Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6598|SE London

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Nope


lol.. I understand your idea but people are told that they are going to die, that they are cutting years off of their life.. they are ridiculed, embarrassed, and discriminated against. If that doesn't get people to change, a marginal increase in taxes won't do it neither.
Why then...  have the people of so many other countries in the First World done it?
You think it's because they are taxed? That is ridiculous. Most first word countries aren't that different in terms of lifestyle. You were talking about Japan and that is one of the exceptions. Their diet is much different than ours (lots of fish). They also walk and bike much more because of their population problems.
You are looking at it all wrong. The tax isn't a deterent for consumers, it's a deterent for manufacturers, fast food outlets etc.

Trans fats are used because they're cheap and easy. Give businesses a financial motive not to use them and they stop using them.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6598|SE London

FEOS wrote:

The bankruptcy myth has been debunked...repeatedly. Just more scare tactics used by one side to justify their agenda. No different than the other side using scare tactics to justify theirs.
What's been debunked? People become bankrupt from paying medical bills. It happens. The figures direct from the courts say it is the primary cause. Saying it's been debunked is pure folly.

A Harvard study by Dr Himmelstein states that 62% of bankruptcies in the US are healthcare related - when you look at the papers that supposedly debunk this paper (which is, I assume, what you are talking about), it's blatant they are completely mis-representing data with an agenda.

Here is Himmelstein's response to the paper that was published to counter his.
David Dranove and Michael Millenson seem determined to deny that financial fallout from illness pushes middle-class families into bankruptcy. Anxious to erase the headline that three-quarters of U.S. medical bankrupts had health insurance at the onset of their illnesses and the resulting spotlight on inadequate coverage and insurance cancellation practices, they ignore most of our data and misrepresent the rest. They dismiss families’ explanations of their difficulties and blame those ruined by illness for their own problems. However, the data from the bankruptcy courts are undeniable. Bankruptcies affect mainly middle-class, privately insured families, and about half are triggered, at least in part, by illnesses.
Read the papers and it becomes extremely obvious that Dranove and Millenson simply gloss over half the data, completely ignoring it - presumably because they have no answer to it. The way they ignore statements by the individuals and the court figures is also very telling about the accuracy of their "study".

Another thing silly articles like to try and use to "debunk" this paper is the total uninsured figures. The fact they haven't bothered to read the paper shows very much then, since most of the cases involve people with health insurance who have their policies revoked or are told they have inadequate coverage - which is another very central point to this debate.

But of course lots of stupid websites that don't read either paper like to post articles that claim it's all been debunked. I could publish a paper supposedly debunking something that there is mass media hysteria about and it would probably end up being cited in news articles of that calibre.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6565|San Diego, CA, USA
For three years when I didn't bother to buy myself health insurance (to save money - boy was I stupid), I was hospitalized for 3 days and got a bill for $10,000.  I then negotiated and got the bill reduced to $7,000 by paying the in full with cash.

$7,000 / (3 years * 12 months) = $194.44 / month

You can get nominal insurance for $88 / month through Blue Cross in California.  Not sure if they would had covered my stay though with that plan.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6691|Canberra, AUS

Harmor wrote:

For three years when I didn't bother to buy myself health insurance (to save money - boy was I stupid), I was hospitalized for 3 days and got a bill for $10,000.  I then negotiated and got the bill reduced to $7,000 by paying the in full with cash.

$7,000 / (3 years * 12 months) = $194.44 / month

You can get nominal insurance for $88 / month through Blue Cross in California.  Not sure if they would had covered my stay though with that plan.
The question is then, do you cover for stupidity or not?

Most places say yes, stupidity is not worth the potential wrecking of your life.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6428|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

The bankruptcy myth has been debunked...repeatedly. Just more scare tactics used by one side to justify their agenda. No different than the other side using scare tactics to justify theirs.
So no one goes bankrupt from medical bills?
Fewer than claimed. The numbers provided for "bankruptcy caused by medical bills" are flawed, as they use any bankruptcy where any amount of medical bills are claimed as debts, regardless of the actual percentage of overall debt claimed.

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/405 … s-debunked

There are plenty of other myths – like Mr. Rae’s argument that large numbers of Americans file for bankruptcy due to uninsured medical expenses. In 2006, Dranove and Millenson published a critique of this argument in the journal Health Affairs showing that uninsured medical expenses were cited in only 17 per cent of bankruptcy filings. Further, they found that medical expenses were only one of several reasons for bankruptcy cited in these cases. In fact, medical expenses accounted for only 12 to 13 per cent of unsecured debts among the small percentage of bankruptcy filers who cited medical expenses as one of several other reasons for their bankruptcy claim.

The implication of the medical bankruptcy myth in the U.S. is that it would not occur under a government-run health insurance system. But research commissioned by the Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy in 2006 showed that 15 per cent of bankrupt seniors in Canada cited medical reasons, including uninsured medical expenses, as the primary cause of bankruptcy. Furthermore, recent research published by the Fraser Institute shows that in 2006 and 2007, the only two comparable years on record, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada than in the U.S.
Clearly, Bert hasn't bothered to read beyond the initial claims that support his views. Yes, I'm sure that actually looking at the data vice just the claims is "operating with an agenda". Of course. Damn mathematics and facts with their agenda-driven nonsense.

And Himmelstein clearly doesn't have an agenda either, since he runs an advocacy group dedicated to a single-payer system.

I guess they're only negative agendas when they counter your personal views, eh, Bert?

Last edited by FEOS (2009-09-05 06:49:43)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6422|North Carolina
Well, I would guess that Canada's reason for why more seniors go bankrupt for medical reasons is because care isn't as open to private complementary insurance as it is in other countries like France.

In the WHO's rankings of medical systems, Canada is only 2 spots ahead of America, and this is likely because of this.

The most functional healthcare systems in terms of affordability allow people to buy complementary private insurance to cover what the government won't.

So, believe it or not, I still support the freedom of buying private insurance as additional coverage for individuals.  Generally speaking, the market functions well as a supplement to universal care -- it just doesn't work so well as the basis for care.

As with most things, the ideal is a balance of governmental intervention and privatization.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6618|132 and Bush

Bertster7 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Why then...  have the people of so many other countries in the First World done it?
You think it's because they are taxed? That is ridiculous. Most first word countries aren't that different in terms of lifestyle. You were talking about Japan and that is one of the exceptions. Their diet is much different than ours (lots of fish). They also walk and bike much more because of their population problems.
You are looking at it all wrong. The tax isn't a deterent for consumers, it's a deterent for manufacturers, fast food outlets etc.

Trans fats are used because they're cheap and easy. Give businesses a financial motive not to use them and they stop using them.
Most restaurants aren't using trans fats.

Selling healthier food to a customer that desires a healthier lifestyle is what has prompted fast food chains like KFC and McDonalds to cut back and do away with trans fat. Demand is the motivator, not a government forced price increase.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6422|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


You think it's because they are taxed? That is ridiculous. Most first word countries aren't that different in terms of lifestyle. You were talking about Japan and that is one of the exceptions. Their diet is much different than ours (lots of fish). They also walk and bike much more because of their population problems.
You are looking at it all wrong. The tax isn't a deterent for consumers, it's a deterent for manufacturers, fast food outlets etc.

Trans fats are used because they're cheap and easy. Give businesses a financial motive not to use them and they stop using them.
Most restaurants aren't using trans fats.

Selling healthier food to a customer that desires a healthier lifestyle is what has prompted fast food chains like KFC and McDonalds to cut back and do away with trans fat. Demand is the motivator, not a government forced price increase.
Perhaps, but...  none of these companies moved away from trans fats until NYC forced a trans fats ban citywide on many restaurants.  When a market that large imposes regulations, it can affect the rest of the market.

McDonald's likely expected future bans to occur throughout the U.S., and as a result of this, they made the necessary changes to anticipate this.

While I agree that the people informing themselves is more important than government intervention, intervention clearly can result in the same conclusion, market wise.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6618|132 and Bush

Yes they did. The ban was after most restaurants had already stopped. I'm pretty sure that was one of the talking point.. "It didn't matter anyways".

I'm simply saying that if risk of death and ridicule isn't going to change behavior, then a financial squeeze most likely wont neither.

Mcdonalds has been trying to shake the "eat here and you're gonna be fat" persona for a long time. A predicted ban did not make them change.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6565|San Diego, CA, USA
Wait til next week...they are going to ram this thing through.  Should be interesting to watch.

Oh, and don't forget about all the illegals getting benefits that we're paying for :-P  (And I'm not talking about Emergency care either).
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6422|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Yes they did. The ban was after most restaurants had already stopped. I'm pretty sure that was one of the talking point.. "It didn't matter anyways".

I'm simply saying that if risk of death and ridicule isn't going to change behavior, then a financial squeeze most likely wont neither.

Mcdonalds has been trying to shake the "eat here and you're gonna be fat" persona for a long time. A predicted ban did not make them change.
You don't think companies try to anticipate future restrictions?  I know my company definitely does.  Granted, we're in the chemical industry, but I don't see why food preparation would be different in mindset.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6618|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Yes they did. The ban was after most restaurants had already stopped. I'm pretty sure that was one of the talking point.. "It didn't matter anyways".

I'm simply saying that if risk of death and ridicule isn't going to change behavior, then a financial squeeze most likely wont neither.

Mcdonalds has been trying to shake the "eat here and you're gonna be fat" persona for a long time. A predicted ban did not make them change.
You don't think companies try to anticipate future restrictions?  I know my company definitely does.  Granted, we're in the chemical industry, but I don't see why food preparation would be different in mindset.
There has been a push to sell a healthier image/product in the food industry for a long time now. It's why Kentucky Fried Chicken turned into KFC.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6422|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Yes they did. The ban was after most restaurants had already stopped. I'm pretty sure that was one of the talking point.. "It didn't matter anyways".

I'm simply saying that if risk of death and ridicule isn't going to change behavior, then a financial squeeze most likely wont neither.

Mcdonalds has been trying to shake the "eat here and you're gonna be fat" persona for a long time. A predicted ban did not make them change.
You don't think companies try to anticipate future restrictions?  I know my company definitely does.  Granted, we're in the chemical industry, but I don't see why food preparation would be different in mindset.
There has been a push to sell a healthier image/product in the food industry for a long time now. It's why Kentucky Fried Chicken turned into KFC.
True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6397|MN

Turquoise wrote:

True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
No it's not.

We switched to canola oil in our plant about 5 years ago.  Customer driven change.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6618|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You don't think companies try to anticipate future restrictions?  I know my company definitely does.  Granted, we're in the chemical industry, but I don't see why food preparation would be different in mindset.
There has been a push to sell a healthier image/product in the food industry for a long time now. It's why Kentucky Fried Chicken turned into KFC.
True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
I agree. But KFC is crap compared to Chick fil a.
http://www.foodfacts.info/blog/2008/10/ … ation.html
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6422|North Carolina

LividBovine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
No it's not.

We switched to canola oil in our plant about 5 years ago.  Customer driven change.
Fair enough, but again...  the grilled chicken really is better... 

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

There has been a push to sell a healthier image/product in the food industry for a long time now. It's why Kentucky Fried Chicken turned into KFC.
True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
I agree. But KFC is crap compared to Chick fil a.
http://www.foodfacts.info/blog/2008/10/ … ation.html
Definitely...  I love Chick Fil A, except for the fact that they aren't open on Sundays.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-09-05 21:22:23)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6618|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

True.  The grilled chicken really is better than the fried anyway.
I agree. But KFC is crap compared to Chick fil a.
http://www.foodfacts.info/blog/2008/10/ … ation.html
Definitely...  I love Chick Fil A, except for the fact that they aren't open on Sundays.
O shit that reminds me.. On the way from the hospital last week my parents sat in the drive through for like 5 minutes (on sunday) .. wth! They were looking forward to having something better than hospital food.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6123|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

In fact, medical expenses accounted for only 12 to 13 per cent of unsecured debts among the small percentage of bankruptcy filers who cited medical expenses as one of several other reasons for their bankruptcy claim.
Except it doesn't cover those who were unable to work because they were ill, and were ill because they couldn't pay their medical debts.
In that case medical debts would be small, but a cause of all their other debts.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6428|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

In fact, medical expenses accounted for only 12 to 13 per cent of unsecured debts among the small percentage of bankruptcy filers who cited medical expenses as one of several other reasons for their bankruptcy claim.
Except it doesn't cover those who were unable to work because they were ill, and were ill because they couldn't pay their medical debts.
In that case medical debts would be small, but a cause of all their other debts.
Yes it does.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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