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Poll

What should we do?

Nothing, leave it as it is.33%33% - 33
Go in, dismantle all the goverments, burn it down.7%7% - 7
Deport everyone to Madagascar.3%3% - 3
Fuck 'em, kill every last one of them. Nukem.42%42% - 42
Bake them cookies and hope they leave us alone.13%13% - 13
Total: 98
raze
Member
+0|5983|Vienna
I bet Putin wants to fire some bombs down there and watch the atom-like mushrooms from his villa with some stolychnaja in his hand.....and that's what he should do....
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

Torin wrote:

It still amazes me that after years of all this BS in the middle east, that there are still people that support the war, however much that % of the population is dwindling.

We've made what, no progress at all in the past 2 years?

So we see some country that is ruled by a vicious dictator, breeding terrorism and suffering, what do we do? We take it over and force feed them democracy, that will cure all that ails them! Except once we do, ironically, we end up breeding even more terrorism and suffering, and arguably they are in even worse shape than when we got the pea-brained idea to invade in the first place. But! They have a blooming little democracy of generally corrupt politicians now! Hurray! Add in to that some religious extremists having actual power, and what do we have? A situation 10 times shittier than when we ever laid eyes on it!

The "War on Terrorism" has become the biggest joke in the history of the world. It makes just as much sense as other phenomenal success stories such as the "War on Drugs". Hey, let's start a war on something that does nothing but makes the problem worse! We'll fight terrorism by spawning 500% more of it!

What a crock.

This is why the separation of church and state was put into the constitution, to avoid stupid religiously motivated nonsense like we've had the pleasure of experiencing the past 6 years. Hey, but let's gray the line between the two so we can get away with personal vendettas that have nothing to do with "spreading freedom and democracy" and more to do with idealogical delusion.
No progress huh?  They've voted now how many times?  Girls now attend school.  Uday no longer rapes women.

They hated us long before and will hate us long after we're gone.  Nothing we can do can appease these religious tards save conversion.

If you knew anything about history you would know that if something is deemed illegal people will still find away to make/use/sell it.  Prohibition anyone?

Facts of vendettas please.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6102|Noizyland

I see your point, but would you rather be blissfully ignorant while in the Middle-east, things of relevance are happening. The thing is, important things are happening that do turn up on the news. What would take it's place? More crappy human interest stories, "This budgie learned to roller-skate." I fucken hope not.

It's a fucked up place at the moment, and fucked up things generally are brought to everyone's attention. Look at Lee Tamahori. Now that was fucked up!
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
jord
Member
+2,382|6006|The North, beyond the wall.
Dont forget mec are the shittest bf2 side!
ilyandor
Member
+31|6016|Phoenix, AZ
i hate people defending DUMB fucks like the suicide bombing throat-cutting islamic dickheads.
every time you defend islam, you defend them and vise versa. all muslims should go back to the dirt shithole they call middle east and shut the fuck up. you people will NEVER BECOME CIVILISED, GROWN UP, MATURE human beings.
HellHead
The fantastic Mr. Antichrist
+336|6037|Germany

Torin wrote:

What is religion? A guideline for how a society should be run. And we have multiple guidelines on how to run a society that conflict in very basic ways, but we're still trying to smash them together and hope the whole thing just doesn't explode. Well, it is, which is why this whole situation in the middle east is doomed to failure.
I don´t think is doomed to failure...
The question is : What makes religion in country as strong as it is ?
Answer : The lack of basic living supplies

Example : Every western country, which is considered to be rich is not refering to religion that much like it works
in the "poor" countries.

So if you raise the living standard in a country, the people will automatically lose their interest in their believes in religion a lot, so the leaders can´t use it any more as a power of control
Torin
Member
+52|6020

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

No progress huh?  They've voted now how many times?  Girls now attend school.  Uday no longer rapes women.

They hated us long before and will hate us long after we're gone.  Nothing we can do can appease these religious tards save conversion.

If you knew anything about history you would know that if something is deemed illegal people will still find away to make/use/sell it.  Prohibition anyone?

Facts of vendettas please.
2 steps forward and 3 steps back is not progress.

And nothing they can do can appease our religious tards either.

What do your comments on legality have anything to do with the current situation?

Facts of progress (overall, big picture progress, not 1 or 2 pitiful examples that the people running things would pass off as progress), please.

Edit: Added quote, this thread is moving.

Last edited by Torin (2006-02-07 12:30:31)

General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|6028|England, UK
Well said wannabetank whore.
And can I say. Iran should have f all nuclear capablilty. Any country that say it wants to wipe another country off the face of the earth needs to be delt with. FFS!
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

Torin wrote:

tF-afrojap wrote:

Torin wrote:

Hey, but let's gray the line between the two so we can get away with personal vendettas that have nothing to do with "spreading freedom and democracy" and more to do with idealogical delusion.
Totally agree with graying the lines between religion and politics, that shit is never cool. But it's the next thing you said.. do you seriously think the U.S. invested all that capital over a personal vendetta?
No, I think it started as a personal vendetta and evolved into what it is now, an obligation to finish what we started, hence the requisite investment of all that capital.

Do you think the country (read: congress) would have gone along with this "war" if the administration said ahead of time that it would cost the lives of thousands of our troops, tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens, billions upon billions of tax payer's dollars and what may very well end up as a complete ruination of another soverign nation just to facilitate dethroning 1 of the world's many dictators?

No, I don't think anyone had intended to invest all that capital, that's just what it has unfortunately come to. The only thing worse than invading a soverign nation with no plausible or substantiated reason, is invading a soverign nation with no plausible or substantiated reason and then leaving them to clean up the mess on their own. Unfortunately it took all this to save face (if you can even consider it that) for what has become just 1 more bullet point on the ever-growing list of the administration's botched attempts at doing some good.
It is war.  People die in war.  Hell, people die in Detriot, Atlanta, and LA too... go figure.  Yes, wars usually cost money and if the people didn't know that this war would cost lives and money then they shouldn't be able to vote.

Using bullet points describe Clinton's "doing some good".
HellHead
The fantastic Mr. Antichrist
+336|6037|Germany

Cougar wrote:

tF-afrojap wrote:

Good post Marco, I am seriously disappointed with the replies from our bf2s community so far. Not that it was a great topic to start with. Bunch of flame bait if you ask me. It's a gross and ignorant generalization, not worth my time. If you don't have anything meaningful to add to the thread, don't bother posting. This isn't the place for it.
poopy
Proves my point about the ignorance theory...
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

Torin wrote:

Anyways, I'm certainly a liberal, I definitely oppose this whole situation in the middle east, and I think the US has more and more become a nation fit to stick it's nose where it absolutely doesn't belong, to facilitate a role in global politics that it has no place taking. Some people think that the US is fit to be the 1-country equivalent of the UN, forcing it's will on whoever it wants, whenever it wants, and apparently has what it takes to get away with it, no matter how many millions of people across the globe disagree.

I am also saddened by the fact that the majority of our country's population is filled with narrow minded, religiously motivated war mongers that would like nothing more than for the largest military force on the planet to go pushing people around on the basis that they do things differently than we do. The human race, especially the group that makes up the US, is not fit for governing what has become of the modern day super powers. The tolerance for other people's/nation's religious/political/social beliefs is so limited and in many cases non-existent, that our attempts at policing the world and force feeding whatever butchery of our founder's ideals the administration decides to stand behind is nothing short of a formula for disaster.

The big problem with the US is that we meddle where we do not belong. And on an international scale, that's quite the dangerous game, and apparently pays off for no one involved.
Should we tolerate them as much as they tolerate us?
General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|6028|England, UK
Torin, look at run up to the second world war. As in the appeesement by the UK and the isolationist stance of the US. Apply that now to the middle east. Now add the nuclear age. The west can't afford to f around. And neither can the vast majority of the muslim community.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|6092|Dallas
I've typed to much today, so HellHound or whatever your name is, yeah.  Thats all, just a yeah.  Damn the man.

Last edited by Cougar (2006-02-07 12:38:44)

Torin
Member
+52|6020

HellHead wrote:

Torin wrote:

What is religion? A guideline for how a society should be run. And we have multiple guidelines on how to run a society that conflict in very basic ways, but we're still trying to smash them together and hope the whole thing just doesn't explode. Well, it is, which is why this whole situation in the middle east is doomed to failure.
I don´t think is doomed to failure...
The question is : What makes religion in country as strong as it is ?
Answer : The lack of basic living supplies

Example : Every western country, which is considered to be rich is not refering to religion that much like it works
in the "poor" countries.

So if you raise the living standard in a country, the people will automatically lose their interest in their believes in religion a lot, so the leaders can´t use it any more as a power of control
What makes religion as strong as it is, is a basic need for some form of structure. They have a joke of a government now and were dictated over before, it's no wonder they cling to religion.

No, religion is not such a fore front in rich countries as it is in poor countries, but that doesn't mean it doesn't play a huge role behind the scenes. Religion (or the rebellion against) is the single most dominant influence over human behavior everywhere in the world, rich or poor.

And it's the religion and ideals behind it that have control over the people, the leaders merely have sway over how those ideals are realized. You have to understand that religion is a system of structure, designed to control how people live together. So long as they cling to religious beliefs, they will be governed by the structure of doing things that religion entails. Religion IS the way of life in the middle east, and even if you raise the standards of living in Iraq, they're still going to be fucked up in the eyes of all these closed minded Americans who expect the entire world to see things and behave just as they do. Our way of life is never going to be their way of life, no matter how much we want it to be for sake of our convenience. So long as we meddle where we do not belong, nothing is going to be convenient about the interaction we have with people in the middle east.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Exactly right.  And if it is the US, England, or Australia that's going to bail out the rest of the world you had better believe we have every right to intervene.  Unless you think millions in Uganda deserve to be slaughtered?
General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|6028|England, UK
Torin, I refer to my previous comments.
jord
Member
+2,382|6006|The North, beyond the wall.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Exactly right.  And if it is the US, England, or Australia that's going to bail out the rest of the world you had better believe we have every right to intervene.  Unless you think millions in Uganda deserve to be slaughtered?
Dont forget the bf2 mec side are a bag of SHIT!
Torin
Member
+52|6020

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Should we tolerate them as much as they tolerate us?
We should leave each other the hell alone until we can figure out how to properly interact. Meddling like we did in Iraq was completely immature given how poorly our peoples understand each other. It was a big fucking mistake all around.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

It is war.  People die in war.  Hell, people die in Detriot, Atlanta, and LA too... go figure.  Yes, wars usually cost money and if the people didn't know that this war would cost lives and money then they shouldn't be able to vote.

Using bullet points describe Clinton's "doing some good".
All true, but the reason for going into Iraq was not to start a war, it was to remove weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist. That is what people voted to approve, not a war that yes, everyone would have known would be as costly as it has.

I never said Clinton did any good, this isn't a political thing. One of the many points I am making is that this administration is a big giant fuck up. Any administration, democrat or republican can be a big fuck up, and it just so happened that this one has been one of the biggest fuck ups in recent history.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Exactly right.  And if it is the US, England, or Australia that's going to bail out the rest of the world you had better believe we have every right to intervene.  Unless you think millions in Uganda deserve to be slaughtered?
Actually, I do. Our role is not fucking world police, we don't have the right to intervene in every human disaster that occurs across the globe. I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest, and I hope these uncultured, uncivilized piece of shit societies lacking any form of evolution will just wipe themselves out, saving the rest of civilized society some time where we can make actual progress, rather than constant tribal warfare and religiously motivated genocide.

The majority of civilized society has made it to where we are today, and not on the merit of some country who decided to stick it's nose into any tragedy it felt obliged to. When the native indians were being slaughtered during the settling of North America, who came along to stop it? Not a damn person. Why then because it is possible today, should we now intervene in any situation we don't like, just because we can? Do you think that somehow, through our intervention, these societies completely devoid of evolutional progress are going to actually make progress? No, they have to struggle through this shit.

Civil war should not be our concern, no matter what form it takes and where. There is a huge difference between the nuclear situation in Iran, and tribal nations performing genocide on themselves in Africa. One affects the entire world, the other affects 1 single country, caused by it's own lack of evolution.

Let these uncivilized fuckers burn themselves, and maybe one day enough common sense will dawn upon them to make them worthy of being a contribution to global affairs. Until then, the US doesn't need to go running into any situation it feels fit, force feeding ideals onto people that don't believe them.

I hate closed minded republicans.

Last edited by Torin (2006-02-07 12:53:47)

General_CoLin_Tassi
Member
+-2|6028|England, UK
Torin, the capability for WMD in Iraq was there. In the form of peoples and skills and the readyness to have a nuclear program once sactions had been lifted. Obviously didn't go that way.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

Torin wrote:

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, things changed after WW2. Being isolationist didn't help anyone prior to WW2. It allowed a problem to get worse. Now we intervene. Fingers crossed and hope it works.
Yes, things changed, but no one gave us the right to go around and literally do whatever the hell we want. Intervening to help where help is requested and needed is one thing, it's an entirely differently thing to invade another soverign nation and force a completely foreign government and way of thinking on a people that for all intents and purposes is still living in the middle ages.

Cross all the fingers you want, but it isn't working.

It is a far stretch going from being isolationists to doing what we do now, which is completely unwarranted and unfair to the people who we impose our will upon.

As a super power, we have what it takes to make a difference in the world, but this "war on terrorism" and Operation Iraqi Freedom have done nothing to make a positive difference in the world, it just made a problem worse, ironally very similiar to how doing nothing prior to WW2 made things worse. Apparently, we're very good at doing things wrong, regardless to whether or not we decide to get involved.

Edit: Added the quote.
I'm sure the 100,000 "Ugandians" had Clinton's number on speed dial but forgot to call him before they were killed.  Do you think the oppressed can simply call up a super power to be rescued.  Please stop watching Superman... it doesn't work like that in the real world.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|6092|Dallas

jord wrote:

Dont forget the bf2 mec side are a bag of SHIT!
Agreed.  I donkey punched a MEC chick once.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6105

Torin wrote:

I agree with a lot of the points the OP makes, but obviously I disagree with the reasoning behind what made things the way they are in the first place.

The root of the problem here, on all sides, is there is not even remotely enough tolerance and understanding of foreign people. Everything that goes on in the Middle East seems stupid to us, and I'm sure everything that goes on here seems stupid to them. Except in their case, their religion (or whatever twisting of their religion they decide to follow) gives them a reason to kill us over it, similiar to how our moral majority thought it was ok to go in and kill off Sadam's regime.

And the biggest cause of all this crap is religion. If it weren't for religion, especially the conficts between the thinking of christians and muslims, none of this nonsense would have ever happened. If left to human nature, logical and common sense, there would no doubt be much more positive change in the world than there is today. However, everything that is screwed up in the world is for the most part caused by the effects of religion on society. And the biggest unfortunate part of all of this, is that it will never change. Religion is unforunately so ingrained in the minds of billions of people that one cannot hope to expect rational, logical thinking out of enough of the world's population required to get good things done.

Humanity is doomed to these endless struggles because of this widespread disease of close minded, religious extremism that permeates the very core of international troubles.

Thank god we have distractions like BF2 to take our minds off of the ultimate doom our species is bound to meet at our own hands. (and by our, I mean humanity)
So if you don't believe in God then you would have to believe that it was created by man.  What were the nations doing before man created God?  Look at Africa.  There were warring tribes long before your hated Muslims and Christians were fighting.

BTW, why are you so intolerant to the 2?  You should respect their way of life.
Torin
Member
+52|6020

General_CoLin_Tassi wrote:

Torin, the capability for WMD in Iraq was there. In the form of peoples and skills and the readyness to have a nuclear program once sactions had been lifted. Obviously didn't go that way.
Well, I guess that's all the excuse someone needs to invade a soverign nation, eh?

Well shit, I hope one day North Korea doesn't just bomb the fuck out of us because we have the capability to bomb them first, the skills and readiness to use our nuclear program.

Since when is a country's capability to do something a plausible excuse to violate their rights as a soverign nation? Never.

Whatever spin you put on it, invading Iraq was wrong, not to mention a completely fucking horrible idea. (in hindsight)
Ziggy_79x
Member
+4|6013

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

So what must we do?  The same thing is happening in Africa where thousands starve and are slaughtered by thugs.  The dictatorships in both the middle east and African countries have plenty of money yet they starve their population.  We're trying in both areas.  And that's more than most countries can say.
I'm glad someone brought up Africa here because it's a very good point. There have been ruthless dictators there slaughtering innocent people for a long ass time. But nobody seems to care really. You didn't see us sending hundreds of thousand of our troops and spending billions of dollars for a war in Rawanda when millions of innocent people were dying there. I mean the genocide that was going on there would make Saddam jealous. The war in Iraq didn't have shit to do with terrorism, and I get sick every time I hear the words "OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM". BULLSHIT! It should be "OPERATION MAKE A PUPPET GOVERNMENT IN IRAQ SO WE CAN CONTROLL ALL THEIR OIL" Bush and his administration dosen't give two shits about oppressed people anywhere in the world, or bringing freedom to those people. And while the invasion of Iraq may not have been a vendetta, it certainly wasn't for the FREEDOM of the Iraqi people.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6022|San Francisco

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

What about the USS Cole, the embasy bombings, the first Trade Tower attack?  So, Clinton is in on it too by your logic.
I've already discussed that at length in another thread, but to narrow it down to a nutshell:
WTC 1 was planned and carried out by four men a mere month into Clinton's presidency.  Clinton quickly hunted down and arrested the lot of them and they are now in prison.  The embassy bombings resulted in Clinton retaliating with cruise missiles launched into key targets of the people who claimed responsibility.
The USS Cole was carried out by bin Laden's group, but that happened in the last year of Clinton's presidency.  He knew it was Al Qaeda, and had Richard Clarke come in and devise a way to completely eradicate them.  The Bush administration kept Clarke in the White House when they took over, but neglected to listen to Clarke nor read his document outlining the way to take them down.  They ignored him until September 4th, 2001.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Fear and MONEY!!  Most kidnappings go unreported because they aren't US citizens.  Italy paid for the release of all Italian hostages.
Good point there.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

So what must we do?  The same thing is happening in Africa where thousands starve and are slaughtered by thugs.  The dictatorships in both the middle east and African countries have plenty of money yet they starve their population.  We're trying in both areas.  And that's more than most countries can say.
...People have been dying for hundreds of years in Africa, Middle east, and all over the world.  We're trying to make a difference now, that is all.
World affairs affect us, but it's another matter entirely if we decide to go vigilante with everything we find "wrong," as then we just ride on in and push our beliefs on other cultures.  We can't do anything unless the people being affected by awful dictatorships/corruption actually Ask us for help directly.  Like in the Mogadishu incident highlgihted in "Black Hawk Down."  The general the army takes into custody calmly says "It's not your war."  The world just isn't our responsibility alone; we don't own it.  Terrible things may happen around the world, but attempting to address them all will just spread our country too thin and break us apart economically, structurally, and politically.  We need to come back into ourself and fix the problems we have here in our own country before we think it's necessary to start up our "democracy" manifest Destiny again (and it's never right to do that).

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