This is ironic. You denounce fascism with fascism. Beautiful.Man With No Name wrote:
yes. yes I do. If I saw a grave with a swatsika flag there, I would remove. Id be pretty sure you probably put it there.
As long as these freaks stop thinking that the "South shall rise again", I'm fine with flags on the graves.
The Civil War was really about economics. It was just 2 groups of rich businesspeople pitting their poor against each other.xBlackPantherx wrote:
I think it was acceptable for him to remove the flags. The confederate flag stands for succession, racism and the confederate was a domestic enemy. I think it's fine as a joke (like on a shotglass or flask) but not in serious belief because with it most likely comes discrimination of many sorts.Macbeth wrote:
So you all agree it's perfectly acceptable to remove flags from graves because you don't agree with what the flag stands for?
The Union didn't care about the fate of blacks anymore than the South did. If the Union really had cared, they would've provided a lot more than just freedom to former slaves. The whole "40 acres and a mule" thing didn't pan out, but if it had, then there would be a lot less poverty among blacks today. Also, had the North really cared about blacks, they also would've never allowed Jim Crow laws to develop.
The slavery issue is mostly a smokescreen for the economic reasons for the war. It worked well in motivating many Northerners, but carpetbagging was more the motivation of the North's leadership.
So, to criticize the Confederacy for racism seems rather hypocritical when considering the treatment groups like the Irish received in the North during the same period. To criticize the Confederacy for oppression seems hypocritical when considering the living conditions of the average factory worker in the North as compared to the owners of these factories.
In truth, neither side was particularly virtuous or respectable, but what allows this councilman to do what he has is victory, nothing more. History is written by the victors, but I would've expected freedom of speech and the respect of private property to remain intact in this country. Apparently, I was wrong.
That's a slippery slope, my friend. It's like those hate speech laws.m3thod wrote:
it's not acceptable to display racist material anywhere that inculdes fuckin graves.Macbeth wrote:
lol ok everyone is fine about some dickhead thinking because he has a problem with it, it makes it acceptable to mess with the graves of other people.
Who decides what qualifies as hate speech?
Do you really want the government deciding for you what you can and can't say?
People don't seriously think that...at least not in the sense of secession, the Civil War, and such.Poseidon wrote:
As long as these freaks stop thinking that the "South shall rise again", I'm fine with flags on the graves.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Back to your old trolling ways. I expected more from you, GS.Man With No Name wrote:
I know. I just wasnt taking the bait. You think youre clever.Macbeth wrote:
There more to hat statement, either way I have stuff to do. I'll be back in time.Man With No Name wrote:
ummm....that...you're scare of....m3thod?
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6994
All you who think it was ok to destroy the flags are nuts. Shall all losers of history's wars go unmarked? This is America bitches. The Confederacy is part our history. It is something worth remembering.
Oooooh yes they do, FEOS. It's not highly prevalent but there are quite a number of people in the south who still believe it's going to happen.FEOS wrote:
People don't seriously think that...at least not in the sense of secession, the Civil War, and such.Poseidon wrote:
As long as these freaks stop thinking that the "South shall rise again", I'm fine with flags on the graves.
Thank you for being sensible. I can't believe people aren't getting this. It's fucking sad.Superior Mind wrote:
All you who think it was ok to destroy the flags are nuts. Shall all losers of history's wars go unmarked? This is America bitches. The Confederacy is part our history. It is something worth remembering.
I'd have no problem with it. And I doubt the councilman would have any problem with it either.Man With No Name wrote:
Im sure images like http://asianconnection71.com/AfricaFistZm.jpg or http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/jul … h_flag.gif you would have no problem with.
Last edited by Turquoise (2009-04-25 08:02:09)
On the other hand you could say it's comparable to the Germans banning any sort of Nazi symbolism on graves.Turquoise wrote:
Thank you for being sensible. I can't believe people aren't getting this. It's fucking sad.Superior Mind wrote:
All you who think it was ok to destroy the flags are nuts. Shall all losers of history's wars go unmarked? This is America bitches. The Confederacy is part our history. It is something worth remembering.
There are definite parallels....
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6994
Indeed. The abolition of slavery or at least the tease of it with the Emancipation Proclamation seems to have had been a way to cripple the South's economy rather than an act of virtue on part of the North.Turquoise wrote:
The Civil War was really about economics. It was just 2 groups of rich businesspeople pitting their poor against each other.xBlackPantherx wrote:
I think it was acceptable for him to remove the flags. The confederate flag stands for succession, racism and the confederate was a domestic enemy. I think it's fine as a joke (like on a shotglass or flask) but not in serious belief because with it most likely comes discrimination of many sorts.Macbeth wrote:
So you all agree it's perfectly acceptable to remove flags from graves because you don't agree with what the flag stands for?
The Union didn't care about the fate of blacks anymore than the South did. If the Union really had cared, they would've provided a lot more than just freedom to former slaves. The whole "40 acres and a mule" thing didn't pan out, but if it had, then there would be a lot less poverty among blacks today. Also, had the North really cared about blacks, they also would've never allowed Jim Crow laws to develop.
The slavery issue is mostly a smokescreen for the economic reasons for the war. It worked well in motivating many Northerners, but carpetbagging was more the motivation of the North's leadership.
So, to criticize the Confederacy for racism seems rather hypocritical when considering the treatment groups like the Irish received in the North during the same period. To criticize the Confederacy for oppression seems hypocritical when considering the living conditions of the average factory worker in the North as compared to the owners of these factories.
In truth, neither side was particularly virtuous or respectable, but what allows this councilman to do what he has is victory, nothing more. History is written by the victors, but I would've expected freedom of speech and the respect of private property to remain intact in this country. Apparently, I was wrong.
...and if they do, what does it matter? As long as they aren't engaging in treason, they aren't breaking any laws.Poseidon wrote:
Oooooh yes they do, FEOS. It's not highly prevalent but there are quite a number of people in the south who still believe it's going to happen.FEOS wrote:
People don't seriously think that...at least not in the sense of secession, the Civil War, and such.Poseidon wrote:
As long as these freaks stop thinking that the "South shall rise again", I'm fine with flags on the graves.
I don't like this secession shit anymore than you, but I'm not going to support the imposition of thought crimes.
The burden of living in a free society is that you must accept the expression of unpopular and often ignorant views.
I agree. I think that Germany should change that. As I mentioned in a previous post, I understand why they act as they do toward Nazi stuff, but I think enough time has passed that it should be allowed.Bertster7 wrote:
On the other hand you could say it's comparable to the Germans banning any sort of Nazi symbolism on graves.Turquoise wrote:
Thank you for being sensible. I can't believe people aren't getting this. It's fucking sad.Superior Mind wrote:
All you who think it was ok to destroy the flags are nuts. Shall all losers of history's wars go unmarked? This is America bitches. The Confederacy is part our history. It is something worth remembering.
There are definite parallels....
Again, I don't support Nazies, but I do support the freedom of speech.
There is absolutely no way Germany will change that, ever.Turquoise wrote:
I agree. I think that Germany should change that. As I mentioned in a previous post, I understand why they act as they do toward Nazi stuff, but I think enough time has passed that it should be allowed.Bertster7 wrote:
On the other hand you could say it's comparable to the Germans banning any sort of Nazi symbolism on graves.Turquoise wrote:
Thank you for being sensible. I can't believe people aren't getting this. It's fucking sad.
There are definite parallels....
Again, I don't support Nazies, but I do support the freedom of speech.
I don't think they should. It is best to condemn some things. But then I am a big supporter of laws against inciting racial hatred, which have proven exceedingly effective in Europe, enabling us to lock up loads of terrorists. Being able to remove the instigators from circulation is a very good thing, it's far more effective than bombing them.
I'm not saying lock 'em up.Turquoise wrote:
...and if they do, what does it matter? As long as they aren't engaging in treason, they aren't breaking any laws.Poseidon wrote:
Oooooh yes they do, FEOS. It's not highly prevalent but there are quite a number of people in the south who still believe it's going to happen.FEOS wrote:
People don't seriously think that...at least not in the sense of secession, the Civil War, and such.
I don't like this secession shit anymore than you, but I'm not going to support the imposition of thought crimes.
The burden of living in a free society is that you must accept the expression of unpopular and often ignorant views.
I'm saying they're disillusioned freaks.
You seem to be missing the point that a grave is private property. You can't just remove shit from it as you please regardless of your title.xBlackPantherx wrote:
Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Then it would be the police who should of removed it. Not some guy who doesn't like it.
Legally it would be up to the family members who arranged for the burial.Auburn Councilman Arthur L. Dowdell...when several people told him they “had a problem” with the flags.And again...Macbeth wrote:
lol ok everyone is fine about some dickhead thinking because he has a problem with it, it makes it acceptable to mess with the graves of other people.It's not just "some dickhead" who's the only one that "has a problem" with it. It's a councilman, with authority, who was responding to public complaints about visual signs that infer the belief/ideas of racism, recession and intolerance by a fucking middle school with children.Auburn Councilman Arthur L. Dowdell...when several people told him they “had a problem” with the flags.
I for one don't want my children around those beliefs and visuals as much as I would having the same points replaced with a Nazi flag/extremists of any kind/that 'black power' picture put up before (depends. What I mean is if that circumstance is promoting inequality of any kind)/etc.
It's just like any school not allowing swastikas/offensive/degrading material and, at times depending where you are, confederate symbols because that is essentially saying you believe in those ideals that were followed at the time. Why should those symbols be allowed 100 feet outside the school?
EDIT: Don't take the black power comment out of context. I'm saying I support equality and against inequality in either direction.
And as for that previous issue regarding the deceased not having requested the flags, the responsibility of that decision goes to family members and holders of an estate.
Again, NOT the fucking government.
A majority of the time kids are a product of their parents' beliefs and the people they hang around with. I realize this makes me a hypocrite, at least with the parental influence part, but a lot of the time people are heavily influenced by those people.DrunkFace wrote:
Kids never make their own minds up. They are a product of their peers.
I don't care if you put that stuff up in private places, keep it to yourself, etc. Put when you put it up in public and in the eye of kids, that's where I would draw the line.
I think you mean delusional, although they probably are disillusioned too for other reasons.Poseidon wrote:
I'm not saying lock 'em up.Turquoise wrote:
...and if they do, what does it matter? As long as they aren't engaging in treason, they aren't breaking any laws.Poseidon wrote:
Oooooh yes they do, FEOS. It's not highly prevalent but there are quite a number of people in the south who still believe it's going to happen.
I don't like this secession shit anymore than you, but I'm not going to support the imposition of thought crimes.
The burden of living in a free society is that you must accept the expression of unpopular and often ignorant views.
I'm saying they're disillusioned freaks.
Again, you'll get no argument from me about absurdity of secession in the modern age.
I don't know the details of it in the US, but I would've thought the graveyard is council property. Therefore the council should be well within their rights to determine what is inappropriate to display there.Turquoise wrote:
You seem to be missing the point that a grave is private property. You can't just remove shit from it as you please regardless of your title.
And as for that previous issue regarding the deceased not having requested the flags, the responsibility of that decision goes to family members and holders of an estate.
Again, NOT the fucking government.
It is best to condemn things... in the public square. If you make expression of something illegal, it goes underground and finds legitimacy among small but determined groups.Bertster7 wrote:
There is absolutely no way Germany will change that, ever.
I don't think they should. It is best to condemn some things. But then I am a big supporter of laws against inciting racial hatred, which have proven exceedingly effective in Europe, enabling us to lock up loads of terrorists. Being able to remove the instigators from circulation is a very good thing, it's far more effective than bombing them.
The only way racism will be lessened in any society is to engage it but to respect the freedom of speech while doing so.
If the cemetery is publicly owned, then you are correct to a point. If it is private, you are wrong.Bertster7 wrote:
I don't know the details of it in the US, but I would've thought the graveyard is council property. Therefore the council should be well within their rights to determine what is inappropriate to display there.Turquoise wrote:
You seem to be missing the point that a grave is private property. You can't just remove shit from it as you please regardless of your title.
And as for that previous issue regarding the deceased not having requested the flags, the responsibility of that decision goes to family members and holders of an estate.
Again, NOT the fucking government.
Even in a publicly owned cemetery, plots are sold to families, which then makes it their property because they paid for it. They are more restricted in what they can do, but it would not simply allow a councilman to remove these flags without some form of consent.
turq I knew youd get your panties in a bunch.
fuck the south. fuck the confederacy.
quit glorifying a defeated enemy.
You wanna call me fascist because I want to remove visual blights. well then, Im a fascist motherfucker.
fuck the south. fuck the confederacy.
quit glorifying a defeated enemy.
You wanna call me fascist because I want to remove visual blights. well then, Im a fascist motherfucker.
Last edited by Man With No Name (2009-04-25 08:26:01)
They're a bit of both.Turquoise wrote:
I think you mean delusional, although they probably are disillusioned too for other reasons.Poseidon wrote:
I'm not saying lock 'em up.Turquoise wrote:
...and if they do, what does it matter? As long as they aren't engaging in treason, they aren't breaking any laws.
I don't like this secession shit anymore than you, but I'm not going to support the imposition of thought crimes.
The burden of living in a free society is that you must accept the expression of unpopular and often ignorant views.
I'm saying they're disillusioned freaks.
Again, you'll get no argument from me about absurdity of secession in the modern age.
If you define respecting the freedom of speech as glorifying something, I'm guilty as charged.Man With No Name wrote:
turq I knew youd get your panties in a bunch.
fuck the south. fuck the confederacy.
quit glorifying a defeated enemy.
I notice, however, that you haven't debated my points in any remotely logical manner. Try actually debating me instead of trolling me.