blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|6949
Kara Neumann, 11, had grown so weak that she could not walk or speak. Her parents, who believe that God alone has the ability to heal the sick, prayed for her recovery but did not take her to a doctor.After an aunt from California called the sheriff’s department here, frantically pleading that the sick child be rescued, an ambulance arrived at the Neumann’s rural home on the outskirts of Wausau and rushed Kara to the hospital. She was pronounced dead on arrival.The county coroner ruled that she had died from diabetic ketoacidosis resulting from undiagnosed and untreated juvenile diabetes. The condition occurs when the body fails to produce insulin, which leads to severe dehydration and impairment of muscle, lung and heart function.

“Basically everything stops,” said Dr. Louis Philipson, who directs the diabetes center at the University of Chicago Medical Center, explaining what occurs in patients who do not know or “are in denial that they have diabetes.”

About a month after Kara’s death last March, the Marathon County state attorney, Jill Falstad, brought charges of reckless endangerment against her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann. Despite the Neumanns’ claim that the charges violated their constitutional right to religious freedom, Judge Vincent Howard of Marathon County Circuit Court ordered Ms. Neumann to stand trial on May 14, and Mr. Neumann on June 23. If convicted, each faces up to 25 years in prison.“The free exercise clause of the First Amendment protects religious belief,” the judge wrote in his ruling, “but not necessarily conduct.”

Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”

About 300 children have died in the United States in the last 25 years after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, said Rita Swan, executive director of Children’s Health Care Is a Legal Duty, a group based in Iowa that advocates punishment for parents who do not seek medical help when their children need it. Criminal codes in 30 states, including Wisconsin, provide some form of protection for practitioners of faith healing in cases of child neglect and other matters, protection that Ms. Swan’s group opposes.


Investigators said the Neumanns last took Kara to a doctor when she was 3. According to a police report, the girl had lost the strength to speak the day before she died. “Kara laid down and was unable to move her mouth,” the report said, “and merely made moaning noises and moved her eyes back and forth.”

The courts have ordered regular medical checks for the couple’s other three children, ages 13 to 16, and Judge Howard ordered all the parties in the case not to speak to members of the news media. Neither Ms. Falstad nor the defense lawyers, Gene Linehan and Jay Kronenwetter, would agree to be interviewed.

The Neumanns, who had operated a coffee shop, Monkey Mo’s, in this middle-class suburb in the North Woods, are known locally as followers of an online faith outreach group called Unleavened Bread Ministries, run by a preacher, David Eells. The site shares stories of faith healing and talks about the end of the world.

An essay on the site signed Pastor Bob states that the Bible calls for healing by faith alone. “Jesus never sent anyone to a doctor or a hospital,” the essay says. “Jesus offered healing by one means only! Healing was by faith.”

A link from the site, helptheneumanns.com, asserts that the couple is being persecuted and “charged with the crime of praying.” The site also allows people to contribute to a legal fund for the Neumanns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/us/21faith.html?_r=3
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum
good. religion should have no place in medicine.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command
Like the VT killings;

consider those 300 or so a sacrifice on the Alter of Freedom.

If you have gun rights, you will have occasional mass killings. If you have religious freedoms, you will have snake charmers and faith healers.

Up until recently, such periodic calamities have been acceptable costs of doing the business of liberty.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6988|United States of America
Facepalm parents. You can be as devout as you want, but, speaking even as a religious person, praying doesn't do jack.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6845|Texas - Bigger than France
God must really hate those parents
Christbane
Member
+51|6538
how terrible that this child died a long painfull death for her parents beliefs.  im sure they say it was gods will for her to die this horrible prolonged death.  maybe they should be starved of food and water and told god will save them if they are worthy.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6832|Global Command

DesertFox- wrote:

Facepalm parents. You can be as devout as you want, but, speaking even as a religious person, praying doesn't do jack.
I wanna be like you.

faithless yet faithful.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6749|The Land of Scott Walker

DesertFox- wrote:

... speaking even as a religious person, praying doesn't do jack.
How devout of you ...
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

Like the VT killings;

consider those 300 or so a sacrifice on the Alter of Freedom.

If you have gun rights, you will have occasional mass killings. If you have religious freedoms, you will have snake charmers and faith healers.

Up until recently, such periodic calamities have been acceptable costs of doing the business of liberty.
VTech is a bad example, because the campus doesn't allow people to have guns with them.  If it did, Cho would have probably gotten his ass shot after the first few murders.

EDIT: To be more clear, VTech is an example of what happens when you limit freedoms rather than promoting them.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-01-27 17:09:36)

Mitch
16 more years
+877|6829|South Florida
As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
15 more years! 15 more years!
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5889

Mitch wrote:

As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
Good Job continuing the stereotype.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum

Mitch wrote:

As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
1) you're not the biggest
2) stop spouting shite you think will get you rep/karma
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6829|South Florida

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
1) you're not the biggest
2) stop spouting shite you think will get you rep/karma
my rep is already perminently ruined
i havent gotten a karma in like a week.
karmas been ruined since the days of temp bf2s which had no karma, anyways.
15 more years! 15 more years!
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum

Mitch wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
1) you're not the biggest
2) stop spouting shite you think will get you rep/karma
my rep is already perminently ruined
i havent gotten a karma in like a week.
karmas been ruined since the days of temp bf2s which had no karma, anyways.
But still you talk like a massive conservative, when truth is your about 17, and just playing to the educated crowd.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
xBlackPantherx
Grow up, or die
+142|6646|California
This is no worse then premeditated murder and those parents should get the death penalty. No, worse. Life in prison. Separate prisons.

EDIT:

FatherTed wrote:

Mitch wrote:

FatherTed wrote:


1) you're not the biggest
2) stop spouting shite you think will get you rep/karma
my rep is already perminently ruined
i havent gotten a karma in like a week.
karmas been ruined since the days of temp bf2s which had no karma, anyways.
But still you talk like a massive conservative, when truth is your about 17, and just playing to the educated crowd.
And honestly you're just being a hypocrite while, at the same time, being a stereotypical fundamentalist about ages and people in general. So if anything, you should just stop talking down upon other people who aren't exactly like you. Awesome, thanks.

Last edited by xBlackPantherx (2009-01-27 21:14:13)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX
Lock em up, putting mumbo-jumbo and imaginary beings before their kids life.
Fuck Israel
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,060|7075|PNW

Imposition of religious beliefs and acts does not freedom of religion make...

Edit:

FatherTed wrote:

good. religion should have no place in medicine.
I don't have a problem with it, provided it's accompanied by proper medicine. Let the Bible belt perform laying of hands if they want. Even if other people don't believe in it, I could argue that it can be an effective placebo.

xBlackPantherx wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

But still you talk like a massive conservative, when truth is your about 17, and just playing to the educated crowd.
And honestly you're just being a hypocrite while, at the same time, being a stereotypical fundamentalist about ages and people in general. So if anything, you should just stop talking down upon other people who aren't exactly like you. Awesome, thanks.
/applause

I've hated age-related intellectual bigotry since before I even got around to reading Lord of the Rings in gradeschool.

uevjHEYFFQ wrote:

Mitch wrote:

As the biggest atheist here, i say simply (and you may quote this for future generations to use)

Researchers and scientists are your god. Doctors are your Jesus. Medicine is your exorcism, and luck is your miracle.
Good Job continuing the stereotype.
Yeah, thanks Mitch, for imposing your (non)-religious beliefs on me.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2009-01-28 00:15:17)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6714|'Murka

Regardless of their reasoning for what they did, they neglected their child.

If I beat my child because God said "spare the whip, spoil the child"...I'm still a child abuser.

It's not a religious freedom issue.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Warhammer
Member
+18|5984
You are going to have nutjobs out there. It happens everywhere even non-religious.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6803|so randum
sorry mitch, i think i've been readin too many of tariques post.

apologies
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7039|Salt Lake City

I say let them do what they want.  Bible thumpers would raise more bible thumpers.  I say we let them kill themselves off one generation at a time.
BVC
Member
+325|6999
Isn't there a christian saying "god helps those who help themselves"?

Last edited by Pubic (2009-01-28 13:32:37)

Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6853|UK

Something like that.  I dont think, if there is a God, he intended you disregard the brain he gave you but meh.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6594|Éire
"Take two of these and say five 'Hail Mary's' and things should clear up in a few days... if the problem persists come back to me and I'll write you a prescription for some 'Our Fathers'."
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

... speaking even as a religious person, praying doesn't do jack.
How devout of you ...
There's nothing wrong with being devout but still being practical.

I mean, c'mon...  We all know it takes more than prayer to get something done.  Remember the "God helps those that help themselves" thing?

I'm obviously not a Christian, but if I were, that's how I'd believe.

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