Braddock
Agitator
+916|6591|Éire
G20 police 'used undercover men to incite crowds'

"An MP who was involved in last month's G20 protests in London is to call for an investigation into whether the police used agents provocateurs to incite the crowds. Liberal Democrat Tom Brake says he saw what he believed to be two plain-clothes police officers go through a police cordon after presenting their ID cards. Brake, who along with hundreds of others was corralled behind police lines near Bank tube station in the City of London on the day of the protests, says he was informed by people in the crowd that the men had been seen to throw bottles at the police and had encouraged others to do the same shortly before they passed through the cordon. Brake, a member of the influential home affairs select committee, will raise the allegations when he gives evidence before parliament's joint committee on human rights on Tuesday."

If this turns out to be true it will be a new low in quasi-fascist, police-state politics. This has the hallmarks of the same mentality seen in Germany's staged attack by Poland in the run-up to WWII. I'm guessing they thought that at best they might get a major riot and would then be seen to be justified in using all the force they used at the protests (and who knows maybe have grounds to call for more policing power in the future?) and at worst they would have a handful of 'incidents' that they could use to persuade people that the crowds were troublesome and keep the media off their backs.

Obviously nothing is certain at this stage but we shall see. If this accusation has any truth in it then the chief of police's head must roll... and maybe even Gordon's too.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6712|'Murka

"...agents provocateurs..." Always blame the French.

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act? Now the police/government are in a position where they have to prove a negative to disprove this accusation. It would seem the accusers have much more to gain by making the accusation than the police would have by actually doing what they are accused of doing.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6591|Éire

FEOS wrote:

"...agents provocateurs..." Always blame the French.

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act? Now the police/government are in a position where they have to prove a negative to disprove this accusation. It would seem the accusers have much more to gain by making the accusation than the police would have by actually doing what they are accused of doing.
It's quite apparent what they would have had to gain from such a tactic... at best they might get a major riot and would then be seen to be justified in using all the force they used at the protests (and who knows maybe have grounds to call for more policing power in the future?) and at worst they would have a handful of 'incidents' that they could use to persuade people that the crowds were troublesome and keep the media off their backs... you're right on the money when you mention how difficult it will be to make this stick, it's always difficult to prove a negative. This case would probably need a whistle-blower to make it really threaten those higher up.

Let's not forget though that the 'accuser' is a member of parliament.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6712|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

"...agents provocateurs..." Always blame the French.

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act? Now the police/government are in a position where they have to prove a negative to disprove this accusation. It would seem the accusers have much more to gain by making the accusation than the police would have by actually doing what they are accused of doing.
It's quite apparent what they would have had to gain from such a tactic... at best they might get a major riot and would then be seen to be justified in using all the force they used at the protests (and who knows maybe have grounds to call for more policing power in the future?) and at worst they would have a handful of 'incidents' that they could use to persuade people that the crowds were troublesome and keep the media off their backs... you're right on the money when you mention how difficult it will be to make this stick, it's always difficult to prove a negative. This case would probably need a whistle-blower to make it really threaten those higher up.
You haven't pointed to what the police would have to gain by instigating violence against themselves. Do you really think the police force there wants to crack skulls for enjoyment or something? They would have much more to gain politically by being seen to handle protests without violence or controversy than by instigating violence. Regardless of what they did, their response against unarmed protesters would be seen as heavy-handed.

Braddock wrote:

Let's not forget though that the 'accuser' is a member of parliament.
Oh, I noticed that. Hence my comment about what he would have to gain by making the accusation.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6407|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act?
More power.
Fuck Israel
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6902|132 and Bush

show offs
Xbone Stormsurgezz
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6712|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act?
More power.
By being criticized for excessive use of force?

Because that's bound to happen in any situation like that, regardless of whether the use of force was excessive or not, warranted or not. Police know that they have nothing to gain and much to lose from a riot situation. It is nonsensical to think they would instigate something like that.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7111|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act?
More power.
By being criticized for excessive use of force?

Because that's bound to happen in any situation like that, regardless of whether the use of force was excessive or not, warranted or not. Police know that they have nothing to gain and much to lose from a riot situation. It is nonsensical to think they would instigate something like that.
Unless their budget has been cut and their aim is to increase it "because it is necesary" ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6591|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act?
More power.
By being criticized for excessive use of force?

Because that's bound to happen in any situation like that, regardless of whether the use of force was excessive or not, warranted or not. Police know that they have nothing to gain and much to lose from a riot situation. It is nonsensical to think they would instigate something like that.
You seem to have an incredible amount of faith in the security services.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6820|Πάϊ

FEOS wrote:

"...agents provocateurs..." Always blame the French.

On a serious note: What could the police possibly have to gain from such an act? Now the police/government are in a position where they have to prove a negative to disprove this accusation. It would seem the accusers have much more to gain by making the accusation than the police would have by actually doing what they are accused of doing.
The police have a lot to gain. This sort of thing happens a lot around here. In the recent riots in Athens if you remember, there's a video and pictures of a group of cops dressed in plain black clothes (to resemble anarchists) who mingled with the crowd and started causing trouble.

News stations in Greece will grab every chance they get to bash any form of protest and create a negative public opinion of the protesters. So that's exactly what the police are doing. Mind you, protests around here are serious business even without the "help" of the police. Molotovs and rocks are standard procedure. But even so, there's a few things even the most hardcore troublemakers won't do. Things like throwing molotovs at shops full of people etc.

It's very easy to make protesters look bad. The police and those they serve have everything to gain from it.
Here's some pics

Last edited by oug (2009-05-11 07:38:13)

ƒ³
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6830|Global Command
I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6826|South Florida

ATG wrote:

I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Agree.

However if they are willing to secretely cause riots. Then i say, why wouldn't they engineer a flu? This too would cause panic and fear. Fear = loss of interest in politics and a need for help in any way possible - whether or not it comes with legislation.

I saw, a 'terrorist' attack is a great way to cause fear and panic, and to allow the government to easily pass legislation that is completely against the constitution. Legislation that will never go away - even in a completely "terror" free state.

sigh...
15 more years! 15 more years!
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6524|Escea

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Let's not forget though that the 'accuser' is a member of parliament.
Oh, I noticed that. Hence my comment about what he would have to gain by making the accusation.
Publicity for being the sole voice who spoke out no doubt.

This whole thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6826|South Florida

M.O.A.B wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Let's not forget though that the 'accuser' is a member of parliament.
Oh, I noticed that. Hence my comment about what he would have to gain by making the accusation.
This whole thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.
You seem to forget that being good, moral, humane, fair, all the things you imagine a government should be. Those are all taught. They arent natural.

What is natural, is the need for power and control.

People seem to think that the US government, and a world 'power' such as the UN, is invincible towards corruption.

It's sad, and scary, but true.

I and many many others feel that these powers are already corrupt.
15 more years! 15 more years!
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6524|Escea

Mitch wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Oh, I noticed that. Hence my comment about what he would have to gain by making the accusation.
This whole thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.
You seem to forget that being good, moral, humane, fair, all the things you imagine a government should be. Those are all taught. They arent natural.

What is natural, is the need for power and control.

People seem to think that the US government, and a world 'power' such as the UN, is invincible towards corruption.

It's sad, and scary, but true.

I and many many others feel that these powers are already corrupt.
I know as well as anyone that governments aren't as clean as they often portray. Regardless, it still sounds like a conspiracy theory.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6801|so randum

Mitch wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Agree.

However if they are willing to secretely cause riots. Then i say, why wouldn't they engineer a flu? This too would cause panic and fear. Fear = loss of interest in politics and a need for help in any way possible - whether or not it comes with legislation.

I saw, a 'terrorist' attack is a great way to cause fear and panic, and to allow the government to easily pass legislation that is completely against the constitution. Legislation that will never go away - even in a completely "terror" free state.

sigh...
Nutter.
Invoking a riot is one thing (with one death), blowing up 1000's of people or infecting more with a flu is a totally different shade away.

The Government isn't out to kill you.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6524|Escea

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Agree.

However if they are willing to secretely cause riots. Then i say, why wouldn't they engineer a flu? This too would cause panic and fear. Fear = loss of interest in politics and a need for help in any way possible - whether or not it comes with legislation.

I saw, a 'terrorist' attack is a great way to cause fear and panic, and to allow the government to easily pass legislation that is completely against the constitution. Legislation that will never go away - even in a completely "terror" free state.

sigh...
Nutter.
Invoking a riot is one thing (with one death), blowing up 1000's of people or infecting more with a flu is a totally different shade away.

The Government isn't out to kill you.
Watch out! The CIA are under yer bed
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6801|so randum
said it before, say it again. i don't get (what maybe stereotypical) american paranoia about government.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6950

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Agree.

However if they are willing to secretely cause riots. Then i say, why wouldn't they engineer a flu? This too would cause panic and fear. Fear = loss of interest in politics and a need for help in any way possible - whether or not it comes with legislation.

I saw, a 'terrorist' attack is a great way to cause fear and panic, and to allow the government to easily pass legislation that is completely against the constitution. Legislation that will never go away - even in a completely "terror" free state.

sigh...
Nutter.
Invoking a riot is one thing (with one death), blowing up 1000's of people or infecting more with a flu is a totally different shade away.

The Government isn't out to kill you.
But Obama is! Alex Jones said so.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7017

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have no doubt that they would do it.
Any excuse to expand police power is a good excuse to them.
Agree.

However if they are willing to secretely cause riots. Then i say, why wouldn't they engineer a flu? This too would cause panic and fear. Fear = loss of interest in politics and a need for help in any way possible - whether or not it comes with legislation.

I saw, a 'terrorist' attack is a great way to cause fear and panic, and to allow the government to easily pass legislation that is completely against the constitution. Legislation that will never go away - even in a completely "terror" free state.

sigh...
Nutter.
Invoking a riot is one thing (with one death), blowing up 1000's of people or infecting more with a flu is a totally different shade away.

The Government isn't out to kill you.
Shock Doctrine. They don't want to control you, they want to subdue you.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6712|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


More power.
By being criticized for excessive use of force?

Because that's bound to happen in any situation like that, regardless of whether the use of force was excessive or not, warranted or not. Police know that they have nothing to gain and much to lose from a riot situation. It is nonsensical to think they would instigate something like that.
You seem to have an incredible amount of faith in the security services.
I don't have any more faith in the security services than I have in self-serving politicians. I'm just trying to work through it logically and it makes no sense whatsoever as presented.

Why have the "undercover" cops 1) carry ID identifying them as such and 2) use it to get through a police checkpoint in clear view of the very people they were just trying to get to do things?

It's like any other conspiracy theory: It shrivels to nothing under the light of scrutiny...which is just more proof to the conspiracy theorists. Lack of proof of a conspiracy is proof of a conspiracy.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6933|949

Well, seeing as the UK has cameras everywhere it shouldn't be that hard to prove one way or another...that is, unless the people who review the tapes are in on it too

Interesting allegations, I'll wait to pass judgement.
TSI
Cholera in the time of love
+247|6282|Toronto
THey did exactly that at the G8 summit in Montebello a few years ago: had Quebec police act as provokers to incite a riot, thus enabling "normal" police to have an excuse to beat up the peaceful protesters.


and Stealthy source
I like pie.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6712|'Murka

If they are stupid enough to have put together such a sophomoric effort, they deserve to get their asses handed to them.

But I believe in "innocent until proven guilty". That lawmaker has some evidence to find, imo.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
13rin
Member
+977|6780
Hey Braddock.  I reread your post with my foil hat on and it made sense.  Gordo is out to get us all!!!

Nah, but if it is true....  Ha!  Sucks to be over there!  I wonder how far behind we are though... .

*edit:

I saw this cop... Or at least he acted like one.  He tossed a bottle and stared down some people.  He looked really angry. I was scared and went back inside.  My big brother's friend told me the 'cop'  acted tough.  He was a cop.  Only cops are mean like that.  My friends are mad at him... You should be mad too.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-05-11 22:13:25)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

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