Wreckognize
Member
+294|6788
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e … 733638.ece

MONKEYS and apes have a sense of morality and the rudimentary ability to tell right from wrong, according to new research.

In a series of studies scientists have found that monkeys and apes can make judgments about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. They even appear to have consciences and the ability to remember obligations.

The research implies that morality is not a uniquely human quality and suggests it arose through evolution. That could mean the strength of our consciences is partly determined by our genes.

Such findings are likely to antagonise fundamentalist religious groups. Some believe the ability to form moral judgments is a God-given quality that sets humans apart.

The scientists say, however, that the evidence is clear. “I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals,” said Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University in Georgia in the United States.

In papers at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) this weekend de Waal described experiments on monkeys and apes to see if they understood the idea of fairness.

The animals were asked to perform a set of simple tasks and then rewarded with food or affection. The rewards were varied, seemingly at random. De Waal found the animals had an acute sense of fairness and objected strongly when others were rewarded more than themselves for the same task, often sulking and refusing to take part any further.

Another study looked at altruism in chimps - and found they were often willing to help others even when there was no obvious reward. “Chimpanzees spontaneously help both humans and each other in carefully controlled tests,” said de Waal.

Other researchers, said de Waal, have found the same qualities in capuchin monkeys, which also show “spontaneous prosocial tendencies”, meaning they are keen to share food and other gifts with other monkeys, for the pleasure of giving.

“Everything else being equal, they prefer to reward a companion together with themselves rather than just themselves,” he said. “The research suggests that giving is self-rewarding for monkeys.”

Related research found primates can remember individuals who have done them a favour and will make an effort to repay them.

De Waal, who has written a book called Primates and Philosophers, said morality appeared to have evolved in the same way as organs such as the eye and the heart, through natural selection.

The debate over whether animals can tell right from wrong and make moral choices dates back to Charles Darwin, originator of the theory of evolution.

He suggested that when sexual reproduction first evolved it forced animals to develop codes of behaviour that became built into their genes. In humans these instincts developed into a sense of right and wrong. This fitted with his view that humans were derived from animals - a view fiercely opposed by the church at the time.

The big question now is why, alone among the primates, humans have developed morality to such a high level. It implies that humans were once subjected to some kind of powerful evolutionary pressure to develop a conscience.

Some researchers believe we could owe our consciences to climate change and, in particular, to a period of intense global warming between 50,000 and 800,000 years ago. The proto-humans living in the forests had to adapt to living on hostile open plains, where they would have been easy prey for formidable predators such as big cats.

This would have forced them to devise rules for hunting in groups and sharing food.

Christopher Boehm, director of the Jane Goodall Research Center, part of the University of Southern California’s anthropology department, believes such humans devised codes to stop bigger, stronger males hogging all the food.

“To ensure fair meat distribution, hunting bands had to gang up physically against alpha males,” he said. This theory has been borne out by studies of contemporary hunter-gatherer tribes.

In research released at the AAAS he argued that under such a system those who broke the rules would have been killed, their “amoral” genes lost to posterity. By contrast, those who abided by the rules would have had many more children.

Other studies have confirmed that the strength of a person's conscience depends partly on their genes. Several researchers have shown, for example, that the children of habitual criminals will often become criminals too - even when they have had no contact with their biological parents.
Evolution anyone?
El Beardo
steel woolly mammoth
+150|6023|Gulf Coast

Interesting but they still throw their poop.
andy12
Banned
+52|6960

Wreckognize wrote:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5733638.ece

MONKEYS and apes have a sense of morality and the rudimentary ability to tell right from wrong, according to new research.

In a series of studies scientists have found that monkeys and apes can make judgments about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. They even appear to have consciences and the ability to remember obligations.

The research implies that morality is not a uniquely human quality and suggests it arose through evolution. That could mean the strength of our consciences is partly determined by our genes.

Such findings are likely to antagonise fundamentalist religious groups. Some believe the ability to form moral judgments is a God-given quality that sets humans apart.

The scientists say, however, that the evidence is clear. “I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals,” said Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University in Georgia in the United States.

In papers at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) this weekend de Waal described experiments on monkeys and apes to see if they understood the idea of fairness.

The animals were asked to perform a set of simple tasks and then rewarded with food or affection. The rewards were varied, seemingly at random. De Waal found the animals had an acute sense of fairness and objected strongly when others were rewarded more than themselves for the same task, often sulking and refusing to take part any further.

Another study looked at altruism in chimps - and found they were often willing to help others even when there was no obvious reward. “Chimpanzees spontaneously help both humans and each other in carefully controlled tests,” said de Waal.

Other researchers, said de Waal, have found the same qualities in capuchin monkeys, which also show “spontaneous prosocial tendencies”, meaning they are keen to share food and other gifts with other monkeys, for the pleasure of giving.

“Everything else being equal, they prefer to reward a companion together with themselves rather than just themselves,” he said. “The research suggests that giving is self-rewarding for monkeys.”

Related research found primates can remember individuals who have done them a favour and will make an effort to repay them.

De Waal, who has written a book called Primates and Philosophers, said morality appeared to have evolved in the same way as organs such as the eye and the heart, through natural selection.

The debate over whether animals can tell right from wrong and make moral choices dates back to Charles Darwin, originator of the theory of evolution.

He suggested that when sexual reproduction first evolved it forced animals to develop codes of behaviour that became built into their genes. In humans these instincts developed into a sense of right and wrong. This fitted with his view that humans were derived from animals - a view fiercely opposed by the church at the time.

The big question now is why, alone among the primates, humans have developed morality to such a high level. It implies that humans were once subjected to some kind of powerful evolutionary pressure to develop a conscience.

Some researchers believe we could owe our consciences to climate change and, in particular, to a period of intense global warming between 50,000 and 800,000 years ago. The proto-humans living in the forests had to adapt to living on hostile open plains, where they would have been easy prey for formidable predators such as big cats.

This would have forced them to devise rules for hunting in groups and sharing food.

Christopher Boehm, director of the Jane Goodall Research Center, part of the University of Southern California’s anthropology department, believes such humans devised codes to stop bigger, stronger males hogging all the food.

“To ensure fair meat distribution, hunting bands had to gang up physically against alpha males,” he said. This theory has been borne out by studies of contemporary hunter-gatherer tribes.

In research released at the AAAS he argued that under such a system those who broke the rules would have been killed, their “amoral” genes lost to posterity. By contrast, those who abided by the rules would have had many more children.

Other studies have confirmed that the strength of a person's conscience depends partly on their genes. Several researchers have shown, for example, that the children of habitual criminals will often become criminals too - even when they have had no contact with their biological parents.
Evolution anyone?
As in the other thread, morality is not evolution in action. It doesn't let the strongest survive, it's a man made ideal that was created for various reasons, one being controlling people easier.

The monkeys don't actually think "Better not mate with that chick" because it would be rape, and by our standards, rape is wrong. They weigh up the chances of a fight occuring with other males or the female, etc, as with all animals.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6935|949

Did a monkey tell the scientists what the monkey's morals were?  I am skeptic that an obvious ability to reason when making decisions could be confused with morality.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7071
They could use some of these monkeys in politics
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|6943|Your moms bedroom
wat



on second thought

Last edited by Locoloki (2009-02-16 16:59:32)

Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6993|Tampa Bay Florida
Morality = stronger, more peaceful society = survival
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6748|The Land of Scott Walker

DrPeePeeFace wrote:

Interesting but they still throw their poop.
this
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6297|Truthistan
This isn't that new,

"In a laboratory setting, macaques were fed if they were willing to pull a chain and electrically shock an unrelated macaque whose agony was in plain view through a one-way mirror. Otherwise, they starved. After learning the ropes, the monkeys frequently refused to pull the chain; in one experiment only 13% would do so -- 87% preferred to go hungry. One macaque went without food for nearly two weeks rather than hurt its fellow. Macaques who had themselves been shocked in previous experiments were even less willing to pull the chain. The relative social status or gender of the macaques had little bearing on their reluctance to hurt others. " from here

I have little doubt that some of the fatties in our society would resort to canibalism rather than go without food for two weeks.
It is man's cognitive abilities that permits him to rationalize doing the immoral if it is to his benefit. and then there some people who are just plain psychopaths ans sociopaths who don't have any empathy whatsoever.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6456|what

Diesel_dyk wrote:

This isn't that new
Exactly, I myself have often argued with religious typed about morality and I always go back to the examples of morals shared between apes.

If you offer an ape a peanut every time he touches your hand, he'll be fine with it. When the next ape does the same and also receives a peanut they are both happy. If however you start giving one ape a grape rather than a peanut (they are much more happy about getting a grape) the one getting the peanut suddenly loses all interest in the peanuts you offer and wants to see a grape and fairness. That ape will then touch your hand, see the peanut and flatly reject it. The now grape eating ape soon learns this also, and so touches your hand for not only themselves to get the grape, but also starts giving the other ape grapes, to make things balanced.

One of my favourite experiments of all time.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command
I have proof it aint so.
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6646|California

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Did a monkey tell the scientists what the monkey's morals were?  I am skeptic that an obvious ability to reason when making decisions could be confused with morality.
Obvious to you. You obviously didn't read the whole thing considering they explained how they tested this subject. Also read the peanut and grape experiment some posts above mine.

ATG wrote:

I have proof it aint so.
I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.

Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2009-02-16 19:06:31)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command

xBlackPantherx wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have proof it aint so.
I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
What do you think?
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6646|California

ATG wrote:

xBlackPantherx wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have proof it aint so.
I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
What do you think?
Eh, just from what I've seen I'd say you were being serious.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6884|the dank(super) side of Oregon

DrPeePeeFace wrote:

Interesting but they still throw their poop.
and humans don't?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command

xBlackPantherx wrote:

ATG wrote:

xBlackPantherx wrote:


I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
What do you think?
Eh, just from what I've seen I'd say you were being serious.
okay, citing a EE thread as proof of...oh wait, I am wasting my time
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|6880|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!

BN wrote:

They could use some of these monkeys in politics
They already do it tbh
Warhammer
Member
+18|5984
Wolves have morals. Chimps eat specks off of other chimps to clean others. What is such a big deal. Can they build a building like ours?

Last edited by Warhammer (2009-02-16 22:02:41)

El Beardo
steel woolly mammoth
+150|6023|Gulf Coast

Reciprocity wrote:

DrPeePeeFace wrote:

Interesting but they still throw their poop.
and humans don't?
http://www.winknews.com/news/weird/38531837.html


touché
BVC
Member
+325|6998
A lot of people in this thread are missing the point.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX
So monkeys are more evolved than Republicans?
I had a feeling about that.
Fuck Israel
The A W S M F O X
I Won't Deny It
+172|5987|SQUID
chimps are rebelling they predicted this stuff in planet of the apes
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6935|949

xBlackPantherx wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Did a monkey tell the scientists what the monkey's morals were?  I am skeptic that an obvious ability to reason when making decisions could be confused with morality.
Obvious to you. You obviously didn't read the whole thing considering they explained how they tested this subject. Also read the peanut and grape experiment some posts above mine.

ATG wrote:

I have proof it aint so.
I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
But choosing a peanut or grape for a fellow ape isn't an example in morals, it's an example of an ape getting what it wants for itself and its friend.  For all we know giving a fellow ape a grape may increase the likelihood that ape (A) picks the fleas out of ape (B)'s fur.  All these experiments show is that an ape can make a reasoned decision that may be rational based off our (human) morals.  This experiment doesn't show that apes have sense of morals because we aren't able to tell what (if any) morals apes have.  All we can do is compare action to our own action and try to create a link.
morbid
Member
+1|5853
Comparing grapes to peanuts is like comparing apples to.... lawnmowers.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7069|Cambridge (UK)

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

xBlackPantherx wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Did a monkey tell the scientists what the monkey's morals were?  I am skeptic that an obvious ability to reason when making decisions could be confused with morality.
Obvious to you. You obviously didn't read the whole thing considering they explained how they tested this subject. Also read the peanut and grape experiment some posts above mine.

ATG wrote:

I have proof it aint so.
I'm just curious, are you serious? There are so many things I could say that would ruin that post, but I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
But choosing a peanut or grape for a fellow ape isn't an example in morals, it's an example of an ape getting what it wants for itself and its friend.  For all we know giving a fellow ape a grape may increase the likelihood that ape (A) picks the fleas out of ape (B)'s fur.  All these experiments show is that an ape can make a reasoned decision that may be rational based off our (human) morals.  This experiment doesn't show that apes have sense of morals because we aren't able to tell what (if any) morals apes have.  All we can do is compare action to our own action and try to create a link.
That is exactly what morals are.

Modes of behaviour that encourage social cohesion.

That they don't codify those modes of behaviours in the way we do, does not make those said modes of behaviour not morals.

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