Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7019
How long till they officially tank?   Good thing they have unions that looked out for their workers...
So instead of 28 bucks and hour plus awesome benefits... they get 0 dollars and hour... and unemplyment from the govt...
I wonder if GM or whatever name they come back as.. will try to reorganize after their collapse and build a car company that is competitive and without a union?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ … 3220090226

By Kevin Krolicki and David Bailey

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp posted a loss of nearly $31 billion on Thursday for 2008 and said its auditors were likely to cast doubt on its viability as it seeks an expanded federal bailout to stay afloat.

GM burned through $5 billion in the fourth quarter and ended the year reliant on the first $4 billion in loans from the U.S. Treasury. Quarterly revenue plunged by more than a third to $30.8 billion.
Love is the answer
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6714|'Murka

They won't tank, per se. They'll enter Chapter 11, which will allow them to radically reorganize and make the existing UAW leeching contracts null and void. At which point they can re-negotiate with UAW to be on a level competitive playing field with their peers who also build cars in the US (ie, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, etc).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|6005|College Park, MD

FEOS wrote:

They won't tank, per se. They'll enter Chapter 11, which will allow them to radically reorganize and make the existing UAW leeching contracts null and void. At which point they can re-negotiate with UAW to be on a level competitive playing field with their peers who also build cars in the US (ie, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, etc).
Why the hell don't they do that now? Instead of slowly bleeding to death as it were?
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7019
Wonder what the Unions will think... lol...
BO owes them a lot... hopefully he can stroke a check for 200-300 billion and keep GM going...
it will all depend on how busy the printers are at the dept of the treasury... I heard they are working 24/7 and can't keep up...
Love is the answer
13rin
Member
+977|6782
Unions.  What a joke.  Bailouts don't work.  What the hell is it with the entitlement where everyone succeeds?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Because they can get government money to splurge while slowly bleeding to death. Or didn't the auto-industry bailout go ahead?
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6714|'Murka

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

They won't tank, per se. They'll enter Chapter 11, which will allow them to radically reorganize and make the existing UAW leeching contracts null and void. At which point they can re-negotiate with UAW to be on a level competitive playing field with their peers who also build cars in the US (ie, Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, etc).
Why the hell don't they do that now? Instead of slowly bleeding to death as it were?
Because they are legally bound by their collective bargaining agreement with the UAW unless the UAW agrees to restructure it. And guess what they have refused to do?

Short-sightedness ftw!
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6456|what

Strange that the govt. hand out is still refered to as a loan.

If GM fails your not getting that money back.

And even if they do enter chapter11 and re-structure from the ground up, does that free them from the financial obligation of paying back that loan?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

AussieReaper wrote:

Strange that the govt. hand out is still refered to as a loan.

If GM fails your not getting that money back.

And even if they do enter chapter11 and re-structure from the ground up, does that free them from the financial obligation of paying back that loan?
15 year contract to produce and maintain the federal government's required 4 door, fuel efficient car would have been a better idea.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6714|'Murka

AussieReaper wrote:

Strange that the govt. hand out is still refered to as a loan.

If GM fails your not getting that money back.

And even if they do enter chapter11 and re-structure from the ground up, does that free them from the financial obligation of paying back that loan?
Nope. They have to pay it back, regardless.

Chapter 11 doesn't negate debts (that's 13 7, I believe). It just requires debt holders to restructure debt to ensure the debtor can continue to operate while they pay back the debt.

EDIT: Even Ch 7 doesn't negate debts. It just dissolves and liquidates assets to pay creditors.

A bit more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_11

Chapter 11 is a chapter of the United States Bankruptcy Code, which permits reorganization under the bankruptcy laws of the United States. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is available to any business, whether organized as a corporation or sole proprietorship, and to individuals, although it is most prominently used by corporate entities. In contrast, Chapter 7 governs the process of a liquidation bankruptcy, while Chapter 13 provides a reorganization process for the majority of private individuals.

Last edited by FEOS (2009-02-26 17:57:07)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6456|what

FEOS wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Strange that the govt. hand out is still refered to as a loan.

If GM fails your not getting that money back.

And even if they do enter chapter11 and re-structure from the ground up, does that free them from the financial obligation of paying back that loan?
Nope. They have to pay it back, regardless.

Chapter 11 doesn't negate debts (that's 13, I believe). It just requires debt holders to restructure debt to ensure the debtor can continue to operate while they pay back the debt.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'd hate to see them collapse and take all that tax payer money with them, worse still to come back after a restructure and have no obligations.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command
They signed The Declaration of Dependence.

that's what replaced the original document.


I just wish one of those guys who snuffs out his family and then eats a bullet would direct his poison energy at politicians.


Rage is building.

This will not end well.
Karbin
Member
+42|6597
Posted by Dee-Ann Durbin | The Associated Press March 06, 2008 17:19PM
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. said Thursday that Chief Executive Rick Wagoner will earn a salary of $2.2 million in 2008, restoring his base pay to the level it was before he took a 2006 pay cut as part of the company's turnaround plan.

GM said its board of directors, which met Monday, also voted to give the company's new president and chief operating officer, Fritz Henderson, a salary of $1.8 million.

The board's action restores Wagoner's salary to the level it was from 2003 to 2005. Wagoner took a pay cut in 2006, and his salary was $1.28 million that year. GM will release Wagoner's 2007 pay level later this spring.

Both Wagoner and Henderson also were granted shares of GM stock and will make additional money if they meet internal targets for earnings, cash flow, market share and quality and warranty performance, GM spokeswoman Julie Gibson said. Gibson wouldn't reveal what those specific targets are.

Wagoner is eligible for up to $3.5 million in incentive payments and a grant of 165,563 shares of GM stock if he meets the internal targets. He will also receive 500,000 stock options that will vest over three years and 75,000 restricted stock options that will vest in three to five years.

Henderson is eligible for up to $2.4 million in incentive payments and a grant of 110,376 shares of GM stock, in addition to 250,000 stock options and 60,000 restricted options.

GM's board also voted to give Ray Young, who is replacing Henderson as executive vice president and chief financial officer, a base salary of $900,000, with an incentive payment worth up to $945,000 and 16,557 shares of GM stock. Young was also awarded stock options.

GM lost a record $38.7 billion in 2007, largely due to a charge for unused tax credits. Excluding the charges and other one-time items, the company lost $23 million. That was down from a profit of $2.2 billion in 2006.

Now....In the face of this your blaming the U.A.W and the wages at.El paided to their members....    Me smells something foul with that.
Toyota has next to no retirees to pay in N.A.
From what I've been told they never will.  Toyota doesn't have a group pension plan in the U.S.
They will match,per month, what you put into a 401k......  BUT.....   51% of the 401k MUST be invested in Toyota stock (Non-voting)
Can you say Enron?????

Last year Toyota paid it's 25 most senior executives a combined $33 million in salary and bonuses.

The entire Honda BoD receives around $13 million a year.

Some here will say the BoD of G.M and Ford should pay "What the market will bear" for the top talent.
But, when the U.A.W go's the same way........
"Greedy union"   "Over-paid nut turning monkeys"   "Company bankrupted by Union pay"

The U.A.W has already agreed to cut back wages and benefits BEFORE G.M. went to D.C. and are expected to cut more to match Toyota.

NEWS FLASH

Toyota just cut the hourly wage by another 2%

Just keep it up guys, keep pushing for the U.A.W. to play the "How low will you go" game.

I will laugh my ass off when it comes home and bites YOU in the ass with your job.

And YES....   I work for one of the Detroit three.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6884|the dank(super) side of Oregon
for my sake, the big 3 must go on.  i depend on their cheap engineering an terrible build quality to keep me in the black.  hondas and toyotas simply won't do.
Karbin
Member
+42|6597

Reciprocity wrote:

for my sake, the big 3 must go on.  i depend on their cheap engineering an terrible build quality to keep me in the black.  hondas and toyotas simply won't do.
And how are the hourlies responsible for the "Cheap engineering and terrible build quality"?

Management and the Accounting department handle the low cost engineering and also force the "Build now, fix later" mentality.
I have been told...

"I get 42 seconds to build a car. Once it's rolled, pushed, pulled off Final, I can spend six days fixing it".

From a Plant Manager.
(A car comes off the Final line it's bought off)
JahManRed
wank
+646|6931|IRELAND

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Unions.  What a joke.  Bailouts don't work.  What the hell is it with the entitlement where everyone succeeds?
Lack of unions, guarantee, the cheapest labour and maximum profits for the corporations, usually at the expense of the ppl. Lets them shit on their workforce. Outsource everything to China. Hire "temps" who can be fired or pressured into concessions. Unions are a dirty word. But maintained properly, they can be a countries stabilizing force. Globalization loving governments hate them as they can block outsourcing and cheep labour. And ultimately access to big profits. They have mounted a consistent campaign of misinformation and paranoia regarding unions. If America still has strong unions, China would not be so powerful as she is today.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6884|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Karbin wrote:

And how are the hourlies responsible for the "Cheap engineering and terrible build quality"?
i never said the hourlies are responsible for the quality problems.  i'm just hoping the domestics stay in business because it makes my job more profitable.  at 100k miles i'm still doing maintenance on a honda and the owner still loves their car.  at 60k i'm removing cylinder heads and rebuilding transmissions on any ford, dodge or chevy(except for the rebadged japanese cars) and the owner is wishing they'd never traded off their '93 accord.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6525|Brisneyland
Below is one method GM will use that would allow it to put successful entities into a separate company then the remainder would have to negotiate for bankruptcy. Seems like cheating to me. Unions arent the problem wit hAmerican car makers, its being caught out making cars no one wants.European/Japanese car makers pay workers quite well, the difference is that they succeed because they make cars people want.

Caradvice .com wrote:

A report on Reuters newsagency says that General Motors Corporation, nearing a Tuesday deadline to present a viability plan to the US government, is considering as one option a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing that would create a new company.

The plan was also reported on in the highly reputable Wall Street Journal, which said in its Saturday edition: “One plan includes a Chapter 11 filing that would assemble all of GM’s viable assets, including some US brands and international operations, into a new company.”

The newspaper said: “The undesirable assets would be liquidated or sold under protection of a bankruptcy court. Contracts with bondholders, unions, dealers and suppliers would also be reworked.”
source
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6954|USA

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

How long till they officially tank?   Good thing they have unions that looked out for their workers...
So instead of 28 bucks and hour plus awesome benefits... they get 0 dollars and hour... and unemplyment from the govt...
I wonder if GM or whatever name they come back as.. will try to reorganize after their collapse and build a car company that is competitive and without a union?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ … 3220090226

By Kevin Krolicki and David Bailey

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp posted a loss of nearly $31 billion on Thursday for 2008 and said its auditors were likely to cast doubt on its viability as it seeks an expanded federal bailout to stay afloat.

GM burned through $5 billion in the fourth quarter and ended the year reliant on the first $4 billion in loans from the U.S. Treasury. Quarterly revenue plunged by more than a third to $30.8 billion.
They shoulda failed long ago, and certainly long before they got bailout money
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina
I'm hoping Opel comes over here, because otherwise, I'm kind of fucked with owning an Astra.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7019

Karbin wrote:

Posted by Dee-Ann Durbin | The Associated Press March 06, 2008 17:19PM
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. said Thursday that Chief Executive Rick Wagoner will earn a salary of $2.2 million in 2008, restoring his base pay to the level it was before he took a 2006 pay cut as part of the company's turnaround plan.

GM said its board of directors, which met Monday, also voted to give the company's new president and chief operating officer, Fritz Henderson, a salary of $1.8 million.

The board's action restores Wagoner's salary to the level it was from 2003 to 2005. Wagoner took a pay cut in 2006, and his salary was $1.28 million that year. GM will release Wagoner's 2007 pay level later this spring.

Both Wagoner and Henderson also were granted shares of GM stock and will make additional money if they meet internal targets for earnings, cash flow, market share and quality and warranty performance, GM spokeswoman Julie Gibson said. Gibson wouldn't reveal what those specific targets are.

Wagoner is eligible for up to $3.5 million in incentive payments and a grant of 165,563 shares of GM stock if he meets the internal targets. He will also receive 500,000 stock options that will vest over three years and 75,000 restricted stock options that will vest in three to five years.

Henderson is eligible for up to $2.4 million in incentive payments and a grant of 110,376 shares of GM stock, in addition to 250,000 stock options and 60,000 restricted options.

GM's board also voted to give Ray Young, who is replacing Henderson as executive vice president and chief financial officer, a base salary of $900,000, with an incentive payment worth up to $945,000 and 16,557 shares of GM stock. Young was also awarded stock options.

GM lost a record $38.7 billion in 2007, largely due to a charge for unused tax credits. Excluding the charges and other one-time items, the company lost $23 million. That was down from a profit of $2.2 billion in 2006.

Now....In the face of this your blaming the U.A.W and the wages at.El paided to their members....    Me smells something foul with that.
Toyota has next to no retirees to pay in N.A.
From what I've been told they never will.  Toyota doesn't have a group pension plan in the U.S.
They will match,per month, what you put into a 401k......  BUT.....   51% of the 401k MUST be invested in Toyota stock (Non-voting)
Can you say Enron?????

Last year Toyota paid it's 25 most senior executives a combined $33 million in salary and bonuses.

The entire Honda BoD receives around $13 million a year.

Some here will say the BoD of G.M and Ford should pay "What the market will bear" for the top talent.
But, when the U.A.W go's the same way........
"Greedy union"   "Over-paid nut turning monkeys"   "Company bankrupted by Union pay"

The U.A.W has already agreed to cut back wages and benefits BEFORE G.M. went to D.C. and are expected to cut more to match Toyota.

NEWS FLASH

Toyota just cut the hourly wage by another 2%

Just keep it up guys, keep pushing for the U.A.W. to play the "How low will you go" game.

I will laugh my ass off when it comes home and bites YOU in the ass with your job.

And YES....   I work for one of the Detroit three.
So Rick Wagoner gets 2.2 million dollars a year... and GM is doing very poorly and not selling any cars?
Are you saying that's a good thing?

I am all for a worker making a decent wage... and i even think unions would be ok... The problem is they are a bloated uncompetitive entity now...
The uaw is going to help the workers right out of a job...
Should the govt keep giving GM/Chrsyler 50 100 200 500 billion to make sure they survive despite the fact that they are for whatever reason not selling cars?

Ford isn't asking for a bailout?  Should they be punished or praised or ?
Love is the answer
Karbin
Member
+42|6597
As with Citibank, BoA, AIG the CEO's and BoD have bonuses and incentive pay tied to positive cash flow. With the money coming in from the bridge loans, the accounting departments will class the losses separate from the loans.
The loans will be held as positive cash flow and the bonuses and incentive pays will be paided out.
At the same time, as a condition of the loans, the U.A.W. must match the wages,benefits and pensions as Toyota.
There is nothing said or asked about making the Exec pay match.
Do not believe the dollar a year B.S. made by some of the CEO's. They will still get their contracted bonuses and incentive pay. Their contracts are not subject to being opened.
The U.A.W. MUST open theirs.
Way to level the playing field.

Ford hasn't asked for a loan as they mortgaged the farm eight months before the crash and have the cash they think they need on hand.

As for not selling cars..........
Before the crash, before crude went through the roof, what was selling?
Full size Pick-up trucks, large SUV's, large body cars with even larger engines.
The Detroit 3 were making money but, with crude at $140 a barrel and the credit market meltdown...........
Remember how fast gas went up?
Detroit got caught flat footed. Hell......Chrysler was touting the return of the Hemi six months before the rise of oil and banking on oil staying low.
Ford rolled out the large engine Mustang and G.M. had plans to bring back the Camaro. The market wanted power, power. POWER.
The only ones thinking about MPG were the EPA.
Ford, G.M. and Chrysler were killing off their small cars, not a big enough profit per unit sold. Not that they weren't making a profit on them, just not a big enough one when compared to trucks and SUV's. And that was what was selling.
On top of that, Detroit has never liked the small, fuel efficient car. They think that they don't make enough on them with such a tight market.
Toyota and Honda look at it a bit differently.
They make their profit, not on a per unit but, on a volume base.

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