BF2S Forums The Audio Debate thread; for .Sup and Freezer

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Watching Trassiberian so I may not reply very fast
Say again why you think your amp comes close to the 9k Marantz one?

By looking at the specifications?

It was $3000 new in today's money, you know. If you also include the inflation of the audio market due to dropped sales ("the Ipod era"), they're not that horrendously far off price-wise either.

But how old is that thing? Components inside the amp that were good decades ago are crap now compared to what is hi-end on the market now. Specs are not everything, not even close. If something is written on the box that doesn't mean it can provide, especially if its as old as your amp. If it was that good you would be stupid not to sell it at 3k with an advertisement like: "It gets really close to the 9k worth Marantz for 1/3 of the price"

eskimo_sammyjoe wrote:

.Sup wrote:

I own a tube amp made in 55, 56, guess how much its worth

No.

I have one too, one of the most renowned for tone and clarity...

And guess what? I actually play a fucking guitar through it. What do you do, listen to happy hardcore, trance and Miles Davis? Fuck off. You audio geeks are stupid.

Last edited by Uzique (2009-06-14 17:57:23)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Watching Trassiberian so I may not reply very fast
Say again why you think your amp comes close to the 9k Marantz one?

By looking at the specifications?

It was $3000 new in today's money, you know. If you also include the inflation of the audio market due to dropped sales ("the Ipod era"), they're not that horrendously far off price-wise either.

But how old is that thing? Components inside the amp that were good decades ago are crap now compared to what is hi-end on the market now. Specs are not everything, not even close. If something is written on the box that doesn't mean it can provide, especially if its as old as your amp. If it was that good you would be stupid not to sell it at 3k with an advertisement like: "It gets really close to the 9k worth Marantz for 1/3 of the price"

Everything in it that ages has been replaced by parts better than what was originally there, and any self-respecting audiophile should know that amplifier technology hasn't progressed more than marginally since the 70's. Transistors don't perform better in the 1-30 000Hz range today than they did 40 years ago, transformers don't deliver bigger currents. Most parts aren't even cheaper to manufacture today. That Marantz is based upon the same exact technology as mine, only in a slightly more refined form.

Price-wise, you also have to consider the audio market inflation. Ever since the Walkman came around, the market for high-end audio equipment has plummeted, forcing many manufacturers out of the market, and the remaining to ramp up their prices like mad to compensate for the lack of sales.

As for selling price today, it's a different thing. My amplifiers both have quite some cosmetic issues, and they're far from mint, something that drags price down immensly when dealing vintage gear. I have no doubt that a mint M-120A with packaging would go for no less than 3000, probably even more due to collector's value.

ghettoperson wrote:

There's a reason why you listen to amps and speakers before you buy them; because specs don't tell you shit about how the amp is going to sound.

That's completely true when regarding speakers. With higher end solid-state amplifiers, especially reference ones, it's not true to the same extent. No two amps sound the same, but the differences are minimal in comparison to speakers.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-14 18:13:06)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

It was $3000 new in today's money, you know. If you also include the inflation of the audio market due to dropped sales ("the Ipod era"), they're not that horrendously far off price-wise either.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ … amp_combo/
oh look for 500$ it even ships with a bundled amp
that is your preamp is it not?

Did you even read my post? Of course you can't sell a second-hand item for the same price as a new item. In the same way, you can't compare the price of a second-hand item to that of a new one.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-14 18:25:48)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/127997-luxman_c120a_mkii_preamp__m120a_mkii_amp_combo/
oh look for 500$ it even ships with a bundled amp
that is your preamp is it not?

Did you even read my post? Of course you can't sell a second-hand item for the same price as a new item. In the same way, you can't compare the price of a second-hand item to that of a new one.

hmm you said it your self its a "collector" amp so it could sell for even more than it was initially worth.

I wrote:

I have no doubt that a mint M-120A with packaging would go for no less than 3000, probably even more due to collector's value.

I said, mint condition with original packaging. Something you probably won't find all that easy.

And no matter what, the specs speak for themselves.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-14 18:26:01)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

hmm you said it your self its a "collector" amp so it could sell for even more than it was initially worth.

I wrote:

I have no doubt that a mint M-120A with packaging would go for no less than 3000, probably even more due to collector's value.

I said, mint condition with original packaging.

And I gave you a link to one (1 scratch but that doesn't reduce the price by 1000%)

That's exactly what it does. You don't get scratches when you buy new stuff. You also get half a wheelbarrow full of manuals and peripherals, as well as boxes, etc. etc.

And I say it again, the specs speak for themselves.

I should also mention that my price is calculated from the original resell value of $800-900 in 1980, not what X end-user estimates their value to today. Mine also has nothing but minor cosmetic issues, and I got it for free; that doesn't mean it's equal to a cassette radio you get for free when you shop at Wal-Mart.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-14 18:40:31)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

And I gave you a link to one (1 scratch but that doesn't reduce the price by 1000%)

That's exactly what it does. You don't get scratches when you buy new stuff. You also get half a wheelbarrow full of manuals and peripherals, as well as boxes, etc. etc.

And I say it again, the specs speak for themselves.

I should also mention that my price is calculated from the original resell value of $800-900 in 1980, not what X end-user estimates their value to today. Mine also has nothing but minor cosmetic issues, and I got it for free; that doesn't mean it's equal to a cassette radio you get for free when you shop at Wal-Mart.

Dude 1 scratch and a lack of manual does NOT reduce the price by 3k. Stop bullshitting.

I'm still counting from the resale price, if you know what that is.

And I must still insist that the specs speak for themselves. Both my amp and the Marantz are way past the point where price:performance is an issue, and it's very hard to push class AB (I hope you know what that means) amps to much higher performance. I never said mine is as good as the Marantz, I just said it comes very close, and you can by no means say that "up to 0.02%" is very far from 0.01% Given the fact that both amplifiers were measured in the same way, that is indeed a very valid benchmark.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-15 04:06:38)

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Dude 1 scratch and a lack of manual does NOT reduce the price by 3k. Stop bullshitting.

I'm still counting from the resale price, if you know what that is.

And I must still insist that the specs speak for themselves.

dream on Freez0r

How about you prove me wrong instead? You know, by facts?

lol 7 pages.

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

dream on Freez0r

How about you prove me wrong instead? You know, by facts?

lol ever heard of listening to products and then deciding whats better? or you buy stuff that have better specs regardless how they sound? Specs aren't really facts in this case, you really gotta listen to how it sounds.

Like I said before, the differences beyond specs matter very little when dealing reference amplifiers. They're designed with one thing in mind - to be invisible. Both of these things have a 99.9% flat frequency and frequency/distortion curve way past the human hearing range, leaving any sound colouring to whatever speakers and preamplifiers there are in the chain.

Your argument would be valid if we were dealing lower-end or tube equipment.

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

A shielded stereo RCA cable to prevent all the bloody electric noise in my room from coming out my speakers.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/ … G_0354.jpg

You solder capacitors but you can't make a shielded IC? How odd is that

I assume you also make all your own cables?

Of course I could make my own if I wanted to, but taking the time to wrap a cable in foil and tape is just such a headache when you can just spend 20€ on a more durable factory-made one.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2009-06-15 09:57:41)

GC_PaNzerFIN wrote:

Why the endless pursuit of 100% perfect sound when your human ears are not even capable of noticing differences so small you are doing?

Because they are stubborn.

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

A shielded stereo RCA cable to prevent all the bloody electric noise in my room from coming out my speakers.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/ … G_0354.jpg

You solder capacitors but you can't make a shielded IC? How odd is that

I assume you also make all your own cables?

Of course I could make my own if I wanted to, but taking the time to wrap a cable in foil and tape is just such a headache when you can just spend 20€ on a more durable factory-made one.

I made couple for my buddies, but the silver ones I have I bought as silver is really sensitive to dirt and it gets easily fucked so to say. In order to make you own IC you don't need to tube the wiring you just buy a shielded cable and solder it to RCA plugs or any other plugs for that matter. This way you save some money and get something better for less.

Freezer7Pro wrote:

.Sup wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

I assume you also make all your own cables?

Of course I could make my own if I wanted to, but taking the time to wrap a cable in foil and tape is just such a headache when you can just spend 20€ on a more durable factory-made one.

I made couple for my buddies, but the silver ones I have I bought as silver is really sensitive to dirt and it gets easily fucked so to say. In order to make you own IC you don't need to tube the wiring you just buy a shielded cable and solder it to RCA plugs or any other plugs for that matter. This way you save some money and get something better for less.

Oh, in that sense. I bought the cable in Sweden for less than what plugs and cable would have been locally. That shit is ridiculously expensive here.

I mostly order from USA or China (ebay mostly) they have everything I ever want and I'm often lucky and get free shipping. I recently ordered some stuff from Cable organizer.com, was browsing their site for more than an hour, they have so many cool stuff, very affordable price too