Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|5965|Truthistan
It looks like the Obama's cap and trade initiative is a chip to be bartered away during the upcoming fight over the budget.

"The Obama administration says such a system would raise $646 million over 10 years while curtailing emissions of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide. Obama included the proposal in his 2010 budget bill but it's facing opposition from members of both parties."
Cap and Trade


What they are saying cap and trade does
1. raise govt tax revenue
2. Save the environment

What are they not saying

1. That cap and trade will become an inverse energy market. When oil goes up, carbon credits will go down. When oil goes down, carbon credits will go up. If you thought the spike in oil prices was a bad thing, just wait until carbon credits start being traded. speculators will be all over these, buying them up and holding off the market. they will short oil, then sell carbon credits, then short carbon credits and sell oil.

2. That cap and trade will be rife with the worst speculation and will rival the recent run up on commodity prices.

3. I suspect that the govt will maintain a system of umbrella carbon credits (think fed fund) that it could use to artificially inflate energy prices to make alternative energy more attractive to investors. So if the Wall street speculators weren't bad enough, the govt itself will be engaging in artifically increasing carbon credit market. Saving the environment sounds alright in theory but really cap and trade is going to have a real nasty impact on the economy and your wallets if they ever implement it. We regular people are going to have to basically pay twice for the energy that we use.

I understand that carbon credit trading is already in place in Europe. I wonder how its going over there?
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6496|South Florida
Nothing this administration could do would suprise me.

Seriously, they could order the beheading of anyone who doesn't pass a lie detection test saying they believe the government is great.
15 more years! 15 more years!
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6500|Global Command
They could?
Damn. Sounds pretty serious.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina
Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
The#1Spot
Member
+105|6510|byah

Turquoise wrote:

Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
Although the best fuel out there is 100% gasoline.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6687
Carbon credits didnt work in Chicago for Mayor Daley... Shocker...
http://chicagoist.com/2009/03/21/chicag … n_city.php

"But over the last two years, most of the carbon credits the city of Chicago purchased didn't reduce carbon emissions at all, experts say. Taxpayers angry over Quinn's proposed income tax hike can fume once more: they've been footing the bill for the city's regular usage of electricity over the last two years, as well as paying for more than $500,000 in carbon credits that have done nothing to fight global warming."
Love is the answer
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|5965|Truthistan

Turquoise wrote:

Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
I think the plan is to create a new false market. Just like CDO financial products, carbon credits are not a real commodity, it just an idea to create a market, trade on it, and make money. What you suggest makes more sense. What they suggest is fleecing the American public. What's sad is that lots of "sheeple" are being sold on the idea that they will be saving the earth.

Apparently Al Gore and some others are involved in this. Its "convenient" that they are standing in line to get paid by creating and promoting this false market.


Chicago Climate Exchange wiki


Chicago Climate Exchange -->this link might not work or its really slow, the hamster running on the treadmill to power the internet there must have a died from bull$shit poisoning.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS
Cap and trade is stupid. Keep it simple, just impose a carbon tax if you need a market-based method.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6732

Spark wrote:

Cap and trade is stupid. Keep it simple, just impose a carbon tax if you need a market-based method.
equally stupid
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS

usmarine wrote:

Spark wrote:

Cap and trade is stupid. Keep it simple, just impose a carbon tax if you need a market-based method.
equally stupid
At least you're being honest, and not trying to make up some false "carbon market" which ends up penalizing anyone who tries to reduce carbon emissions without a permit, thus allowing those with permits to "take up the slack" and emit more.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

The#1Spot wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
Although the best fuel out there is 100% gasoline.
For the most part, but...  oil companies certainly don't need tax breaks like we currently give them.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6376|North Carolina

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
I think the plan is to create a new false market. Just like CDO financial products, carbon credits are not a real commodity, it just an idea to create a market, trade on it, and make money. What you suggest makes more sense. What they suggest is fleecing the American public. What's sad is that lots of "sheeple" are being sold on the idea that they will be saving the earth.

Apparently Al Gore and some others are involved in this. Its "convenient" that they are standing in line to get paid by creating and promoting this false market.


Chicago Climate Exchange wiki


Chicago Climate Exchange -->this link might not work or its really slow, the hamster running on the treadmill to power the internet there must have a died from bull$shit poisoning.
Man, I knew Al Gore could be a douchebag, but damn...
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS

Turquoise wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Here's what I don't get....  Instead of all this mess about carbon credits, why not just regulate speculation more, end oil tax breaks, and create alternative energy tax breaks?
I think the plan is to create a new false market. Just like CDO financial products, carbon credits are not a real commodity, it just an idea to create a market, trade on it, and make money. What you suggest makes more sense. What they suggest is fleecing the American public. What's sad is that lots of "sheeple" are being sold on the idea that they will be saving the earth.

Apparently Al Gore and some others are involved in this. Its "convenient" that they are standing in line to get paid by creating and promoting this false market.


Chicago Climate Exchange wiki


Chicago Climate Exchange -->this link might not work or its really slow, the hamster running on the treadmill to power the internet there must have a died from bull$shit poisoning.
Man, I knew Al Gore could be a douchebag, but damn...
Al Gore should say "I'm not the spokesperson for global warming. There IS no spokesperson for global warming, only the scientists" and the shut up. If it makes him feel better, he's "done his part."
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

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