Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Alcohol being bad
finally
uziq
Member
+427|2580
the whole argument has been that alcohol IS bad, which you have repeatedly denied by recycling convenient cherry-picked anecdotes ('my friend had a bad time on mushrooms' / 'well i like to drink, and i'm alright, jack').

on any chart of relative harm and dangers, alcohol comes near the very top. it's a bad chemical and you're harming yourself physically and potentially others by taking it. mushrooms aren't even in the same ballpark. nobody ends up in hospital hooked up to a dialysis machine because they had a preference for psilocybin binging.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/592199/fpsyt-11-592199-HTML/image_m/fpsyt-11-592199-g001.jpg
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 92199/full

That question is the subject of a report published today by the Global Commission on Drug Policy, an independent group of 26 former presidents and other bigwigs. They conclude that, as far as the scientific evidence is concerned, current drug laws have no rhyme or reason to them. The commission blames the UN’s drug classification system, which sorts some 300 psychoactive substances into “schedules” according to their harms and benefits. Some, such as morphine, have medical uses. Others, such as psilocybin (the active ingredient in magic mushrooms), are used mostly recreationally. Drugs without any apparent medical utility are automatically placed in the most dangerous category—and subjected to the strictest criminal penalties—regardless of the risk they pose.
the above highlight is EXACTLY what i have been saying for fucking YEARS, dipshit.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-13 03:43:16)

uziq
Member
+427|2580

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Alcohol being bad
finally
incredible isn't it ! we've made a real breakthrough today. the future therapeutic potential for this patient is promising.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,758|5234|eXtreme to the maX
I've never said alcohol is harmless, although in sensible moderate doses it is.

Cocaine seems pretty high though eh, and the score is non-zero for the rest.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+427|2580

Dilbert_X wrote:

I've never said alcohol is harmless, although in sensible moderate doses it is.
except this isn't the scientific line, and it isn't medically true. alcohol is harmful in ANY quantity. that's it. that's the current best guidance we have, based on our scientific understanding of alcohol/ethanol. i have cited numerous studies from any number of research groups on this topic. why aren't you listening? the idea that alcohol is 'safe in moderation' is about as scientifically sound as saying that 'cocaine in moderate doses is safe'. alcohol is a TOXIC carcinogen. it causes damage to your brain and mental functioning in ANY quantity.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 … inds-study

UK study of 25,000 people finds even moderate drinking is linked to lower grey matter density
as i have said for about 200 posts, continue to consume alcohol by all means (i do). but take it with an acknowledgment of the risks. alcohol is NOT safe in 'sensible doses'. you are increasing your risk to any number of health problems. it's as SIMPLE as that.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-13 03:46:36)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

uziq wrote:

alcohol metabolises into acetaldehyde pretty much as soon as it enters your body – ordinary saliva can do the trick for microbial amounts - which is an extremely toxic substance and carcinogen. hence why heavy drinkers suffer from mouth, throat/oesophageal, and other upper tract cancers.
e:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

As I understand it, a human liver can only metabolize so much before alcohol (e: per hour) before starts to accumulate (e: more) in your body.
I've mentioned before some of the stuff stating that even small amounts are/could be to varying degrees, on a case-by-case basis, harmful. I think it's safe to say that it isn't a very healthy substance.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

uziq wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Alcohol being bad
finally
incredible isn't it ! we've made a real breakthrough today. the future therapeutic potential for this patient is promising.
It really is the baseline to hold, but I'm afraid it's all relapse from here.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I've never said alcohol is harmless, although in sensible moderate doses it is.

Cocaine seems pretty high though eh, and the score is non-zero for the rest.
In "sensible, moderate doses" though it shouldn't be considered harmless. By all means keep drinking, but do so knowing that you're partaking of a drug very problematic in society. And keep all the violence and death and stuff in mind when complaining and waxing moralistic about the violence and death surrounding other drugs (much of which could be prevented if legalized and regulated).
uziq
Member
+427|2580
let's just put the 'drugs are for morons' / 'but i like drinking alcohol, a totally safe non-drug' stuff to bed. the war on drugs is about as credible as the war on terror, and we have put ourselves back generations both financially and in terms of real human harm with this misguided thinking. to say nothing of the potential medical benefits of 'bad illegal drugs' which we have ignored by arbitrarily placing them beyond the bounds of research funding and inquiry.

drug addicts need help. alcoholics need help. these are social and societal ills with very complex etiologies.

demonising recreational drug users as if they're especially reckless and daft, whilst drinking alcohol, is the height of dunderheaded ignorance. when an actual report commissioned by 26 world leaders concludes that there's 'no rhyme or reason' to current drug laws, you've lost the argument.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,758|5234|eXtreme to the maX
Once again, 'medical benefits" of drugs in a clinical setting don't translate to it being a good idea for bored teenagers to take them at parties in uncontrolled doses.

People who choose to break the law are reckless pretty well by definition.
Birds Aren't Real
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

Bored teenagers shouldn't be dipping into their parents' vodka either. The whole law argument is very tired and very countered at this point. Disregarding the stopping and asking if even necessary or if we're just wasting everyone's time with the war on drugs in its current form.

The US is going through this weird phase where mj varies from recreationally legal, to outright illegal, to legal for medical purposes. Someone in a state where it's illegal, "reckless by definition!" Neighboring state where it's legal, just partaking in the human pastime of using intoxicants. So inconsistent.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,758|5234|eXtreme to the maX
Which is funny because 'MJ' definitely is a long way from being harmless.

Why did nerdzique change his chart, did cocaine score too high?
Even on the new one cocaine is dead level with alcohol and cannabis not far behind.
Birds Aren't Real
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

cocaine is dead level with alcohol
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2848

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Bored teenagers shouldn't be dipping into their parents' vodka either. The whole law argument is very tired and very countered at this point. Disregarding the stopping and asking if even necessary or if we're just wasting everyone's time with the war on drugs in its current form.

The US is going through this weird phase where mj varies from recreationally legal, to outright illegal, to legal for medical purposes. Someone in a state where it's illegal, "reckless by definition!" Neighboring state where it's legal, just partaking in the human pastime of using intoxicants. So inconsistent.
The War on Drugs has been a destabilizing disaster. Like all wars I guess?

I agree with people who argue the War on Drugs absolutely destroyed American policing. Imagine people who are otherwise good citizens needing to fear cops because the cop has a marijuana arrest quota. Pig men cops arguing they smell marijuana so they can go through your car looking for something.

The "appeals to the law" fallacy took its hardest hits when it came to the WoD. A lot of otherwise normal people catching a legal record over a little bit of marijuana led to a lot of them questioning the fundamental authority of the state.

I can't stand judges at all either. Judge Judy has probably been a disaster for the legitimacy of the court. Go to a fancy building, and be polite to some asshole in a robe because...?

Dilbert wrote:

Aren't you an agent of the state?
Technically but I challenge you to find a post of mine where I argued we change the world blah blah blah. Screw that. Nobody is anymore special than anyone else. The teen with two girlfriends who is cucking classmates is clearly a better human specimen that me.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,758|5234|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

cocaine is dead level with alcohol
I'm sure the figures for alcohol are radically skewed by excessive users.
How is MJ so close to alcohol when its 'completely harmless' and 'there's no toxic dose dude'
Birds Aren't Real
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2848
I think cocaine is like liquor in the sense that it tends to make people do wild and crazy things they wouldn't otherwise do. Meanwhile marijuana makes you sleepy and docile. It doesn't help that our media pressures young people to drink to excess and do crazy stuff.

Uzique, you haven't done hard drugs in years you said...what are you doing instead? What is your drug of choice when the alcohol gets into your system and your brain goes begging for a dopamine rush? 

Also from what I understand, the amount of people smoking marijuana is going up while drinking is going down. Many people rather smoke pot and stay home safely than go to bars and get into trouble. I hate bars.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+427|2580

Dilbert_X wrote:

Once again, 'medical benefits" of drugs in a clinical setting don't translate to it being a good idea for bored teenagers to take them at parties in uncontrolled doses.

People who choose to break the law are reckless pretty well by definition.
when the laws are ridiculous, it doesn't condemn the person to being a 'moron' or 'reckless'. duh. laws aren't inviolable. they weren't handed down to our society by a prophet on a mount. bad laws need revision.

if a woman breaks the abortion laws in ireland or texas, is she a reprehensible, criminal moron?

also LOL at you saying 'all the other drugs are non-zero for risk'. a chocolate bar is non-zero for risk and harm. you engage in about 13 activities per day that come with a risk of personal harm or a deleterious effect to your health. living in a modern, air-polluted city has a 'non-zero' impact to your health. use your fucking head for once in your salutary little life.

for bored teenagers to take them at parties in uncontrolled doses.
you mean like people do with alcohol, a toxic, carcinogenic, brain-harming, addictive and potentially lethal substance, every week, in every country in the western world?

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-13 17:54:09)

uziq
Member
+427|2580

Dilbert_X wrote:

Which is funny because 'MJ' definitely is a long way from being harmless.

Why did nerdzique change his chart, did cocaine score too high?
Even on the new one cocaine is dead level with alcohol and cannabis not far behind.
i changed the chart because the first one was the economist, behind a paywall, and the second link is actually a more recent study with a bigger sample set.

in both cases i was looking for a study that clearly compared alcohol to a broad range of other drugs, specifically MDMA/LSD/mushrooms.

spoiler alert: i read scientific studies all day fucking long. i know what i'm doing.

i have always said cocaine is not good for you, but that many more people than you think use it without derailing their lives and ending up as a homeless, toothless crack addict. you know – just like many people can 'drink responsibly' without wrecking their car or pummelling their wife. it IS possible. but both drugs are objectively bad for you and users should consume them with all those provisos in mind. people weigh the costs/benefits of things on a daily basis and engage in 'harmful' or self-harming behaviour for the desirable effects. sitting inside on a saturday night with a quart of ice-cream is 'harmful'. life is only so long and we need our pleasant distractions. the problem is that you are totally confused, inconsistent and absurd on this topic, wrapped up in petty judgements and silly unscientific thinking.

if a major study establishes alcohol as 'about equal' with cocaine in terms of harm, why do you consistently demonize and scaremonger about cocaine use and play-down the effects of alcohol? it's almost as if you're totally out of touch with real scientific understanding and operating on your own simpleminded prejudices. wowsers!

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-13 18:35:43)

uziq
Member
+427|2580

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Uzique, you haven't done hard drugs in years you said...what are you doing instead? What is your drug of choice when the alcohol gets into your system and your brain goes begging for a dopamine rush?
i didn't drink or consume anything from a few months prior to covid until i moved to korea. i went teetotal. i got my dopamine rushes from jogging and working out, reading, cooking and eating nice meals. normal things. it was senseless even to drink during lockdown with no social life to speak of. i've never really been interested in drinking by myself or outside of a social occasion.

korea is 100% alcohol. their relationship to it is problematic. this country probably does need an 'option B'. i think weed or even MDMA would change this society a lot for the better. but obviously it's not my place to say and they can run their affairs as they see fit; breaking the law in the UK, where drug laws are only implemented in a lax manner and most everyone gets away with a finger-wag and a warning, is a different business altogether to breaking the law in someone else's country. it's enough to 'protest' at the nonsensical laws in your own country, where you're a citizen with legal rights. when you're a visitor, you're needlessly risking your own freedom. even possession of a small amount of weed can get you serious jail time here. (i've never smoked anything in my life fyi and have zero interest, so the 'legalize it!' weed rhetoric is not particularly interesting to me.)

massive alcohol intake, abuse, people passed out in the streets 6 days of the week, etc, is the total norm here. it has been casualized to the point of being beneath comment. every single convenience store has an entire refrigerator full of these fancily marketed, herbal 'hangover cures'. dealing with the day-to-day battering of alcohol abuse is just part of the 'culture' here. to not drink in korea is like being a vegan: totally outré and not understood by the locals. it's actually a huge social faux pas to even decline an invite to after-works drinks. if you fail to turn up consistently, you'll soon be excluded from the office hierarchy and seen as a black sheep. alcohol really rules the social life here. i don't think koreans could even mix and mingle freely without it – too many social conventions.

i'm fine not having drugs. i'm also fine when drugs are on the table. in an ideal world, you'd be able to acquire and take a clean, standardized, reliable drug for each and every occasion. MDMA is manifestly 100x better for nightclubs and bar hopping than alcohol. if you want to dance for hours with your friends, appreciate music, blend in with a crowd in a club, etc, ecstasy is just so much better than alcohol. drinking 7 pints at a club over the course of a night makes you lairy, aggressive, quick to anger or turns of emotion, sloppy, sluggish, bloated, etc. it sucks. similarly, if you're spending a weekend by yourself in the countryside and want to relax or do some mental processing, a mushroom trip is a much better idea than a bottle of whiskey. on mushrooms you can have huge emotional breakthroughs and 'defrag' your mental hard-drive. drinking whiskey by yourself whilst mulling over your problems is a first-class ticket to depression and unhealthy thoughts.

most drugs have a time and a place, but they're not so integral to my social life that i can't go without them. it would just be much, much better if the law actually made sense. what you said above about the 'war on drugs' delegitimising the state is actually spot on. a lot of everyday, normal, middle-class professionals take drugs in flagrant breach of the law and probably think less of the state/police/law in toto because of it. the whole thing makes a mockery of the idea that the state has your best interests at heart. it affects the social contract. the notion that you can ruin your entire life and career because you prefer to have a few lines of cocaine at a dinner party, at home chatting with friends, rather than drinking the societally approved 3 bottles of poisonous alcohol over an evening, is not a little ridiculous.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-13 19:11:42)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,758|5234|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Once again, 'medical benefits" of drugs in a clinical setting don't translate to it being a good idea for bored teenagers to take them at parties in uncontrolled doses.

People who choose to break the law are reckless pretty well by definition.
when the laws are ridiculous, it doesn't condemn the person to being a 'moron' or 'reckless'. duh. laws aren't inviolable. they weren't handed down to our society by a prophet on a mount. bad laws need revision.

if a woman breaks the abortion laws in ireland or texas, is she a reprehensible, criminal moron?

also LOL at you saying 'all the other drugs are non-zero for risk'. a chocolate bar is non-zero for risk and harm. you engage in about 13 activities per day that come with a risk of personal harm or a deleterious effect to your health. living in a modern, air-polluted city has a 'non-zero' impact to your health. use your fucking head for once in your salutary little life.

for bored teenagers to take them at parties in uncontrolled doses.
you mean like people do with alcohol, a toxic, carcinogenic, brain-harming, addictive and potentially lethal substance, every week, in every country in the western world?
Yes, you wanting a smorgasbord of hallucinogenic substances to take at parties is exactly the same as a woman needing an abortion.

You're an unhinged dipshit.

We went through the "I'm not going to obey laws I don't like' debate with Jay - it seems you're as one-eyed as him.

Some people get a dopamine rush from drink-driving and breaking speed limits.
Speed limits are arbitrary anyway, decided 50 years ago when cars couldn't speed. Why is the speed limit the same for a Morris Oxford and a Lamborghini? Tyres, suspension are so much better, every country has a different speed limit, Germany doesn't even have speed limits on the autobahn.
Speed limits are OUT OF DATE  and MAKE NO SENSE literally thousands of academic studies say cars can go MUCH FASTER and PERFECTLY SAFELY
Same argument for blood alcohol limits COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS there's risk in everything and I should be free to DECIDE FOR MYSELF
Until the govt WAKES UP and CHANGES THE LAW to remove all speed and drink-driving laws I'm going to ignore them BECAUSE THEY'RE STUPID and I'm ENTITLED TO MY DOPAMINE RUSH.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+427|2580
you seem very confused. abortion, like recreational drug use, is a personal choice. let people do what they want with their own bodies, so long as it doesn't impinge upon anyone else. that's liberalism, not 'one-eyed and unhinged'.

speeding laws, and drink-driving laws, are there because speeding kills innocent people. it's not 'let people do what they want with their own bodies'. it poses a huge and present risk to er, everyone else sharing the highways.

people taking MDMA at clubs or experimenting with hallucinogens CAN do so safely and in a way that doesn't harm anyone else. speeding a car whilst blitzed out of your mind, not so much.
lil_droo
Member
+18|623

uziq wrote:

you seem very confused. abortion, like recreational drug use, is a personal choice. let people do what they want with their own bodies, so long as it doesn't impinge upon anyone else. that's liberalism, not 'one-eyed and unhinged'.

speeding laws, and drink-driving laws, are there because speeding kills innocent people. it's not 'let people do what they want with their own bodies'. it poses a huge and present risk to er, everyone else sharing the highways.

people taking MDMA at clubs or experimenting with hallucinogens CAN do so safely and in a way that doesn't harm anyone else. speeding a car whilst blitzed out of your mind, not so much.
Technically ppl that are pro-life don't think abortion is a personal choice cause it involves a human life/baby. That's the whole point, not saying i 100% degree but u can't compare abortion to drug use. Plus a lot of "personal choices" can have impact on society. Heroin addicts robbing people to get their fix.
gang shit
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5900|USA

There are a ton of political cartoons of people wringing their hands over the welfare of an unborn fetus in one frame, and then scoffing at a born infant in the next. "Oh great, another welfare baby." Strikes very true, empowering the point that it's less about the sanctity of life, and more about control over other people's lives.

Also not helping is conservative opposition to birth control.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2848
Norm Macdonald
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5760|949

Always appreciated his quirky humor. I always found his joke-telling very creative, and I liked the way he always seemed to subvert comedy structure. Truly a legend
uziq
Member
+427|2580
can't believe norm macdonald died. guy was literally one of my favourite comedians.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2021 Jeff Minard