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2009-08-12 14:01:30
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6548
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8196974.stm

Any pretence that Russia are safeguarding the 'independence' of Abkhazia is now well and truly out the window, down the street and far, far away. The Russians have taken a leaf out of the western 'stay the course, wait until the foreign nation we are occupying can fend for itself' neo-imperialist nonsense and tattooed it on their foreheads. I'm all for Abkhazian independence but Russia planning to build their major naval base in the Crimea there, installing a string of presumably Russian-manned 'border-guard' bases, furnishing thousands of these 'independent' Abkhazians with Russian passports and promising to bankroll the tiny 'independent' state is annexation, pure and simple, in all but officialdom.

In short: Russia can quit complaining about any missile defence schemes in eastern Europe, any Western intervention where there really should not be any and any criticism of its quite blatant and brazen self-interested actions.

I suppose it's only a matter of time before China starts to overspill into other countries...
2009-08-12 14:04:11
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

If Abkhazia doesn't have a problem with it then how is it wrong?
2009-08-12 14:08:46
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6548

Macbeth wrote:

If Abkhazia doesn't have a problem with it then how is it wrong?
I thought they wanted independence? And there was a sizeable minority of Georgians there who could probably cope with being citizens of an independent Abkhazia but might not be so excited about being minions of the Kremlin. And didn't Russia accuse the US of overstepping the mark by placing a few missiles in the Czech Republic? Bit hypocritical given that Georgia is nominally a western ally.

I guess another strand of my own thoughts is that I now have very little respect for Abkhazians - a race of subservient weaklings it would seem with no meaningful interest in their own sovereignty.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-12 14:09:55)

2009-08-12 14:12:14
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

CameronPoe wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

If Abkhazia doesn't have a problem with it then how is it wrong?
I thought they wanted independence? And there was a sizeable minority of Georgians there who could probably cope with being citizens of an independent Abkhazia but might not be so excited about being minions of the Kremlin. And didn't Russia accuse the US of overstepping the mark by placing a few missiles in the Czech Republic? Bit hypocritical given that Georgia is nominally a western ally.

I guess another strand of my own thoughts is that I now have very little respect for Abkhazians - a race of subservient weaklings it would seem with no meaningful interest in their own sovereignty.
As for the Abkhazians I don't see what the hell they could do about it. They can't go to war with Russia, they can't ask the U.N. for help, they can't ask the U.S. or China to invade for them, I would call them subservient weaklings.
2009-08-12 15:03:34
Lai
Member
+186|6144

CameronPoe wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

If Abkhazia doesn't have a problem with it then how is it wrong?
I thought they wanted independence? And there was a sizeable minority of Georgians there who could probably cope with being citizens of an independent Abkhazia but might not be so excited about being minions of the Kremlin. And didn't Russia accuse the US of overstepping the mark by placing a few missiles in the Czech Republic? Bit hypocritical given that Georgia is nominally a western ally.

I guess another strand of my own thoughts is that I now have very little respect for Abkhazians - a race of subservient weaklings it would seem with no meaningful interest in their own sovereignty.
The Abkhazian have been accepting Russian passports for years, much to Tiblisi's disdain. They don't want independence, they want to be part of Russia, in which case they will gain some level of autonomy, in any case more than as a Georgian province. Abkhazia can be a Russian Federal state with its own elected president. If Russia decides to build a major port there, the region will boom. Also the region directly north of Abkhazia is thé tourist region for Russia, Abkhazia can serve as an extention. Sure, the Kremlin has its own agenda, but in between the Kremlin and the Abkhazians it is a win-win situation.

Regarding hypocracy towards nominal NATO allies; what is NATO doing here? We're picking out former Soviet countries on Russia's border and try to win them over to our sphere of influence regarding them as nominal allies. In reality we're using countries like Georgia and Ukraine just as hard as Russia uses Abkhazia. If they truly were our mateys, we would have stepped in, even though that would meant not so cold war with Russia, though Russia knows this and wouldn't have invaded Georgia in the first place if she thought we would.

Also let us not forget Saakashvili the Georgian oportunist, who felt himself supported by NATO and shelled his own people. Actually he was not that popular in Georgia at all and was sort of a dictator, untill the war broke out and he could play the hurt man and point fingers at Russia.
2009-08-12 15:16:50
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

Fuck I meant I wouldn't call them weaklings. God damn can't edit. -_-
2009-08-12 15:26:40
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6215|Escea

Macbeth wrote:

Fuck I meant I wouldn't call them weaklings. God damn can't edit. -_-
I've noticed that it seems allowing other countries into yours even for progression is considered a sign of weakness *shrugs*
2009-08-12 15:31:15
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6548

Lai wrote:

The Abkhazian have been accepting Russian passports for years, much to Tiblisi's disdain. They don't want independence, they want to be part of Russia, in which case they will gain some level of autonomy, in any case more than as a Georgian province. Abkhazia can be a Russian Federal state with its own elected president. If Russia decides to build a major port there, the region will boom. Also the region directly north of Abkhazia is thé tourist region for Russia, Abkhazia can serve as an extention. Sure, the Kremlin has its own agenda, but in between the Kremlin and the Abkhazians it is a win-win situation.

Regarding hypocracy towards nominal NATO allies; what is NATO doing here? We're picking out former Soviet countries on Russia's border and try to win them over to our sphere of influence regarding them as nominal allies. In reality we're using countries like Georgia and Ukraine just as hard as Russia uses Abkhazia. If they truly were our mateys, we would have stepped in, even though that would meant not so cold war with Russia, though Russia knows this and wouldn't have invaded Georgia in the first place if she thought we would.

Also let us not forget Saakashvili the Georgian oportunist, who felt himself supported by NATO and shelled his own people. Actually he was not that popular in Georgia at all and was sort of a dictator, untill the war broke out and he could play the hurt man and point fingers at Russia.
Why the pretence of Abkhaz 'independence'? Why not a joint Abkhaz-Russian statement that they have been subsumed into Russian? I don't think Abkhazia should be a part of Georgia but I will always regard a distinct ethno-linguistic nation as worthless if they sell their sovereingty down the river for a quick buck - whether that be to Western nations or to Russia or to China. I have very little respect for nations that allow foreign nations to site military facilities on their territory. If Abkhazia want to be part of Russia they should just man up and state as much.

For the record, I don't think NATO should be actively seeking members in the border regions of Russia. Each nation should come to NATO of their own volition and request membership, not at the behest of or through the coercion of others. My post is not a 'NATO are great, Saakashvili is God' post in the slightest.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-12 15:48:25)

2009-08-12 15:37:32
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6548

M.O.A.B wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Fuck I meant I wouldn't call them weaklings. God damn can't edit. -_-
I've noticed that it seems allowing other countries into yours even for progression is considered a sign of weakness *shrugs*
That would be a fair assessment yes. And then there are the countries that didn't allow or that did allow against the wishes of the masses....*shrugs*

Of course there's 'wanting short term help against a powerful aggressor', which is fine but selling your sovereignty is worthy of nothing more than deep disdain.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-12 15:40:49)

2009-08-13 00:25:19
Lai
Member
+186|6144

CameronPoe wrote:

Why the pretence of Abkhaz 'independence'?
Less global whining and you can see it more as a Abhkaz sovereign choice. Compared to their situation in Georgia they will acquire independence (imagined or not), be it within a federal structure. Also bear in mind that the Abkhazians themselves can't really state anything at all, as they lack the means of proper outside communication.

When the war was going on I was in France, so I bought a opinion paper. Somewhere in an interview a guy said something along the line of "Abhkazia and South Ossetia are Russia's payback for Kossovo, they'll do to us what we did to them". Imo, the guy was pretty much right. What I don't understand is why the one sided declaration of independence of Kossovo is all flowery and happy, while the Georgian casus is considered an infringement of the country's sovereignity.
2009-08-13 00:45:52
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6548

Lai wrote:

Less global whining and you can see it more as a Abhkaz sovereign choice. Compared to their situation in Georgia they will acquire independence (imagined or not), be it within a federal structure. Also bear in mind that the Abkhazians themselves can't really state anything at all, as they lack the means of proper outside communication.

When the war was going on I was in France, so I bought a opinion paper. Somewhere in an interview a guy said something along the line of "Abhkazia and South Ossetia are Russia's payback for Kossovo, they'll do to us what we did to them". Imo, the guy was pretty much right. What I don't understand is why the one sided declaration of independence of Kossovo is all flowery and happy, while the Georgian casus is considered an infringement of the country's sovereignity.
Personally I disagree with an independent Kosovo so the 'payback' line doesn't really influence my opinion one way or the other. The West shouldn't have supported a free Kosovo. My deep concern now is that Russia might stoke unrest in the likes of the Ukraine, where thousands of Russian blow-ins from the Soviet era move for an independent Eastern Ukraine with a capital in Donetsk. The same applies to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania but would obviously be far less likely.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-08-13 00:47:29)

 

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