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DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+791|6229|United States of America

SuperJail Warden wrote:

The queen is officially dead.
Wow, Liz Truss was doing that poorly?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+609|3264
I can already imagine the articles on NR about how classy the queen was and how tragic blah blah blah for society her death is. Going to have to scroll by a million articles by liberals and conservatives both trying to co-opt her memory even though she represented a political ideology almost alien to the modern world and in total reverse to America's founding ideas. Liberals will like how friendly she was and assume she was just like their grandma. Conservatives will see her as a hold over from the halcyon days before liberals ruined everything. "You can't make a queen like that today!"

I am already bored by the wall to wall coverage. I follow a wide range of media. I like variety. I don't want to see the same news story about a dead old lady. Doubly since this old lady wasn't even politically active or did much of anything aside from being a figurehead.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+669|5835|Washington St.
She was like 800 years old. I'm pretty sure they thought she was considered old when she oversaw the building of Pyramids.

I don't have any strong feelings towards her passing, but the fact that she's lived so long and seen so much is super interesting.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

Just between us, I'm pretty sure she just had to retire that id so that the mortals didn't get too suspicious.

People have been alive for less time than she was monarch. Nuts.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+609|3264
You know what will cheer people up in the U.K. and put an end to all that worrying about an energy crisis? A big state funeral. I even bet Elton John will be there.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

Aren't Americans stereotypically more enamoured of British royalty than actual Englishmen?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

Why Some People From Ireland, India Are Celebrating Queen's Death
https://www.newsweek.com/queen-elizabet … ic-1741243

Much of the world has reacted in sadness to the passing of Queen Elizabeth II but there are some people who are, in fact, celebrating.

People in countries formerly controlled by Britain, such as India, Ireland, Australia and Nigeria, were quick to point out the monarchy's role in the subjugation of their countries.
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+669|5835|Washington St.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Aren't Americans stereotypically more enamoured of British royalty than actual Englishmen?
Yeah it's like a hobby or something. I'm sure plenty of people from around the world are enamored with Trump even though he thinks they live in a "shithole".
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

A Russian gaming buddy was drooling over Trump early in his tenure. Started hearing less about it as time went on, and then not at all during COVID.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+609|3264
There is still a subset of Americans willing to die for Trump. (big lol) There are also plenty of Republicans willing to quietly vote for him. But I suspect there are many Americans who are very embarrassed to have been a part of all of that. Probably many red hats stashed in closets got thrown away in moves like 90's rave pants.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0269/7097/products/Wind-Pant_b574fae6-cba2-4d1d-affc-0c2640176078_1024x1024.png?v=1534457251
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

https://i.imgur.com/titshN1.jpeg
uziq
Member
+492|2996
scotland and ireland have got off for years with their underdog act.

scottish people don't like to be reminded that they joined the Union in the first place because they BANKRUPTED themselves trying to start a slave colony of their own in the New World. 250 years of moaning about 'english colonialists' lmao. the denial and delusion runs deep. try explaining to a scottish person that the british empire, the east india company in particular, had a very high preponderance of scottish administrators.

northern irish feel very strongly about being british. they sacrificed a lot, in the great war especially. again, try telling a scot that the majority of the 'colonial' settlers in ireland originally were ... scottish. lmfao.

may she R I P.

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX
IIRC The British emptied the scottish prisons and dumped the convicts in Ireland.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i agree with that about 90%, with some minor caveats. i wouldn't want to throw out every tradition or aspect of the class system.

the queen overall dispensed with her duties well, not much scandal or dirt clung to her, we certainly could have had much worse for one of the most consequential centuries in britain's history – like her son, for example.

bracketing off the immense privilege, she was also a model of public service and personification of old-fashioned ideas of duty. that's all gone and faded now like old crinoline. we live in an altogether more vulgar – more democratic – age. i'm not entirely glad to see that part of the world vanish forever.
Again, no problem with the queen as an individual.

The main problem with the class system is the expected deference at every level - its the reason we've been governed by privileged morons for centuries.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|2996

Dilbert_X wrote:

IIRC The British emptied the scottish prisons and dumped the convicts in Ireland.
no it was scottish lairds and landlords who took stacks of land in ireland.

the penal population was certainly part of the workforce, but the 'Ascendancy' and aristocratic landowners were majority ... scottish.

scotland is the most privately owned country on earth, in terms of land and real estate. and who owns the majority of the scottish land mass, the highlands in particular? ... ancestral scottish lairds.

but it's the big bad english wolf who are to blame for everything.

i have no qualms with arguments for independence and self-government. i am pro-devolution. but all this rhetoric and historical abuse, laying the blame for every iniquity and exploitation at the english, is just plain self-delusion.
uziq
Member
+492|2996

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

i agree with that about 90%, with some minor caveats. i wouldn't want to throw out every tradition or aspect of the class system.

the queen overall dispensed with her duties well, not much scandal or dirt clung to her, we certainly could have had much worse for one of the most consequential centuries in britain's history – like her son, for example.

bracketing off the immense privilege, she was also a model of public service and personification of old-fashioned ideas of duty. that's all gone and faded now like old crinoline. we live in an altogether more vulgar – more democratic – age. i'm not entirely glad to see that part of the world vanish forever.
Again, no problem with the queen as an individual.

The main problem with the class system is the expected deference at every level - its the reason we've been governed by privileged morons for centuries.
i don't disagree although it's a mixed bag in terms of governance.

the PPE oxford class aren't aristocrats, they're from inherited wealth and privilege but not due to the class system. most of them are new money and useful idiots chirrupting 'meritocracy'. can you name the last prime minister in UK history who was from a whiggish or aristocratic background? you'll have to go back to ww2 or before.

private schooling is an obvious social blight. it makes an abuse of the idea of a 'level playing field' in terms of first opportunity and an equal start in life. but most people at eton nowadays are rich russians and chinese, or banker's sons, not the sons of landed gentry. taking aim at the class system in its traditional form is a bit misguided.

the problem in modern societies like the UK is inequality, which is chiefly an economic question, not 'class' as a social phenomenon. the english class system is strangely, curiously antiquated. it sort of pre-dates the economic inequality we experience now. monied upper-middle class people can sail through life, that's true. but it's the money that talks, not social class per se. aristocrats and the 'upper' faction in the UK are deracinated and financially poor, in comparison.

i do think there's something to be said for vanishing ideals of noblesse oblige and duty. there is still such a thing in the UK as the country squire who takes his duty towards his estate and tenants quite seriously, and who busies himself with estate management and maintenance. it's a small but valuable part of the fabric of english culture. i wouldn't want to damn him because of vulgarians like boris johnson.

Last edited by uziq (2022-09-09 02:11:39)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

uziq wrote:

scotland and ireland have got off for years with their underdog act.

scottish people don't like to be reminded that they joined the Union in the first place because they BANKRUPTED themselves trying to start a slave colony of their own in the New World. 250 years of moaning about 'english colonialists' lmao. the denial and delusion runs deep. try explaining to a scottish person that the british empire, the east india company in particular, had a very high preponderance of scottish administrators.

northern irish feel very strongly about being british. they sacrificed a lot, in the great war especially. again, try telling a scot that the majority of the 'colonial' settlers in ireland originally were ... scottish. lmfao.

may she R I P.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-jus6AGHzQ
Personally, I don't feel a strong attraction or aversion for the British royal family. I get the people who are sad or glad though, or even indifferent, and feel like just letting people vibe with whatever they think of the passing of the queen in terms of her being a figurehead.

I'm going to be crushed under the weight of royalty docu/dramu recommends and random nostalgic reflections.
uziq
Member
+492|2996
to americans, the royal family exist on the same plane as the kardashians. it’s just a particularly glamorous form of celebrity. i can see why that would become tiresome very quickly. i don’t care at all for the kardashians myself.

but it’s hard to explain what a queen means in terms of symbol. an incarnation of a nation. she was around for 70 years. for most people she was as present as a grandmother in that capacity. every christmas families gather around the TV to hear her speech. every nation needs it’s rituals and symbols. she was in a very real sense a sort of ‘glue’ that kept a society together in an era when individualism, atomisation, and denial of the concept of society itself were the norm.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the PPE oxford class aren't aristocrats, they're from inherited wealth and privilege but not due to the class system. most of them are new money and useful idiots chirrupting 'meritocracy'. can you name the last prime minister in UK history who was from a whiggish or aristocratic background? you'll have to go back to ww2 or before.
But they're hangers on and social climbers, rubbing shoulders with aristocrats is enough to put them above everyone else, thats how the class system works, its why going to the right school is so important.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|2996
i think a large part of the UK's current ills are because of vulgarians in power, not aristocrats. it's been, to quote a harry enfield bit, all about 'MONEYYYY!' since the 1980s. post-thatcher you can hardly characterise the UK govt, or media, as being run by patrician upper-class twits. it's run by advertisers, PR men, media moguls, etc. the complexion of political life in the UK now is determined by paul dacre and rupert murdoch, people who are notably anti-Establishment, not aristocrats. you're taking aim at a phantasmal enemy that last exercised any real influence in Kipling's day.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,796|5650|eXtreme to the maX
But the vulgarians get to lord it over us because daddy sent them to the right school to rub shoulders with the nobs.

Aristocrats are nothings who had a rich daddy or granddaddy too, there's nothing special about them, they don't really have blue blood - they're just vulgarians whose origin stories are a little foggier.
They're as venal as anyone else, they can just hide it with money.

Their ancestors went after TEH MONEY!!!!! just as aggressively and ruthlessly as the robber barons of today, probably more so.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-09-09 04:57:48)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|2996
i'm not here thinking aristocrats are genuinely cut from better cloth or anything. i am not in awe of them.

but your characterisation is very two-dimensional. lots of aristocratic families got where they were through service and duty. military or civic or otherwise. they had a sense of 'noblesse oblige', as i mentioned above. it's a slightly different dynamic to the rich plutocrats who are looting the country nowadays.

in my ideal society egalitarianism would be the norm, of course. but you're tilting at windmills as if it's the peerage who are responsible for britain's problems. on the contrary, the house of lords has exercised a brake many times on the worst aspects of populism in the last few years. they tried to act in britain's best interests back when a bunch of 'robber barons' and city boys, farage et al, tried to drive us off a cliff by whipping up a populist frenzy.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,023|6316|USA

uziq wrote:

but it’s hard to explain what a queen means in terms of symbol. an incarnation of a nation. she was around for 70 years. for most people she was as present as a grandmother in that capacity. every christmas families gather around the TV to hear her speech. every nation needs it’s rituals and symbols. she was in a very real sense a sort of ‘glue’ that kept a society together in an era when individualism, atomisation, and denial of the concept of society itself were the norm.
I get it, and mentioned it's crazy to think she was queen for longer than some older people were alive, or for the entire lives of baby boomers. I brought up the celebrations in counterpoint to mourning. Who am I really to tell someone they aren't justified on a subjective level at feeling some satisfaction at the passing of the figurehead.

Imagine I'll hear from people who are still sour about Princess Diana, as well.
uziq
Member
+492|2996
the queen reigned for one-third of the duration that the USA has been a country. pree crazy.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+609|3264
I don't have strong republican feelings. I don't care one way or another about the queen.

I do think that as much as people shouldn't be made to feel bad about mourning her, the people celebrating her passing shouldn't be shamed either.

There's a contradiction that the Queen Stans need to fix. It is unclothe to toast to the death of a person. Was the queen a symbol and figurehead of a nation or simply an individual? If she is in fact a symbol of a nation, the groups celebrating the passing of their enemy's symbol are perfectly justified. Our country celebrated the killing of OBL, as much a symbol to those people as the queen is to the British.
...
She isn't my symbol nor do I hold funky feelings about the British. Have your national mourning. Let the Irish, Argentines, and a dozen other groups enjoy their time too.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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