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Topic closed

Poll

What should we do?

Nothing, leave it as it is.33%33% - 33
Go in, dismantle all the goverments, burn it down.7%7% - 7
Deport everyone to Madagascar.3%3% - 3
Fuck 'em, kill every last one of them. Nukem.42%42% - 42
Bake them cookies and hope they leave us alone.13%13% - 13
Total: 98
2006-03-05 22:22:51
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6683|Canberra, AUS

=DBD=TITAN126 wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Once again, I'm just going to post this:

The people who signed the PNAC report and the statement regarding what the PNAC is all about.

The People's New American Century (PNAC) Report

I know no one is probably going to read it, but if you do, 9/11 being an inside job only becomes more and more plausible.  This is a report that the people within the Bush Administration wrote during the Bush Sr. administration detailing out what they want to do with the world once they have a president in power.  Obviously, Clinton being elected dashed everything they wanted to do, so they moved on and pushed it all into GWB's agenda.  And yes, a lot of things out of the report have been enacted, mainly dealing with Civil Liberties and the Middle East, and a chilling passage straight from it:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor."
~Page 51 of the PNAC report

That and a slough of facts that came out of ground zero that were just really odd...but I guess this isn't the place to talk about them since I'll just get shot down as yet another conspiracy theorist...
Marconius, please stop citing the PNAC report for everything you talk about. Man, everytime you post something about 9/11, the War in Iraq, or President Bush, all I ever see is "The PNAC report said..." or "read page 51 - the proof is right there!" Big deal, who cares what it says? I read a lot about politics and I had never even heard about it until I starting reading these forums.

And if you really believe that America is as bad as you say it is, that the government is "in cahoots with bin Ladin," and that 9/11 was staged by the government, I'd suggest relocating to another country. Maybe to a country like Palestine? Then you could learn what it would really be like to be in a country that was "in cahoots with bin Laden."
I've heard of it before (PNAC). It becomes a big deal when you A. look what PNAC's goals are and B. Look at the list of signatures on the bottom.

In a nutshell: The PNAC's aim is to make the world a US ruled military-run one.

And I would like to congratulate whittsend on repeatedly and systematically pwning el pisterolo. (or whatever his name is).

Oh, and to that el pisterolo guy: The key labelled ENTER (or RETURN) is NOT a substitute for a FULL STOP (or PERIOD) or COMMA. Also, 'U' is meaningless (unless used in the context of U-turn). I am I, YOU are you.

Last edited by Spark (2006-03-05 22:31:17)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-03-05 23:07:03
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6702|San Francisco
Unpatriotic?  Dissent is the very nature of patriotism.  What you are stuck in is Nationalism.  The "USA: Love it or leave it" attitude is direct Nationalism.  Don't believe me?  Check out what our forefathers had to say about it.

What you've just caught yourself doing is criticising me without even contemplating my source.  I HAVE thought about it, plus I've read the report.  You have absolutely no say on the issue as you haven't read it, so stop criticising me until you've read it for yourself.  And for everything else I have said regarding the current assholes in power, just do a little googling and fact checking before claiming that I am "unpatriotic" in the ways of my thinking.
2006-03-05 23:56:49
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6683|Canberra, AUS
As I said in that '20 things...' topic:

If you have a shitty government, the ones who are the most patriotic and who love their country their most are the ones who try to take the government down.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-03-06 07:24:53
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6767|MA, USA

El pistolero7 wrote:

Mr Whittsend
...Dont get this wrong, I dont now who u are ,Where u come from ,and were ur going. The only thing i know is that u are beeing use for other purposes, the military.
Ur country gets candidates for the president post, time by time, Usually rich college boys and other persons
who claims whats better for ur country.And the danger is when ppl back them up and elect them.
And suddenly they are presidents: Therefore u as in the USmilitary ,considered as the best armed force in the world ,will have to serve under their government.And the equation is simple: A fool+A great armed force=Catastrophy.........
And to me: US government can´t be trusted, among others, like i said, they lied before and will lie again.......
The distance between the ppl and leaders has gotten to huge, and this is not just and US problem......
And about religion:
Ur right i shouldnt criticise the military for obeing orders blindly,  when most religious ppl are the same,Unfortunatly.
Thats why i could not serve in any military, because i know i will have to serve under politicians and leaders who most of the time are untrustly and dont play straight .
I don't entirely disagree with what you have said here, but I think you have a problem with emphasis.  Do we have some shitty Politicians running the show?  Unquestionably (but as you say, this is not a uniquely American problem).  I don't see most of the actions of our government as catastrophic, like you do.  I see many of them as unfortunate.  For example:  I am a soldier, and I went to Iraq, as ordered.  As a citizen, I am not particularly thrilled with our troops being there, BUT I don't see it as the US throwing it's weight around just for the sake of sticking our noses in other's business, or to corner the market on Oil; and I don't think our being there is completely wrong.  The truth is, Saddam Hussein was a very nasty piece of work, and THAT is why the American people allowed our govenrment to send troops there in the first place (whatever the agenda of some of the politicians may have been).  So, as bad as the situation in Iraq may be, and no matter what happens, some good will have come from it because we got rid of him.  I believe that the will of the American PEOPLE is largely good, whatever the politicians do, and that the people will not let the politicians stray too far on their own.  I'm not sure if what I am trying to say is clear, one could write volumes on this subject.  I guess, in a nutshell, I'm saying that I trust in the goodwill of the People to get us to the right place in the end.

El pistolero7 wrote:

But US has a big problem compared to other countries: They are abroad fighting in other countries.Creating more Violence and Evil Circles,  Also does Great britain. Most of others countries military are  at home and just put there just to defend its borders. Except UN Supporting countries.
You can NOT characterise US actions in Iraq as "creating violence".  That is like saying that people who buy cars are responsible for creating Auto theft.  You are blaming the wrong people for the violence.  The violence is being perpetrated by people with an interest in destabilising the country...people who do not wish to see a successful Iraqi republic.  Those people are VERY aware of what they are doing, and they are also aware that the surest way to send US troops home quickly is to stop fighting them.  EVERYONE wants US troops out of Iraq, as quickly as possible, EXCEPT for the people who are shouting the loudest for their departure through violence.

You would probably be very surprised to know how many countries have had troops overseas recently.  If you want to argue that the US is the only country with an adventurous foreign policy, I can give you a long list of countries that have had troops on foreign soil in the past few decades - Obviously the list doesn't include Germany or Japan, but those countries are actually in the minority of large Democracies..  And the UN is entirely worthless as a Military force.

El pistolero7 wrote:

About religion:
I Follow GOD, The divine rules and the holy ghost.
I dont follow priests, nuns, reverends or religious ppl at all , I respect and listen to them, but I have always the final word . Like i said: Dont be a sheep under human flesh , only Under GOD.

And u might discuss the Holy Books, As the Bible: Have u red it? Its a good book 
I read it and get info, but the main info i receive is from above or u might say the Holy Ghost.
The credability of the Bible u might argue : And i say this: Read it and then ask the questions and getting on the conclusions. Because u seem to judge it without having red it. "dont judge a book by its cover".
Actually, I have read a substantial portion of the Bible (I have not, however, read it cover to cover).  My view is unchanged.  I have not, upon reading the Bible, been inspired by the Holy Ghost, and I still believe it to be the tool of men.  The Bible is full of contradictions, and a "Holy Man" can say it means just about anything he wants.  And most do.  I'm glad you don't follow the Clergy, because I trust them less than I trust politicians.  As Diderot said, "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
2006-03-06 07:31:48
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6786

El pistolero7 wrote:

U should take example in the Great American Muslim "Muhammad Ali" and his words:
Why should i travel thousands of miles to go and kill Poor innocent ppl in vietnam for a government that doesnt give a damn to my ppl.I rather be facing a Machine gun then betraying ALLAH and his word.
And U know his been around .....here u got a guy, facing the hole establishment for his believes
and knowing he did not believe what was put in front of him by the govertment, And they punish him......
Well enough said:...
"So says the Lord" :, cursed the man who puts his faith on humans and trust on human power and faces
away from the Lord
He becomes like a  "Bush in the desert" and will never see the "good" coming.
He shall "live" in" burned" areas" , saltgrounds, "where nobody can live"
Blessed the man who puts his trust on the Lord and holehearty trust on him
He becomes a tree planted near water, it streches its roots towards the stream
It has nothing to fear from the heat, the leaves are always green
It doesnt get anxious on dry times, never ceases to give fruit...
ROMANS 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

That explains why he was jailed.
2006-03-06 07:48:43
DarkObsidian
Member
+6|6645|Arizona, USA
Right on Cougar.
Thanks for serving our great country man, i'll be returning the favor in 2 years.
2006-03-06 08:08:06
Nachox2
Member
+0|6636
I think few people realize there is more to politics than meets the eye. Always. I think this war against terrorism and for human rights finds takers amongst the ignorant.

I believe that the biggest human rights violators in the world are N Korea and China. However, the USA seems to ignore it, primarily because they can nuke us back.

So attacking the weak and ignoring the stronger evils makes the US a cowardly nation. I think its laughable that we call the middle east cowards for doing what they can to protect their homes, and their families. This isnt the first time that mighty armies were beaten back by a determined few( read napolean, hitler, vietnam).

Live and let live, all peoples ultimately pursue happiness, so we shouldnt force ours on others.
2006-03-06 08:25:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Marconius wrote:

No one gives a damn if you or the rest of the world are getting sick of hearing news stories from the Middle East.  The point is they live here on this planet too, and have every right to be here.  So many countries have tried to take advantage of that area it's left them in a completely ravaged and wasted state.
What we DON'T need to proliferate around is ignorance and intolerance...all that induces culture clashing from both sides of this conflict.

10.  Osama only seems to pop up any time the Bush administration is in trouble.  Looking back on how many ties the Bush family has with the bin Laden family, I don't have a hard time at all to believe that they are in cahoots.

9.  Syria didn't do what?  Explain more, and realize that every country happens to harbor terrorists/funds terrorist cells in some way or another.  The heightened awareness and over-proportioning of Islamic terrorists just comes from all the spinning the mass media has put on everything leading up to and revolving around our Iraq Invasion.  In this "War on Terrorism," we've somehow neglected to go after other terrorist cells in other countries, i.e., Aum Shinrikyo in Japan, the IRA in Ireland, etc...

8.  By your account, once again it's media spin.  Nothing to do with the Middle East at all other than journalists blowing everything out of proportion. 

7.  What the fuck else are they going to do?!  Actually TRY to take on the world's Largest military force with their soviet weapons and overall lack of training (compared to our forces)?  You've underestimated them...if you think that they are afraid of the US Forces and will just come out surrendering, you're wrong.  They have an agenda of their own, and will have to do anything other than surrendering to get it done.  It's a fear factor.  Random people getting kidnapped makes it seem like no foreigners are safe when entering Iraq, and it also means that the Insurgents are still very serious about their cause.

6.  Right...yell "BOMB" in any American mall and watch all the Americans just give up and go "Well shit...looks like I'm dead!"  Shit happens, and even moreso in an area ravaged by fighting and random bombings.  People like to live, asshole, and are usually inclined to save themselves if a threat arises, no matter what the consequences are of them trying to save themselves/their family.

5.  Once again, the countries have been so economically strained from corrupt dictatorships and outside governments trying to control all of their resources, a vast majority of the population in the Middle East is stuck in poverty.  You obviously don't understand the strife that they have gone through, and are enduring now because we decided to occupy their country.

4.  One way of them fighting back.  It's too bad they've had to resort to it, and it always results in more innocent people dead, but this ties right back into #7.

3.  The Middle East is governed by a collection of Theocracies.  It's what happens when religion interweaves itself with government and politics.  You also have collections of radical Imams who are teaching young, disenfranchised youths the ideas of their ideal situation, resulting in the suicide bombings and figuring out ways to attack the US invaders without getting completely wiped out and to hopefully cause their retreat.

2.  Iran's government definitely does not reflect the views and opinions of the majority of the rest of Iran.  It's now up to the younger and growing citizens of Iran to cause dissent against the views and wishes of their government in the hopes that nothing will escalate in the hatred against the US.

1.  This line of thinking is only going to get more and more people killed with no resolve.

It's not the US's decision as to who gets to live here in the world.  We aren't the World Police.  We aren't a Hegemony, for fucks sake.  We are a large country that's confused, trying to deal with problems at home while the elected governing administration decides to meddle with world affairs hell-bent on getting their own agenda up and running.  It's now up to the rest of the world to urge diplomacy and tolerance, but I see it's too late to tide you over towards tolerance. 
You'd rather just go over there and slaughter every last one of them to get your point made that "we are better in every way!"
Gee, so all we needed to do was mind our own business all these years and we would be living in peace and harmony under the TOLERANCES of HITLER, TOJO, MUSSELINI, STALIN, now BIN LADEN, KIM JONG and SADAM. DAMN IT, why can't we Americans mind our own business and stop meddling in everyone elses affairs? THE HARD COLD FACT IS..........IF IT WASN'T FOR AMERICA GETTING INVOLVED IN WORLD AFFAIRS AND FIGHTING FOR ALL THOSE THAT CAN"T FIGHT FOR THEMSELVES...YOU CHARMING PEOPLE WOULDN"T BE ABLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM  TRYING TO ARGUE THAT AMERICA IS AN EVIL EMPIRE.

I promise you all this, if Americas grandfathers knew how ungrateful the world has become to all of their sacrafices, they would beg for a second chance and let all europeans speak german and all of the far east speak japanese....As it is now most Americans don't want to be involved anymore than you want us involved.the reason is, you all take what AMERICA offers then stab us in the back with rhetoric.

I wish we would have just let the NAZI flag fly over all of your countries, then AMERICA wouldn't have to listen to all of your "AMERICA IS A TERRORIST COUNTRY and GEORGE BUSH IS A TERRORIST", bullshit !!!!!

You want us out of the world affairs??!!!..........Watch what you wish for, you might just get it.....Oh and while we are minding our own business, would you european union assholes do something about IRAN and their nukes??......We will be trying to get some sleep over here and don't really wanna be disturbed..THX..

P.S. Try and handle it without surrendering your countries this time..............Much appreciated
2006-03-06 08:32:32
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Nachox2 wrote:

I think few people realize there is more to politics than meets the eye. Always. I think this war against terrorism and for human rights finds takers amongst the ignorant.

I believe that the biggest human rights violators in the world are N Korea and China. However, the USA seems to ignore it, primarily because they can nuke us back.

So attacking the weak and ignoring the stronger evils makes the US a cowardly nation. I think its laughable that we call the middle east cowards for doing what they can to protect their homes, and their families. This isnt the first time that mighty armies were beaten back by a determined few( read napolean, hitler, vietnam).

Live and let live, all peoples ultimately pursue happiness, so we shouldnt force ours on others.
Problem is...............their homes and families are not in NY or Washington, or a field in Pennsylvania....
2006-03-06 08:38:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Marconius wrote:

Unpatriotic?  Dissent is the very nature of patriotism.  What you are stuck in is Nationalism.  The "USA: Love it or leave it" attitude is direct Nationalism.  Don't believe me?  Check out what our forefathers had to say about it.

What you've just caught yourself doing is criticising me without even contemplating my source.  I HAVE thought about it, plus I've read the report.  You have absolutely no say on the issue as you haven't read it, so stop criticising me until you've read it for yourself.  And for everything else I have said regarding the current assholes in power, just do a little googling and fact checking before claiming that I am "unpatriotic" in the ways of my thinking.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH the Internet...........the ONE and TRUE reliable source..........I don't question your patriotism, my heartache is ............We have men and women fighting for us and all freedom loving people, disect all of this when we have won, history will judge us for good or bad.......We do not need to be showing dissent or division amoungst us during a time of war. Our troops deserve unification behind them not dissent.

Thanks Marconius
2006-03-06 08:45:52
Nachox2
Member
+0|6636
quote: Problem is...............their homes and families are not in NY or Washington, or a field in Pennsylvania

well then deal with afghanistan, not iraq?
2006-03-06 08:47:52
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|6773|Dallas

panic.fo wrote:

10. Osama Bin Laden made a video tape.  Let me guess....he said he was going to attack the US soon.  Yeah, we know, he said that in the last 10 tapes he made.  Shut the fuck up and do something or stop making these shitty video tapes with your old ass 1989 Canon Video Recorder.  You can carry around a dialysis machine but not a camera that’s worth a shit?  No wonder you live in a cave.
Talking smack to Osama on an internet forum.. You're our hero!
And unfortunately continuing a tragic trend in the world.. Americans turning everything into a mindless "talking shit" session.. Way to go heightening the level of conversation.


9. Syria says they didn't do it.  Bullshit, yes you did.  Hariff threatened your government and made you lose ground physically and politically.  Syria is known for being a major contributor of terrorists in Iraq, imposing them selves on Lebanon, as well as being on of the tag team nations that got the bright idea to attack Israel and get their ass kicked, and to top it all off....the Syrian president meets with that Iranian jackass of a president at the HEIGHT of his international deboggle.  But Syria wonders...."Why does everyone think we did it?"
You think they would admit it openly? Maybe they aren't that stupid afterall..


8. "BRUTAL FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!"  No, there isn't.  Maybe every now and then, but 90% of the time it's some Afghani equivalent of a redneck sitting on a big hill and lobbing about a dozen mortars onto a base.  Then he runs away and gets wasted by either a) Convoy of Security Police. b) Fast response choppers, or c) the base just flat out opens up on his hillside and turns his body into mincemeat.  These un-organized amateurs are just plain stupid and useless.  I've been there, I've seen this, and I have friends there now.  It's pathetic.
Perhaps the problem is more your media than anything else?
Maybe if they did some actually useful reporting on the sorry-ass state of your own country you wouldn't be annoyed at people who believe they're defending their homes against a hostile imperialistic army. Yes that means you.


7.  "Terrorists take another hostage".  How fucking stupid are these people?  Ok, let’s say you want something, whats the best way to get it?  I know!!  Lets kidnap an unarmed undefended female American journalist who has no power or political pull and we will demand the release of 15 terrorists or we will behead her!!!  DUMBASSES!!!  NO WONDER YOU LIVE IN THE DESERT!!!
Desperate acts of desperate people. Maybe if you idiots stayed at home instead of starting an illegal, offensive war against a 3rd world country based on lies and deceit it wouldn't have come to this.
Oh and way to go sidelining the UN, arguably modern civilisation's greatest achievement..


6. Stampedes.  I recall from memory at least 4 stampedes in the Middle East last year.  Are you people to ignorant to possibly spread out a little bit?  Maybe even go to these places at different times or take a different way there?  Also, if someone yells "BOMB", don't run, you’re already dead.  I heard the stampede at the Mecca pilgrimage was caused because some tripped over some misplaced luggage.   ......*sigh*
Mass congregation is not unique to the middle east buddy.. Similar accidents have happened in south east asia, the US and europe before.


5. Everything is always worse in the Middle East.  Anyone here about the ferry that sank with 1300 people on it?  WTF kind of ferry is that?  That’s almost the same as the Titanic sinking and all this is,...is a fucking ferry!!  Their worse than Mexicans!  If you wreck into a van on a Texas interstate you may accidentally kill 8 illegal immigrants, crash into a van in the Middle East and your either going to explode or kill at least 30 of them.
Wtf are you stupid? Accidents like these ALSO happen outside of the middle east. A few years back a ferry sank on its way from Sweden to Estonia if my memory serves correctly.
Sit down and shut up.

4. Suicide Bombers.  Dumbest...idea....ever.  Kill 2 Americans and 27 Iraqis.  Those are great odds.  You fucking people.
I'll give you this one.. Bad idea but thenagain their "bible" says it's a good thing so I can see where their incentive comes from..
Most of the time it's parents or cynical recruiters that send their, often dimwitted, children/recruits to die.
So the smart ones are actually not so stupid as to do it themselves..
And it's not like all of them do it so "You fucking people" is a moronic generalization.
Kinda like saying "All americans are warcriminals" when only a few hundred thousand of you actually are..

3.  "Our religion is better than your religion."  I'm getting real sick of that shit.  Every time you hear from anyone in the middle east of importance it's the same old shit "America is the infidel, Mohammed this Allah that, Allah supports us and not you blah blah blah"  Take you radical religious bullshit and cram it up your asses!!  Where was Allah when two of your "radical regimes" were toppled in under a year?  I guess it is Allah who forces you to hide in caves and hide your faces under turbans when you have innocent journalists and contractors trying to rebuild your shitty joke of a country, held hostage in a basement.  You are cowards.  If they want to bring the religion thing into all the time, FINE!  My religion just kicked the shit out of your religion.
Maybe if you had any idea of what your government has been upto these past few decades you wouldn't post such a stupid and racist comment..
You're the ones who are f'ing with them and you wonder why they call you infidels? I don't.. and neither does the rest of the western world..
Get a f'ing clue or shut up.

2.  Iran.  Enough said.  Keep being a radical extremist jackass and see what happens.  Iran as opposed to Iraq actually has the support of the UN and EU as far as the ass whippin he is steering his people towards.  Keep it up, I might just have to re-enlist so I can can come over and stick my size 14 Cochran Marauder up your ass.
Again with the talking smack.. How old were you again?
Again.. If you had any clue as to why things are as they are in Iran, maybe you would refrain from exposing yourself as a complete smacktard.
Your government created the present Irani form of government buddy.. "how?" you ask? READ A BOOK ONCE IN AWHILE!

1. Middle Eastern people in general.  You people demand the respect of the world yet you burn flags and kill people over a FUCKING CARTOON!!!  GET OVER IT!!  You elect a terrorist party to government in Palestine and then ask for aid?  Shut up.  You bomb your own civilians and murder innocent people in the name of your Holy War?  Idiots!  Stampedes, bombings, riots, endless protests over nothing, terrorist breeding and harboring, drug markets, etc etc etc YOU PEOPLE SUCK!  I couldn't imagine why ohh WHY anyone nation would want to go to war with you people.  Maybe because we're SICK OF YOU!
Again.. Going to war because you're sick of someone? WTF? You must be quite singly the stupidest specimen on the northern hemisphere!
Sit down and shut up if you can't keep up with how GROWNUPS ought to behave!

In closing of my rant and wonderful venting section I would just like to summarize.

People of the Middle East, your radical religious beliefs, your ignorant politics, your lack of discipline and moral, social and common sense and frankly, just you in general ALL SUCK.  You don't deserve to breath.

Coug Out.
Do us all a favour and get off the internet! NOW! Kthnxbye
No.
2006-03-06 09:15:47
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6702|San Francisco

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Unpatriotic?  Dissent is the very nature of patriotism.  What you are stuck in is Nationalism.  The "USA: Love it or leave it" attitude is direct Nationalism.  Don't believe me?  Check out what our forefathers had to say about it.

What you've just caught yourself doing is criticising me without even contemplating my source.  I HAVE thought about it, plus I've read the report.  You have absolutely no say on the issue as you haven't read it, so stop criticising me until you've read it for yourself.  And for everything else I have said regarding the current assholes in power, just do a little googling and fact checking before claiming that I am "unpatriotic" in the ways of my thinking.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH the Internet...........the ONE and TRUE reliable source..........I don't question your patriotism, my heartache is ............We have men and women fighting for us and all freedom loving people, disect all of this when we have won, history will judge us for good or bad.......We do not need to be showing dissent or division amoungst us during a time of war. Our troops deserve unification behind them not dissent.

Thanks Marconius
You're quite welcome.  Yes, the internet...it seems to be the medium that we are using to discuss topics with one another, and thus sources will be cited on the internet.  If I cite books, letters, or essays, the chance of you actually heading over to the library to read them for yourself greatly diminishes.  Google around a bit to fact check.

The troops need to be supported, but this "war" absolutely does NOT need to be supported.  That is still Nationalist thinking.  I will dissent because I strongly believe that we shouldn't have gone to war, and now our soldiers are dying for the sole reason of advancing the dangerous agenda/manifest destiny of the current administration.  Their actions have been ordered with absolutely no tolerance of the culture in the Middle East, and the twisting and turning of information reaching the media to come back to all of us have turned the least thinking of all of us into considering any Muslim a threat.

And what the flying fuck were you talking about in your reply to my initial post?  Were you addressing me or the others reading this forum?  If you've done any bit of researching into what the CIA has gotten into since WWII, you'll probably wish we hadn't tried to control every part of the globe at once...
2006-03-06 09:23:32
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Nachox2 wrote:

quote: Problem is...............their homes and families are not in NY or Washington, or a field in Pennsylvania

well then deal with afghanistan, not iraq?
We are in both.............Iraq was not only attacked by America for its ties to terrorism, but also.......It had broken the resolutions it agreed upon 15 years go for peace.......resolutions set forth by the UN....We all seem to be forgetting that little bit of info
2006-03-06 09:35:22
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Marconius wrote:

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Unpatriotic?  Dissent is the very nature of patriotism.  What you are stuck in is Nationalism.  The "USA: Love it or leave it" attitude is direct Nationalism.  Don't believe me?  Check out what our forefathers had to say about it.

What you've just caught yourself doing is criticising me without even contemplating my source.  I HAVE thought about it, plus I've read the report.  You have absolutely no say on the issue as you haven't read it, so stop criticising me until you've read it for yourself.  And for everything else I have said regarding the current assholes in power, just do a little googling and fact checking before claiming that I am "unpatriotic" in the ways of my thinking.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH the Internet...........the ONE and TRUE reliable source..........I don't question your patriotism, my heartache is ............We have men and women fighting for us and all freedom loving people, disect all of this when we have won, history will judge us for good or bad.......We do not need to be showing dissent or division amoungst us during a time of war. Our troops deserve unification behind them not dissent.

Thanks Marconius
You're quite welcome.  Yes, the internet...it seems to be the medium that we are using to discuss topics with one another, and thus sources will be cited on the internet.  If I cite books, letters, or essays, the chance of you actually heading over to the library to read them for yourself greatly diminishes.  Google around a bit to fact check.

The troops need to be supported, but this "war" absolutely does NOT need to be supported.  That is still Nationalist thinking.  I will dissent because I strongly believe that we shouldn't have gone to war, and now our soldiers are dying for the sole reason of advancing the dangerous agenda/manifest destiny of the current administration.  Their actions have been ordered with absolutely no tolerance of the culture in the Middle East, and the twisting and turning of information reaching the media to come back to all of us have turned the least thinking of all of us into considering any Muslim a threat.

And what the flying fuck were you talking about in your reply to my initial post?  Were you addressing me or the others reading this forum?  If you've done any bit of researching into what the CIA has gotten into since WWII, you'll probably wish we hadn't tried to control every part of the globe at once...
I was addressing your comments, but in general, all of those that think all America does is stiff arm the rest of the world.....

As far as the CIA goes.....Along with your research about how terrible and ghestopo like they are.......did you happen to come across any info along the lines of terrorism that their "meddling" might have prevented??

If you want to research dirt on the internet, I am sure you can find I site out there that will give you all the digs on Mother Teresa that you want to build a case against her as well....

America is not perfect...our country is strong enough to air our dirty laundry for the world to critique everyday...but it baffles me how we are such a bad country, yet people are dying, literally, just to try and live here and escape whatever hardships they face in their own countries....hmmmmmmmmmm
2006-03-06 09:59:12
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6767|MA, USA

Nachox2 wrote:

I think few people realize there is more to politics than meets the eye. Always. I think this war against terrorism and for human rights finds takers amongst the ignorant.
Odd, I think people who say we shouldn't fight those who attack us are ignorant.  An argument can be made against the war in Iraq, but lots of arguments can be made for it as well.  It probably would have been best to label Iraq as a separate issue from the war on terror; but the mislabelling doesn't justify your monstrously silly generalization.

Nachox2 wrote:

I believe that the biggest human rights violators in the world are N Korea and China. However, the USA seems to ignore it, primarily because they can nuke us back.  So attacking the weak and ignoring the stronger evils makes the US a cowardly nation.
Your comments are based on several false premises: 1) That warfare should be fair; 2) That the US fights because they are some kind of global bully; 3) That the US fights to right wrongs; 4) That the US is cowardly and never fights strong nations.

I'll address each of your false premises, but the central fact of which you are woefully ignorant is this: "War is the continuation of foreign policy by other means."  It was said by Clausewicz and it is absolutely true.

1) As far as attacking the weak goes, if a state has a foreign policy objective vis a vis a country, and is willing to go to war over it,  are you suggesting they shouldn't if the country is weaker, because it isn't fair?  I've seen some stupid things implied on this forum, but if that is what you are saying, that really takes the cake.  You see, the foreign policy objective doesn't go away because the enemy is weak.

2&3)  War is used to acheive foreign policy objectives when diplomacy fails - that's it.  A nation can be the worst in the world, but the US won't fight with that nation if it doesn't have a foreign policy objective there.  Most people are too dim to remember, but it was Bush's stated foreign policy, even before he was elected, to deal with Iraq.  Diplomacy had been given over a decade with respect to Iraq, I think it is safe to say that it had failed.

4) There was this little thing back in the 1950s called the Korean war, during which, the US and its allies were unable to prevail against the Chinese and the North Koreans.  Now, why haven't we gone back since then?  Because we couldn't win in the 50s, when we had nuclear weapons and they didn't, it wouldn't be smart to fight again when their military is drastically improved, and they now have quite a few nukes of their own.  You see, back in the 50s, MacArthur was fired because Truman didn't like his insistance on the use of Nuclear weapons (once in a while a politician does the right thing).  Given that we couldn't win in the 50s without Nuclear weapons, and that now such a battle might involve global thermonuclear war, our leaders decline to re-open the conflict.  That isn't cowardice, that is prudence.  Then, as now, the use of Nuclear Weapons is bad.  Truman knew this.  To start a 'fair' conflict, against a strong nation, that would almost certainly involve an intercontinental nuclear exchange, (as you seem to think we should to prove our valor,) is stupid. 

Moving on: More recently, during first Gulf war, Iraq had the 5th largest army in the world, and no nuclear weapons.  It was far from certain, at the time, that we would get off as lightly on the ground as we did (I am not suggesting that anyone thought we would not win, just that many thought we would have had a lot more casualties).  Seriously, that is about as big a fight as reasonably could be engaged in without starting a worldwide nuclear exchange.  So much for the colossally idiotic notion that the US is a cowardly state.  I think you need an interlocutor between your brain and your mouth (or, in this case hands), because you seem to speak (type) without actually considering what you are saying (typing).

Nachox2 wrote:

I think its laughable that we call the middle east cowards for doing what they can to protect their homes, and their families.
Someone has already made this point, but I'll hammer it home:  Please explain to me how the 9/11 attacks were made in defense of anyone's homeland?

Nachox2 wrote:

Live and let live, all peoples ultimately pursue happiness, so we shouldnt force ours on others.
Here's the problem with the blissfully naive pacifist ideal:  Some people's pursuit of happiness involves making others miserable.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-03-06 10:02:47)

2006-03-06 10:06:01
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6767|MA, USA
Cougar:

Dude, you know you could have done this:

Cougar wrote:

panic.fo wrote:

Do us all a favour and get off the internet! NOW! Kthnxbye
No.
And saved a lot of space.
2006-03-06 10:42:14
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Marconius wrote:

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Unpatriotic?  Dissent is the very nature of patriotism.  What you are stuck in is Nationalism.  The "USA: Love it or leave it" attitude is direct Nationalism.  Don't believe me?  Check out what our forefathers had to say about it.

What you've just caught yourself doing is criticising me without even contemplating my source.  I HAVE thought about it, plus I've read the report.  You have absolutely no say on the issue as you haven't read it, so stop criticising me until you've read it for yourself.  And for everything else I have said regarding the current assholes in power, just do a little googling and fact checking before claiming that I am "unpatriotic" in the ways of my thinking.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH the Internet...........the ONE and TRUE reliable source..........I don't question your patriotism, my heartache is ............We have men and women fighting for us and all freedom loving people, disect all of this when we have won, history will judge us for good or bad.......We do not need to be showing dissent or division amoungst us during a time of war. Our troops deserve unification behind them not dissent.

Thanks Marconius
You're quite welcome.  Yes, the internet...it seems to be the medium that we are using to discuss topics with one another, and thus sources will be cited on the internet.  If I cite books, letters, or essays, the chance of you actually heading over to the library to read them for yourself greatly diminishes.  Google around a bit to fact check.

The troops need to be supported, but this "war" absolutely does NOT need to be supported.  That is still Nationalist thinking.  I will dissent because I strongly believe that we shouldn't have gone to war, and now our soldiers are dying for the sole reason of advancing the dangerous agenda/manifest destiny of the current administration.  Their actions have been ordered with absolutely no tolerance of the culture in the Middle East, and the twisting and turning of information reaching the media to come back to all of us have turned the least thinking of all of us into considering any Muslim a threat.

And what the flying fuck were you talking about in your reply to my initial post?  Were you addressing me or the others reading this forum?  If you've done any bit of researching into what the CIA has gotten into since WWII, you'll probably wish we hadn't tried to control every part of the globe at once...
Also, please do not preach to me about tolerance..........kill all infidals, all the beheadings, kidnappings, suicide bombings all over the world.......violence and murder over some cartoons......WW3 OVER A CARTOON!!!!!!.......but............American soldiers put a burlap bag over a Muslims head and snap a few pictures and we are war criminals and the whole world is outraged at our inhumanity LMAO........Marconius, your viewpoint on your own country is  puzzling.

And............an internet source, like all sources, is only as good as what you already KNOW to be true
2006-03-06 11:21:04
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|6773|Dallas
Why can't we all just get along?
2006-03-06 12:59:30
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6846
If Bush really did set up all this stuff to push some agenda of goverment control, then what happens if a Dem gets The White house next election ?

Conservative repulicans secretly and remotely run the contry from some bunker somewhere ?
2006-03-06 13:08:35
Longbow
Member
+163|6655|Odessa, Ukraine
Cougar
They just want America to leave their land , remember Afganistan ...
We cannot understand Middle East , they have their relegion , traditions , etc .
2006-03-06 13:35:53
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6660|USA

Longbow wrote:

Cougar
They just want America to leave their land , remember Afganistan ...
We cannot understand Middle East , they have their relegion , traditions , etc .
I know your response was to Cougar  but they were all behind us to quelch Sadam......AND nobody wants us out of IRAQ more than we do. It seems pretty stupid to leave their country when there is no effective govt. in place. We are not going to leave that country to fall into the hands of a terroristic leader.

We cannot understand the Middle East and their culture, no greater truth has been spoken in this forum. It isn't for us to understand a culture that is as destructive as they have been behaving, all in the name of peace.

Let us also not forget, this bullshit has been going on 3000 years before the US was even a country, so don't blame us for all the turmoil. If you MUST blame America for something, blame us for having the courage to stand up to this shit and say enough!!! you might now ask why is it our business? Well the answer to that is simple: Because the world is coming closer together, our economies are dependant on each other, and none of us should condone this behavior or live in a world of fear and terrorism.

History has shown us, that ANY country that has asked America for help has gotten it. America is the most generous country in history. After war, America does not conquer, it helps to rebuild countries destroyed by war. Even those countries we considered enemies at the time. then we go home.
2006-03-06 15:01:46
El pistolero7
Member
+0|6643
Down "under" man: Sparky
Can you lower urself any lower?, You should make a stand about the topics, instead of making comments
about a guys name.
but i see you let other guys do the battles for you. That would be very respected in the army.
I see you use the name "Rambo". I doubt Rambo ever had let lower himself to that level.
Now you have dirtyed his name.Maybe you dont deserve that name.
About being pwnd:
If im being pwnd, then the holy words are being pwnd,therefore God is being pwnd.
And i hardly believe GOD is being pwnd.
So if this divine believes happens to be truth witch i believe in holehearted
U will PWND urself in reallife....

About the name El Pistolero:.
It means The Gunman or The Pistolman in Spanish.
And if we use ancient languages like Arameic or Hebrew: It can be translated :
Gunman from GOD
2006-03-06 17:26:47
El pistolero7
Member
+0|6643
Wannabe Tank:
                    You said it.
                    I see you read ur Bible :
                    Yes ,thats explains it .
                    "He who rebels against the Authority will bring judgement on themselves".
                    But in this case its "very" very"special: He did that in order to save lives:His and others.
                    And thats what GOD wants of ppl in his creation: Respecting and saving life, and of course following the  laws.And when you do that the "Rulers will hold nothing against you."Sure Muhammad Ali was punished for what he did, but it was nothing compare to what he did., Better that punishment than taking human lives. Remember all human beings have their history, And what comes around on them is a matter between GOD and them.
                    For example. Here in Sweden we got ordinary ppl and preachers hiding refugees from the Government.
                    According to the government they are not wanted and kick them back for several causes, but most of they time they are wrong and kick out whole families which comes from conflict areas or misery.
                    So this noble ppl hide them for the cause of respecting and saving human life.
                   Another example is the ppl who saved Jews and not wanted ppl from the NAZIS in ww2
                   They did this noble cause : for the respect of human life and risking their own lifes in rebelling the government.
Remember the 2 GREATEST commandments of GOD:
                                                                             1: You shall Love the Lord thy GOD
                                                                              with all you heart ,with all your soul and with
                                                                              all your mind.
                                                                             2: You should love thy neighbour as yourself...
2006-03-06 20:37:33
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6846
Can we go back in time ..

Implement plan B.

The homeland for the Jews becomes Madagascar.

Cheap oil.

Read about Arabs in National geographic and Then only if you want to.

Who lives in Madagascar ? Hindus? would they be pissed ? Nooooo !

Everyone is happy.

Topic closed

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