting friends/family thinking they are intruders makes my point valid. And it definitely in no way bolsters your argument so try again.lowing wrote:
not hardly, family members usually knock on the fuckin' door when they want in, knowing that breaking into my home at 3 in the morning is akin to going deer hunting with your favorite fur coat and antler hat.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
And there's the distinct possibility that the "intruder" is actually a family member or friend who lowing has now shot.DonFck wrote:
Over here defending your own home is a bit more fucked up also. Something about if you use E.g. a baseball bat and the intruder has nothing, you can get sued for excessive use of force.
..cops don't take that literally when coming to the scene though. Been there. (ex gfs ex bf decided to give me a good ol' asskicking at my friends house in 2001).
@lowing: I know that would be the ideal thing to do, what you described, and I bet you've played that scene in your head a number of times, but I think in reality, if that were to happen, god forbid, odds are you'd be more likely to assume a fetal position if the guy had a gun. Most people would.
The extremity that you must try and go to in order to prove a point does nothing but bolster my argument. By all means keep posting.
Last edited by Little BaBy JESUS (2009-11-05 03:14:52)
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that (the possibility of things not working out the way you plan them). In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.DonFck wrote:
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you prentend to be. Are you?lowing wrote:
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.
I need around tree fiddy.
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?DonFck wrote:
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that. In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.DonFck wrote:
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you prentend to be. Are you?
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
do you actually honeslty think anyone here would not defend themselves? there are more options than do nothing or aim to kill.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.DonFck wrote:
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you prentend to be. Are you?lowing wrote:
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.
On the contrary... the vast majority of 'burglary' stories i have heard, the burglars have been absolute cowards. shouting at them is often enough to get them to scarper.lowing wrote:
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?DonFck wrote:
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that. In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
Last edited by Spark (2009-11-05 03:24:35)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I agree that you never know what may go down in the heat of battle. How many people have been through that type of situation? Not many really, we really do like to believe we will act a certain way, but really we don't know. It takes lots of practice to draw your sidearm when someone is rushing at you with a bat. I have seen plenty of "quick draws" fail at pulling out their weapon when faced with a simulated stress load. No telling what they would do if they were facing a real threat. So while I agree with the idea that you may be putting others in danger, I do not agree with just letting it happen. I will be ready to defend my family, and the perp better hope I have my wits about me enough to tell if he intending harm or not. I will error on my and my families side as far as that judgement is concerned.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
The fact that there are numerous stories of people shooting friends/family thinking they are intruders makes my point valid. And it definitely in no way bolsters your argument so try again.lowing wrote:
not hardly, family members usually knock on the fuckin' door when they want in, knowing that breaking into my home at 3 in the morning is akin to going deer hunting with your favorite fur coat and antler hat.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
And there's the distinct possibility that the "intruder" is actually a family member or friend who lowing has now shot.
The extremity that you must try and go to in order to prove a point does nothing but bolster my argument. By all means keep posting.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
I ain't speaking of the stupidlty of others, can't really defend it. If my family members try to break into my home while I am asleep at 3 in the morning, and not call or yell "HEY it is ERIK I am just breaking in for a cup of sugar" , they stand an excellent chance of getting shot. I also would expect some sort of shout out by a family member, but again I am not going to defend the stupidity of others. I do not need my argument bolstered, it stands quite well.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
The fact that there are numerous stories of people shooting friends/family thinking they are intruders makes my point valid. And it definitely in no way bolsters your argument so try again.lowing wrote:
not hardly, family members usually knock on the fuckin' door when they want in, knowing that breaking into my home at 3 in the morning is akin to going deer hunting with your favorite fur coat and antler hat.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
And there's the distinct possibility that the "intruder" is actually a family member or friend who lowing has now shot.
The extremity that you must try and go to in order to prove a point does nothing but bolster my argument. By all means keep posting.
I would never have thought of killing him. For one, I knew him. Secondly, he wasn't thinking clearly. Third, he wasn't there to kill me. And fourth, I'd be doing 12 years now. Instead, he's not employed due to a criminal record (courtesy of me), he lives with his parents at age 32, he can't afford shit, his gf left him and he doesn't have a new one, basically he has no decent life while at the same time: I'm upper middle management, I drive a reasonably nice car, I've got my own apartment downtown, my girlfriend is awesome and my family has their health.lowing wrote:
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?DonFck wrote:
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that. In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
..I'll get my payback though. He still owes me 3500 in damages. And I've got something personal for him, as soon as I figure out what that could be. Nothing too harmful, but something small that'll put a bump on his road and that he'll have his suspicions on where it came from.
I need around tree fiddy.
sorry, I don't consider, an interview, with a hockey atick a defense. DonFck probably doesn't either now.Spark wrote:
do you actually honeslty think anyone here would not defend themselves? there are more options than do nothing or aim to kill.lowing wrote:
Like I said, you have nothing you deem worth protecting, I do, and yer right, I have never been faced with shooting a burglar. I might curl up in the fetal possision like ya say. However, if I were you I would not advise on chancing it.DonFck wrote:
It is obvious you have absolutely no idea how a scenario would play out in real life. You aren't Rambo, even if you prentend to be. Are you?lowing wrote:
It is obvious you have absoluting nothing in your life you feel worthy of protection, certainly not a family. If you do, shame on you.On the contrary... the vast majority of 'burglary' stories i have heard, the burglars have been absolute cowards. shouting at them is often enough to get them to scarper.lowing wrote:
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?DonFck wrote:
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that. In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
I don't give a shit about the vast majorty of anything. I am not going to put my hearth and home in danger by simply hoping I am part of the "vast majority"
Sounds like he would have been better off if you had put him out of his misery. and no, you wouldn't be in jail for killing a person who broke into your home.DonFck wrote:
I would never have thought of killing him. For one, I knew him. Secondly, he wasn't thinking clearly. Third, he wasn't there to kill me. And fourth, I'd be doing 12 years now. Instead, he's not employed due to a criminal record (courtesy of me), he lives with his parents at age 32, he can't afford shit, his gf left him and he doesn't have a new one, basically he has no decent life while at the same time: I'm upper middle management, I drive a reasonably nice car, I've got my own apartment downtown, my girlfriend is awesome and my family has their health.lowing wrote:
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?DonFck wrote:
First of all, yes I do. Secondly, I'm glad you admitted to that. In my mind, I would do everything possible to protect myself and my family. Last time I got a visit from an intruder (the only time, mentioned earlier) it didn't work out too well. After receiving the first punch which broke my nose and I lost conciousness, I concentrated mostly on protecting such organs which couldn't be fixed without surgery until the police would arrive 30 minutes later. Then again, he wasn't a burglar, but a guy who had decided to fuck me up.
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
..I'll get my payback though. He still owes me 3500 in damages. And I've got something personal for him, as soon as I figure out what that could be. Nothing too harmful, but something small that'll put a bump on his road and that he'll have his suspicions on where it came from.
Yes I would. Well, not 12 for murder, but 5 for involuntary.lowing wrote:
Sounds like he would have been better off if you had put him out of his misery. and no, you wouldn't be in jail for killing a person who broke into your home.DonFck wrote:
I would never have thought of killing him. For one, I knew him. Secondly, he wasn't thinking clearly. Third, he wasn't there to kill me. And fourth, I'd be doing 12 years now. Instead, he's not employed due to a criminal record (courtesy of me), he lives with his parents at age 32, he can't afford shit, his gf left him and he doesn't have a new one, basically he has no decent life while at the same time: I'm upper middle management, I drive a reasonably nice car, I've got my own apartment downtown, my girlfriend is awesome and my family has their health.lowing wrote:
Gee, and to think all ya had to do was shoot him. Since you like scenarios, lets assume the burglar was there for something more, rape, or killing your family members, ( now that you are out of the way) wouldn't you be left wishing you had shott the guy?
I find it hard to believe that, after your ordeal, you still do not think you should protect yourself, ( I mean REALLY protect yourself).
It takes a giant set of balls to break into another persons home. Those same balls are used to his advantage while he is in there, you need to counter them with something other than hope.
..I'll get my payback though. He still owes me 3500 in damages. And I've got something personal for him, as soon as I figure out what that could be. Nothing too harmful, but something small that'll put a bump on his road and that he'll have his suspicions on where it came from.
I need around tree fiddy.
tell me, where do you live that would punish you for protecting yourself? Just wanna know so I don't move there.DonFck wrote:
Yes I would. Well, not 12 for murder, but 5 for involuntary.lowing wrote:
Sounds like he would have been better off if you had put him out of his misery. and no, you wouldn't be in jail for killing a person who broke into your home.DonFck wrote:
I would never have thought of killing him. For one, I knew him. Secondly, he wasn't thinking clearly. Third, he wasn't there to kill me. And fourth, I'd be doing 12 years now. Instead, he's not employed due to a criminal record (courtesy of me), he lives with his parents at age 32, he can't afford shit, his gf left him and he doesn't have a new one, basically he has no decent life while at the same time: I'm upper middle management, I drive a reasonably nice car, I've got my own apartment downtown, my girlfriend is awesome and my family has their health.
..I'll get my payback though. He still owes me 3500 in damages. And I've got something personal for him, as soon as I figure out what that could be. Nothing too harmful, but something small that'll put a bump on his road and that he'll have his suspicions on where it came from.
Read under avatar. It's perfectly fine to protect yourself, shooting to kill instantaneously is.. .. considered just a tad insane over here.lowing wrote:
tell me, where do you live that would punish you for protecting yourself? Just wanna know so I don't move there.DonFck wrote:
Yes I would. Well, not 12 for murder, but 5 for involuntary.lowing wrote:
Sounds like he would have been better off if you had put him out of his misery. and no, you wouldn't be in jail for killing a person who broke into your home.
I need around tree fiddy.
Killing robbers is helping society as you exterminate the parasites of society. If someone comes into my home and starts taking away possessions, I'd pop a motherfucker if I had a gun then call the cops.
As in Taiwan people do not have firearms, so keeping a baseball bat around is always handy.
As in Taiwan people do not have firearms, so keeping a baseball bat around is always handy.
Sorry to hear that, over here it is your right to defend yourself, your hearth and home. ( with something more than hope and hockeystick) Rarely do the burglars wait for the cops to show up.DonFck wrote:
Read under avatar. It's perfectly fine to protect yourself, shooting to kill instantaneously is.. .. considered just a tad insane over here.lowing wrote:
tell me, where do you live that would punish you for protecting yourself? Just wanna know so I don't move there.DonFck wrote:
Yes I would. Well, not 12 for murder, but 5 for involuntary.
Last edited by lowing (2009-11-05 04:17:32)