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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

Not sure what you're calling non-sequitur.

Right so, speculation. If-then speculation, on my part, ten hours ago, that:

If: they weren't doing anything specific on set that required Baldwin to be handling a prop gun,
Then, hinging on the if: Baldwin was probably being a fool.

It's happened plenty of times, people goofing around with a gun they thought was safe, and then it goes off, or they pull the trigger thinking it's unloaded, and it goes off. I had then hoped to credit Baldwin with more sense, which is why the if/then stuff. If he wasn't, disregard the then. It's not like I'm defaming him on Big Social Media with thousands of followers anyway.

Articles have been coming out constantly since my post was made, and will probably keep coming out for quite awhile. What seems consistent is that production and the working environment was a bit of a mess.

The gun was supposed to be cold. It was called cold. I would hope that he was handling it in accordance to usual protocols while shooting a scene or getting ready to.

An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer on the set of "Rust" in New Mexico, court records released Friday show.

“Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court and obtained by the Associated Press.

Instead, the gun was loaded with live rounds, and when Baldwin pulled the trigger Thursday on the set of the Western, he killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Director Joel Souza, who was standing behind her, was wounded, the records said.
At the very least, this is a good argument for never trusting that a gun handed to you by someone who says it isn't loaded, isn't loaded.

Assistant director unaware gun was loaded with live rounds
What a chain.

When asked if the gun was loaded with a real bullet, the caller replied: “I don’t… I can’t tell you that… And this (expletive) AD that yelled at me at lunch – asking about revisions, this mother (expletive) – he’s supposed to check the guns, he’s responsible for what happens on the set.”
So what do you do when someone hands you a gun and tells you it's not loaded? How many hands did the prop get passed around, stating "cold," before finally reaching Alec Baldwin's?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

TBH I'm not even clear on if they were blanks or if an actual bullet was somehow chambered. I don't know where everyone was standing, if they were beyond the 7 meter minimum from the front of the muzzle. I just haven't seen all the details yet.
uziq
Member
+441|2624
i'm calling macbeth's raising of colin powell's spectre because alec baldwin gave a random girl some college money a 'non sequitur'. i don't know what the spontaneous or gratuitous charity of a film star has to do with the architect of the iraq war.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

probably a kid going to war inspiring college money from alec baldwin, connected to american wars, connected to colin powell. why it was brought up, i couldn't tell you.

at any rate, i think film actors and crews might be a bit more nervous about supposedly "cold" guns being handed to them for awhile. how many halyna hutchinses and brandon lees do we need before moviemakers get their shit together for good?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+529|2892
Alec Baldwin offing his coworker is a good example of why you should strive to not be a raging asshole all the time. No matter what really happened, a lot of people are going to suspect he was being an asshole or playing with the gun when he offed the girl.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

You can be an asshole (remember the time he called his 11 year old daughter a pig?), though you still do "everything to procedure" in an instance and then someone still dies in a horrible accident.

It does sound like a lot of things were taken for granted here. If I understand the story right, one guy said the gun was cold and then everyone just accepted that it was? I think there is something fundamentally wrong about how some sets handle prop guns. There should be multiple eyes checking a weapon before it's placed into the hands of an actor. Multiple eyes checking the ammunition as it's loaded, test-firing. Making sure that only the ammunition from the intended batch is loaded into the weapon. I realize this might come off as teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, that there are armorers in the industry who I would be embarrassed to talk guns with, but I can't help but think of what could have been done better in the wake of these accidents. Chiefly, better safety procedures and protocols, better communication.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+529|2892
Blank rounds and live rounds looks so much different that I will assume there was a conspiracy to get someone kill or hurt.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

How many stories are there of gun experts being involved in firearms accidents? I still think human error could be reduced by having more eyes and checks in the whole process. Small price to pay really for the world continuing to receive more gun-happy American movies.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

Admittedly I haven't been especially glued to the many articles as they're coming out. There was a lot of mixed language, contradiction, and speculation there (also plenty in comments sections), sometimes offering conclusions, even at the time the sherriff's department stated they didn't know.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

Boebert wasting no time.

https://i.imgur.com/qwddZ9S.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+529|2892
Who am I to criticize someone relishing the suffering of another? This is still strange. For one, these culture wars where some other American is your bitter enemy because they mouth off on Twitter like you do is...bizarre. It's like bf2s drama but among people who definitely have better things to do. Also, it's not like Baldwin shot his least favorite daughter. He killed some white girl from Ukraine. Baldwin will have to pay some lawyers but he is never going to prison. I doubt he will dwell on this 5 years from now while celebrating Christmas with his family in Spain.

https://youtu.be/sjZ5I8l32CI
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

What would complete the circle is for Boebert to accidentally Cheney someone in the face, and then someone in the future could turn around and reference this post of hers. Although, more fault to Cheney for shooting his friend than an actor who was given a weapon after the AD called "cold."

I imagine we can expect a number of social gotchas. Some from people who genuinely want improved safety in the industry, some with political vendettas, and some who just want to twist the knife for its own sake.
uziq
Member
+441|2624

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Alec Baldwin offing his coworker is a good example of why you should strive to not be a raging asshole all the time. No matter what really happened, a lot of people are going to suspect he was being an asshole or playing with the gun when he offed the girl.
also colin powell covered for war crimes in vietnam and designed a conflict that killed 300,000 innocent people with no connection to terror and no threat to americans.

can you even imagine what all those dead people look like? we’re not talking one person in a freak accident. we are talking about mountains of bodies. can you even picture it, with all the snuff films and gore porn you watch online? imagine killing 300,000 people for a cynical lie. not even an innocent mistake. a knowing fabrication.

but i guess it’s okay because uncle tom was an inspiration to BlAcK fOlkS

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-23 20:47:09)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+529|2892

uziq wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Alec Baldwin offing his coworker is a good example of why you should strive to not be a raging asshole all the time. No matter what really happened, a lot of people are going to suspect he was being an asshole or playing with the gun when he offed the girl.
also colin powell covered for war crimes in vietnam and designed a conflict that killed 300,000 innocent people with no connection to terror and no threat to americans.

can you even imagine what all those dead people look like? we’re not talking one person in a freak accident. we are talking about mountains of bodies. can you even picture it, with all the snuff films and gore porn you watch online? imagine killing 300,000 people for a cynical lie. not even an innocent mistake. a knowing fabrication.

but i guess it’s okay because uncle tom was an inspiration to BlAcK fOlkS
Have you thought about how many Americans the Iraq War put through college?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

Imagine how many we could put through college while skipping the military as a middleman?
uziq
Member
+441|2624
richest country on earth.

needs to murder innocent brown people in order to give basic education to its citizens.

makes perfect zenzzz
uziq
Member
+441|2624
also, apropos of nothing, 'propmaster' has to be one of the lamest job titles ever. THE MASTER ... of ... PROPS!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

The name could very easily slip into B horror fare alongside Puppet Master, Wishmaster.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

uziq wrote:

richest country on earth.

needs to murder innocent brown people in order to give basic education to its citizens.

makes perfect zenzzz
There's roadblocks and limitations to even that.

https://www.studentdebtrelief.us/news/d … r-college/

Would be preferable to just discard VA red tape or whatever and have the country magically decide it's time to start putting people through the schooling they want, when they want it. And make sure that more Americans grow up in circumstances where college could be a viable path. At this point it almost sounds like discovering unicorns hanging out with bigfoot. Not intending to sound overly cynical about stuff, but …

e:

predictable counter, "where will the money come from?"

wHeRe wIlL tHe MoNeY CoMe FrOm?

e2:

second counter, "well if europe would pay its fair share in defense, we could have social programs too."

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2021-10-24 02:17:32)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5278|eXtreme to the maX
Imagine if America could just pay people to run up and down hills for four years and then give them free college and healthcare.
Could only happen in LaLa Land.

Rust Shooting:

In most dangerous endeavours there should be 3-5 safety steps any one of which should by itself prevent a disaster.
Things go wrong when people think they can skip their step and rely on the others.

From the smattering I've picked up here and there, in the film industry

Only the armourer handles, loads, unloads, hands off firearms

Live ammunition should never ever be in the same location prop guns will be used - except in extremely tightly controlled conditions, only handled by experts and fully accounted for.

Guns are only pointed at cast members if its not avoidable

Guns are never pointed at crew

Guns are checked repeatedly whether they are loaded, have barrel obstructions etc - a blank can kill someone, a barrel pressed in the dirt then fired with a blank can kill someone. Brandon Lee was killed by a bullet which came loose from a dummy cartridge which was then fired by a blank.

Real guns are avoided if at all possible. Blank firing replicas which can only take blanks are much preferred but still dangerous.
Real guns in oddball calibres often need hand-made blanks made up ad hoc by the armourer and these are risky.

Why Baldwin was pointing the gun at the directors is a question. Whether he was being a dick or they wanted a specific angle.

If its true people were doing target practice with prop guns using live ammunitions during down time thats wild negligence, really couldn't be worse.
Birds Aren't Real
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5278|eXtreme to the maX
Responsible shooting clubs don't typically let people dick around with blanks, it breeds complacency and contempt.

Film companies shouldn't let people dick around with live ammo, these days companies are formed and dissolved film by film, thats a bad starting point.
Birds Aren't Real
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+529|2892

uziq wrote:

richest country on earth.

needs to murder innocent brown people in order to give basic education to its citizens.

makes perfect zenzzz
I was going to make a sarcastic joke about needing to defend democracy in the Middle East but after this I don't know how anyone can take our talk about democracy seriously.

It is both reassuring and disappointing how quickly we returned to "business as usual" after this. It's a good thing the event didn't turn into our version of Blood Sunday. But there still should have been some reorientation of domestic priorities.

Can you believe this was still less than a year ago?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,952|5944|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Why Baldwin was pointing the gun at the directors is a question. Whether he was being a dick or they wanted a specific angle.
I had already thought that there was negligence before Mr. Baldwin was handed the gun, but I too would like to know the circumstances to his pointing it towards those two. Not absolved of at least part responsibility in my mind until things are clear.

Thought it odd that the firearm was passing multiple hands before it reached Alec, but if what some of the other wild stuff I've been reading about that production is true, it doesn't really surprise me. He's an experienced actor too, I'd be surprised if his alarm bells weren't going off.
uziq
Member
+441|2624

SuperJail Warden wrote:

uziq wrote:

richest country on earth.

needs to murder innocent brown people in order to give basic education to its citizens.

makes perfect zenzzz
I was going to make a sarcastic joke about needing to defend democracy in the Middle East but after this I don't know how anyone can take our talk about democracy seriously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJVMoe7OY0
It is both reassuring and disappointing how quickly we returned to "business as usual" after this. It's a good thing the event didn't turn into our version of Blood Sunday. But there still should have been some reorientation of domestic priorities.

Can you believe this was still less than a year ago?
it's actually still pretty big news here. there was a feature-length documentary about it, broadcast by the BBC, only last week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m … he-capitol

the collective, willed amnesia about from the republican establishment is, of course, deplorable.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,765|5278|eXtreme to the maX
"Doing this for a long time — and doing it with the right crews and studios — there are so many levels of safeguards to prevent something like this from happening that it's very hard to fathom how a live round made it into that firearm," Carpenter said.

He said that, despite what it might look like to viewers, a gun is almost never pointed directly at the camera or at an actor. Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

"Alec Baldwin, when he had that weapon, you never point a gun at the camera directly unless it's locked off and remotely operated," he said.

"It's always a trick of the camera. [The gun is] always pointed off [camera]. So that was also another level of safety violation right there."

Carpenter said the process that was usually followed when shooting a scene like this is a long and laborious one. It looks like this:

The weapon would have had to be locked in a safe to be taken out that morning and brought on to set. The safe is in the props truck. They would have been checked prior to going into the safe
In the props truck, the armourer or prop master would have gone to the safe, taken the weapons out of the safe and checked them to make sure that they were safe and nothing was in them
Then they would have been placed on a cart, generally a locked cart because other cast and crew can get curious, and checked again as they were put on the cart
Then they would have been rolled out to location. The prop master or the armourer will know what scenes are going to be filmed and will have prepped the weapon if it was to have dummy rounds or if it was to have blank rounds. (Carpenter usually keeps rounds in separate bags)
Then the prop master or armourer would have stood by to watch the weapons, which are unloaded, not even with blanks in them
The weapons stay on the cart until the scene is actually filmed.

Jeffrey Wright was acting with a weapon on the set of Westworld when news broke of the shooting.

"We were all pretty shocked. And it informed what we did from that moment on," he said in an interview at the Newport Beach Film Festival.

"I don't recall ever being handed a weapon that was not cleared in front of me — meaning chamber open, barrel shown to me, light flashed inside the barrel to make sure that it's cleared," Wright said.

"Clearly, that was a mismanaged set."

Actor Ray Liotta of Goodfellas fame agreed that the checks on firearms are usually extensive.

"They always — that I know of — they check it so you can see," Liotta said.

"They give it to the person you're pointing the gun at, they do it to the producer, they show whoever is there that it doesn't work."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-25/ … /100565066
Birds Aren't Real

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