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2009-02-10 08:59:58
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command
Another Bush legacy is empowering liberals to acheive every socialist wetdream they have ever had.
Okay, say whatever you want about what W did or didn't acheive, but by being such a dunce he created a mandate. There was a vacuum of leadership under his watch. People are hungry for change alright, but the shit coming down the pike is going to blow your mind. It is happening because of george bush. He led us in to a place where we need to be rescued from.

And democrats are drooling with hunger serving us all a poison plate.

The bill basically rewrites our system. It is staggering in scope and cost. Along with fiscal ' stimulus ' comes scary changes and controls over doctors and hospitals.

The following is in regards to language in Bill Number H.R.1 for the 111th Congress http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc111/h … C3DF0041A4

What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.

Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties.  “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … zfDxfbwhzs



We are fucked.
2009-02-10 09:12:06
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6750|Chicago, IL
My generation thanks yours for the massive debt you'll be leaving us




maybe I'll just follow my roommate back to Taiwan when I graduate...
2009-02-10 09:36:25
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6297|Truthistan
Getting rid of wasteful spending in healthcare.

That might mean getting rid of those stupid hoveround commericals... what a waste of taxpayers money those things are.
You can walk, its good for you, but no you're a lazy pos and want a personalized motor chair... and as the commerical says best of all the medicare will pay for it. pos! pos! pos!!!!!....

Anyway, remember 50 million people without healthcare = a broken market, and wallstreet has taught us that broken markets need government intervention. Hopefully the US will join the rest of the modernized world and move away from private health insurance. We are a long way from a govt run HMO that advocates killing patients by denying them healthcare, right now that is the health insurance companies job. Maybe if the govt takes over, they will make a mess out of denying people coverage by actually covering more people, what a blunder that would be. What a notion, people surviving because they might actually get medical attention and by medical attention I mean getting a cure.

Right now the medical industry is pharmaceutical heavy with strong bend towards alleviating symptoms and calling symptoms like high blood pressure a disease. The pharmaceutical schpeel ""got a symptom" here take this pill, it won't cure you but it might let you live longer so you can take more pills and make me more money."

If we can get fat lazy asses out of their hoverounds, away from the buffet, get them walking, get them off pills and get them eating right ala "the biggest loser" then a government run health care system might not be that bad. I've watched the show the biggest loser, and some of those people are pill free after only 4 or 5 weeks of exercise. Its unbelievable how lazy and messed up the US "healthcare" system is -its certainly no where near the best in the world that's for sure and that goes to prove that govts can do it better than the private sector. And think of the economic disadvantage the US is in because of the sickened population and overbearing costs of privatized Healthcare "symptom-care." That right wing myth that the govt can't do anything is such a joke, I guess people will believe anything if they pop enough pills.
2009-02-10 11:27:14
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6904|132 and Bush

1 week, 3 days ago Kmarion wrote:

The Dems just added 10 million more ppl to government healthcare and you didn't even see it .

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 … 022687.php

Sneaky.
What's worse then surrendering financial control to DC? Surrendering your health... giving physical control.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-02-10 11:35:38
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Kmarion wrote:

1 week, 3 days ago Kmarion wrote:

The Dems just added 10 million more ppl to government healthcare and you didn't even see it .

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 … 022687.php

Sneaky.
What's worse then surrendering financial control to DC? Surrendering your health... giving physical control.
Like surrendering your health to a insurence company is any better ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-02-10 11:38:38
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6904|132 and Bush

Varegg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

1 week, 3 days ago Kmarion wrote:

The Dems just added 10 million more ppl to government healthcare and you didn't even see it .

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 … 022687.php

Sneaky.
What's worse then surrendering financial control to DC? Surrendering your health... giving physical control.
Like surrendering your health to a insurence company is any better ...
It is when you've got the choice to shop around. Last time I checked taxes weren't voluntary.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-02-10 14:23:40
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6297|Truthistan

Kmarion wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What's worse then surrendering financial control to DC? Surrendering your health... giving physical control.
Like surrendering your health to a insurence company is any better ...
It is when you've got the choice to shop around. Last time I checked taxes weren't voluntary.
Freedom to sleep under a bridge isn't really freedom, its more like being discarded.
2009-02-10 14:43:54
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina
I think Diesel's right on this one.  The privatized system is rather fucked up mostly because of things like insurance.

If nothing else, we should socialize health insurance.  I could see a hybrid system working -- with privatized care but socialized insurance.
2009-02-10 15:26:23
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7071
In Australia we have both.

Socialised and Private.

You receive a tax break for having private for each year you have it.

I actually got taxed extra because I never had private insurance and turned 31.

Annually, you pay 1.5% of your taxable income as a medicare levy. Wages are quite high in Australia so no not sure this system would work in a lot of places.
2009-02-10 15:28:11
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6904|132 and Bush

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Like surrendering your health to a insurence company is any better ...
It is when you've got the choice to shop around. Last time I checked taxes weren't voluntary.
Freedom to sleep under a bridge isn't really freedom, its more like being discarded.
Odd how I've manage to avoid that in all of my glorious freedom. To say you've been discarded is to admit you need someone else to make your way. That's not freedom, that is treating people like children. It's saying that you aren't good enough to succeed on your own. I realize that sometimes down an out isn't always the result of bad choices, but we've got safety nets. Improving on those nets does not automatically equal  'Nationalized Healthcare'. If you need help finding free local healthcare options I'll provide a list of state health organizations.

@ Turq.. . Socialized medicine has NEVER been successful on our scale. It's a nice thought but some of us have to be realistic. Healthcare reform can come in many different ways. My main contention is that the only real success will be in the choices the States make. With our diversity it is imperative that it is managed locally.

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-02-10 15:31:53
Aries_37
arrivederci frog
+368|6878|London

BN wrote:

In Australia we have both.

Socialised and Private.

You receive a tax break for having private for each year you have it.

I actually got taxed extra because I never had private insurance and turned 31.

Annually, you pay 1.5% of your taxable income as a medicare levy. Wages are quite high in Australia so no not sure this system would work in a lot of places.
Sounds like a good system.
2009-02-10 16:07:41
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6297|Truthistan

Kmarion wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It is when you've got the choice to shop around. Last time I checked taxes weren't voluntary.
Freedom to sleep under a bridge isn't really freedom, its more like being discarded.
Odd how I've manage to avoid that in all of my glorious freedom. To say you've been discarded is to admit you need someone else to make your way. That's not freedom, that is treating people like children. It's saying that you aren't good enough to succeed on your own. I realize that sometimes down an out isn't always the result of bad choices, but we've got safety nets. Improving on those nets does not automatically equal  'Nationalized Healthcare'. If you need help finding free local healthcare options I'll provide a list of state health organizations.

@ Turq.. . Socialized medicine has NEVER been successful on our scale. It's a nice thought but some of us have to be realistic. Healthcare reform can come in many different ways. My main contention is that the only real success will be in the choices the States make. With our diversity it is imperative that it is managed locally.

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
The freedom to sleep under a bridge is an old saying that refers to the illusion of choice or the illusion of freedom. There is no real choice here if the choice is between insurance company A and insurance company B. I choose neither, I choose govt C. you say that the govt would be treating people like children, fine, it would still be a far sight better than an insurance company treating people like a commodity where denial of healthcare = profit. We need less parasites in this country and more people who provide valuable and helpful services to the people.

And the reference to states rights is really a conservative rear guard action to prevent any movement in this area at all. Just look at the CHIPS program in Texas, the federal govt had the money available but the Texas decided not to fund it. We really don't need that kind of inaction. We should have a national program funded by the federal govt, with the rules set up by the federal govt. US citizenship should have some meaning in a national sense and the states can STFU on this one.
2009-02-10 16:13:49
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

@ Turq.. . Socialized medicine has NEVER been successful on our scale. It's a nice thought but some of us have to be realistic. Healthcare reform can come in many different ways. My main contention is that the only real success will be in the choices the States make. With our diversity it is imperative that it is managed locally.

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
That's why I suggested simply socializing the insurance.  It would be a nice compromise.
2009-02-10 16:28:02
Aries_37
arrivederci frog
+368|6878|London

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:


Freedom to sleep under a bridge isn't really freedom, its more like being discarded.
Odd how I've manage to avoid that in all of my glorious freedom. To say you've been discarded is to admit you need someone else to make your way. That's not freedom, that is treating people like children. It's saying that you aren't good enough to succeed on your own. I realize that sometimes down an out isn't always the result of bad choices, but we've got safety nets. Improving on those nets does not automatically equal  'Nationalized Healthcare'. If you need help finding free local healthcare options I'll provide a list of state health organizations.

@ Turq.. . Socialized medicine has NEVER been successful on our scale. It's a nice thought but some of us have to be realistic. Healthcare reform can come in many different ways. My main contention is that the only real success will be in the choices the States make. With our diversity it is imperative that it is managed locally.

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
The freedom to sleep under a bridge is an old saying that refers to the illusion of choice or the illusion of freedom. There is no real choice here if the choice is between insurance company A and insurance company B. I choose neither, I choose govt C. you say that the govt would be treating people like children, fine, it would still be a far sight better than an insurance company treating people like a commodity where denial of healthcare = profit. We need less parasites in this country and more people who provide valuable and helpful services to the people.

And the reference to states rights is really a conservative rear guard action to prevent any movement in this area at all. Just look at the CHIPS program in Texas, the federal govt had the money available but the Texas decided not to fund it. We really don't need that kind of inaction. We should have a national program funded by the federal govt, with the rules set up by the federal govt. US citizenship should have some meaning in a national sense and the states can STFU on this one.
The funny thing is, america has some of the best trained doctors and most advance equipment in the world. But because doctors act to maximize profits the standard of care in america is terrible. They aim for a high turnover rate at the cost of qulaity of care. From a medical standpoint it's disgusting, healthcare is one thing that shouldn't be humped by capitalism. Can't remember exact figures but it was something like 100k+ deaths due to lack of medical coverage. Medicare and medicaid just don't do enough when it comes to delivering affordable and accessible healthcare.
2009-02-10 16:31:16
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7071

Kmarion wrote:

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
So whats the problem? Lack of funding? Poor administration?
2009-02-10 16:37:20
Aries_37
arrivederci frog
+368|6878|London

BN wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
So whats the problem? Lack of funding? Poor administration?
Greedy and immoral medical industry, lobbyists keeping insurance prices skyhigh etc. etc. Basically they need reform. The only people who would be happy with it are the ones who have good coverage from their job/ can afford and are willing to pay for it (which despite what anyone says shouldn't be the case with healthcare, we're talking life sustaining treament not cosmetic surgery here). It should be a right not a commodity.
2009-02-10 16:43:45
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7071
I just want to get a scope of the US system without watching Sicko.

Can a US citizen walk into a hospital and receive healthcare and not have to pay?

Do you need a card or ID or something?
2009-02-10 16:52:04
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

BN wrote:

I just want to get a scope of the US system without watching Sicko.

Can a US citizen walk into a hospital and receive healthcare and not have to pay?

Do you need a card or ID or something?
If you go to the ER, yes.

If you don't go to the ER, no, except in certain states that have more comprehensive programs.

A lot of the access to care varies by state here.

I'd also like to add that you still have to pay for an ER visit, but some people simply don't pay (like the really poor or illegals).

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-02-10 16:53:16)

2009-02-10 17:33:22
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6297|Truthistan

Turquoise wrote:

BN wrote:

I just want to get a scope of the US system without watching Sicko.

Can a US citizen walk into a hospital and receive healthcare and not have to pay?

Do you need a card or ID or something?
If you go to the ER, yes.

If you don't go to the ER, no, except in certain states that have more comprehensive programs.

A lot of the access to care varies by state here.

I'd also like to add that you still have to pay for an ER visit, but some people simply don't pay (like the really poor or illegals).
Ditto to what Turq said

Plus even if you have insurance and for example  go in for a broken arm. The insurance only covers so much. You will still get multiple bills from the radiologist, the x-ray place, the doctor who set the cast and the hospital where you went. And each party who bills you plays a game with you where they send a bill out for the whole amount hoping that you will pay the full amount so that they will collect from you and then collect again from the insurance company. And god forbid you need surgery on that arm cause then you have to also pay bills for the surgeon, the anthetist, and the hopsital stay.

Private health insurance is not the utopia that some make it out to be. Even people who do have good insurance can and do go bankrupt with all the extra billing.
2009-02-10 17:55:24
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7071
In Australia i can break my arm, have it xrayed and plastered which is included in the medicare levy.
I can visit my GP as often as i like included in levy.
If my appendix is about to burst then I can go to a public hospital included in levy.
If it is not about to burst but I want it out, i would need to go private.


With a population of 305million, how can you offer universal healthcare to everyone?

Is there any desire to?
2009-02-10 18:48:22
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6904|132 and Bush

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Freedom to sleep under a bridge isn't really freedom, its more like being discarded.
Odd how I've manage to avoid that in all of my glorious freedom. To say you've been discarded is to admit you need someone else to make your way. That's not freedom, that is treating people like children. It's saying that you aren't good enough to succeed on your own. I realize that sometimes down an out isn't always the result of bad choices, but we've got safety nets. Improving on those nets does not automatically equal  'Nationalized Healthcare'. If you need help finding free local healthcare options I'll provide a list of state health organizations.

@ Turq.. . Socialized medicine has NEVER been successful on our scale. It's a nice thought but some of us have to be realistic. Healthcare reform can come in many different ways. My main contention is that the only real success will be in the choices the States make. With our diversity it is imperative that it is managed locally.

Guess what BN, you might want to take a seat for this one, we have both also.
The freedom to sleep under a bridge is an old saying that refers to the illusion of choice or the illusion of freedom. There is no real choice here if the choice is between insurance company A and insurance company B. I choose neither, I choose govt C. you say that the govt would be treating people like children, fine, it would still be a far sight better than an insurance company treating people like a commodity where denial of healthcare = profit. We need less parasites in this country and more people who provide valuable and helpful services to the people.

And the reference to states rights is really a conservative rear guard action to prevent any movement in this area at all. Just look at the CHIPS program in Texas, the federal govt had the money available but the Texas decided not to fund it. We really don't need that kind of inaction. We should have a national program funded by the federal govt, with the rules set up by the federal govt. US citizenship should have some meaning in a national sense and the states can STFU on this one.
I'd like to meet you guys in the corner and rub one out to the idea of free healthcare for all. But that bitch of whore I call logic gets in the way. The only illusion here is your idea of a life long guarantee. The government can not coddle everyone indefinitely. It is simply unsustainable, especially here. Anyone with the slightest amount of knowledge in United States government efficiency can see that. The worst kind of parasites are the ones we have elected. Skimming off of the top, ignoring our borders, and pushing through laws that only a monkey would agree with. You have way too much faith in government. I on the other hand have been paying attention to what our "leaders" are (in?)capable of.

States have a national sense. Pick up the constitution every once in awhile and read the part about the common defense. The idea that there is some sort of deficiency in a sense of nationality is so absurd it's laughable. The position that the way to accomplish unity is by picking my pocket to pay for your boo boo's is ab-so-fucking-lutely hilarious. However, the comedy gold comes in the belief that government managed industries here in the US aren't about profit also.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-02-10 19:04:35
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6790|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
I am pretty sure we will be living in a 3rd World Nation in 10yrs.
2009-02-10 19:08:44
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7019
Why nationalized healthcare won't work....
The Govt can't run a couple of restaurants... much less healthcare for the whole US

  Senate Votes To Privatize Its Failing Restaurants...
Year after year, decade upon decade, the U.S. Senate's network of restaurants has lost staggering amounts of money -- more than $18 million since 1993, according to one report, and an estimated $2 million this year alone, according to another
....
The financial condition of the world's most exclusive dining hall and its affiliated Capitol Hill restaurants, cafeterias and coffee shops has become so dire that, without a $250,000 subsidy from taxpayers, the Senate won't make payroll next month.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01765.html

It would be great if everyone had healthcare... and it makes me upset to think anyone is unable to get help
but like others have said... the hospital won't turn you away... you can go and give a fake name like a lot of illegals do and get treatment...

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2009-02-10 19:09:58)

Love is the answer
2009-02-10 19:14:04
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7065

SgtHeihn wrote:

I am pretty sure we will be living in a 3rd World Nation in 10yrs.
you want to start a warlord faction with me?
2009-02-10 19:34:23
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6790|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

usmarine wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

I am pretty sure we will be living in a 3rd World Nation in 10yrs.
you want to start a warlord faction with me?
Sure, we need to find a good store of go-juice!

 

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