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2020-12-10 15:48:11
uziq
Member
+492|3450
i don't think there's a connection between cultural consumption and human behaviour. we've had this discussion umpteen times with macbeth when he's in wannabe tipper gore mode, warning about the predations of rap music and music videos on good catholic children. people can consume fucked up things without becoming psychopaths. hence my original post about shakespeare. people routinely read classical tragedies in which children kill parents, there is torture, mutilation, rapine, salting of the earth, etc, and they don't all go on to become mass-murderers.

people basically like crime. the question of evil, pure evil more so, is endlessly fascinating. saints have pondered it for their entire life's work without ever becoming the evil-doer.
2020-12-10 15:52:33
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
people can consume fucked up things without becoming psychopaths.
And yet you complain when I post people getting blown up, knocked out, or generally maimed
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-10 16:05:42
uziq
Member
+492|3450
i’m talking about reading great works of literature and classical tragedy that depict suffering and cruelty. things with obvious cultural benefit and interest.

you like watching people get brained because you lead a boring and cucked existence.

not quite the same thing
2020-12-10 16:39:25
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
You moved the goalpost. Dilbert was complaining about mafia movies and television showing Italians living large and offing people. All I'm looking for is validation of my hobbies. Please confirm.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-10 17:04:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i don't think there's a connection between cultural consumption and human behaviour.
So collecting Nazi books is OK?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-10 18:26:46
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

uziq wrote:

i don't think there's a connection between cultural consumption and human behaviour. we've had this discussion umpteen times with macbeth when he's in wannabe tipper gore mode, warning about the predations of rap music and music videos on good catholic children. people can consume fucked up things without becoming psychopaths. hence my original post about shakespeare. people routinely read classical tragedies in which children kill parents, there is torture, mutilation, rapine, salting of the earth, etc, and they don't all go on to become mass-murderers.

people basically like crime. the question of evil, pure evil more so, is endlessly fascinating. saints have pondered it for their entire life's work without ever becoming the evil-doer.
I do think there is a small (though much exaggerated) connection between consumed media and the behavior of more impressionable youth who might change the way they dress and act by various degrees to "look cool," but environment and people are probably more to blame. How does a 12-year-old get into the drug business without developing any connections to or being scouted by drug people. Does a high schooler really go from selling their uncle's wine to peers, to marijuana deals (sourced all by themselves!) just to be like their favorite rapper? Or are there other factors at play /rhetorical.

I don't think Godfather is a very significant gateway into The Life.
2020-12-10 18:35:09
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

uziq wrote:

i don't think there's a connection between cultural consumption and human behaviour. we've had this discussion umpteen times with macbeth when he's in wannabe tipper gore mode, warning about the predations of rap music and music videos on good catholic children. people can consume fucked up things without becoming psychopaths. hence my original post about shakespeare. people routinely read classical tragedies in which children kill parents, there is torture, mutilation, rapine, salting of the earth, etc, and they don't all go on to become mass-murderers.

people basically like crime. the question of evil, pure evil more so, is endlessly fascinating. saints have pondered it for their entire life's work without ever becoming the evil-doer.
I do think there is a small (though much exaggerated) connection between consumed media and the behavior of more impressionable youth who might change the way they dress and act by various degrees to "look cool," but environment and people are probably more to blame. How does a 12-year-old get into the drug business without developing any connections to or being scouted by drug people. Does a high schooler really go from selling their uncle's wine to peers, to marijuana deals (sourced all by themselves!) just to be like their favorite rapper? Or are there other factors at play /rhetorical.

I don't think Godfather is a very significant gateway into The Life.
I would argue that there is a bigger correlation between mass shootings and media violence than there is with hip-hop and youth drug dealing. I grew up with a lot of stoner skateboarders who didn't listen to hip hop. I would even argue that kids into hip-hop were more responsible drug users. Hip-hop kids didn't want to experiment with hard drugs like Kurt Cobain. They had their weed and were happy with just that.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-10 18:55:27
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

I've read that Kurt got into the stuff when he was younger, on top of bipolar disorder and an undiagnosed digestive issue. A perfect storm of destruction, I suppose.

A well-to-do black kid from the suburbs who's never dressed like a street tough in their lives probably wouldn't without some sort of peer influence developed in part thanks to popular media depictions of black men.
2020-12-12 14:27:22
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
I like listening to Military History Visualized on youtube. He is a German historian who makes a ton of in depth history about World War 2 topics like tanks and stuff. I heard him mentioned in an unrelated video that Heinz Guderian's book was full of lies. He made a whole video dedicated to debunking some of the things H.G. said in his book as a well as included commentary on the book by others. You might like this video, Dilbert.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2020-12-12 14:27:51)

https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-12 14:30:18
Larssen
Member
+99|1885

Larssen wrote:

Also Guderian's book especially is full of embellishments and exaggeration. This is true for WW2 memoirs in general. Still a good read, but it's removed from the true history.
I did say so
2020-12-12 19:39:15
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Who am I going to believe though? Some hipster on youtube or an actual Nazi?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-12 19:56:49
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
The youtube hipster is German so he could also be an actual Nazi.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-12 22:51:16
uziq
Member
+492|3450
dilbert is weirdly sympathetic or amenable to the atrocious generational lie that spread through reactionary historiographical circles: that the average german knew nothing about nazism’s dark crimes, that the wehrmacht were all innocent patriots, that nazi generals weren’t so bad and were mostly honourable men, etc.

of course there’s a lacunae of truth in all those claims, when made in the service of nuanced argument or complex truth. but dilbert has all too often recycled the frankly bogus claim that the wehrmacht knew nothing at all about war crimes, etc.
2020-12-12 23:01:52
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
I feel like any nuance regarding Nazi Germany only serves modern extremist instead of adding anything valuable to any discussion. This is one reason why I think putting 99 year old SS members in prison is the right thing to do.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-13 02:43:51
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

dilbert is weirdly sympathetic or amenable to the atrocious generational lie that spread through reactionary historiographical circles: that the average german knew nothing about nazism’s dark crimes, that the wehrmacht were all innocent patriots, that nazi generals weren’t so bad and were mostly honourable men, etc.

of course there’s a lacunae of truth in all those claims, when made in the service of nuanced argument or complex truth. but dilbert has all too often recycled the frankly bogus claim that the wehrmacht knew nothing at all about war crimes, etc.
Never said anything like any of this, you're unhinged.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-13 06:15:13
uziq
Member
+492|3450
you have many times said that the wehrmacht are innocent and didn't know about the final solution, which is in the main wholly false.
2020-12-13 07:05:28
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
Even if the myth of the clean wehrmacht was true, their military service still provided the opportunity for the SS to commit genocide. Someone had to clear out the cities of Red Army units before the einsatzgruppen made their sweep of the place.

What I said about nuance here fits. Yes, there were innocent German conscripts who got wrapped up in a war they didn't start. But those conscripts continuing to be joined to the living allowed countless atrocities to take place. So forgive me if I am not going to light a candle in their honor.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-13 07:48:27
Larssen
Member
+99|1885
It was a time in history where overt racism was the norm. People spoke in strong generalisation about one another based on ethnicity and nationality. Hating jews was pretty common for example, so too among the allies. Most jewish families that died in concentration camps were ratted out by neighbours.

While the focus in recent years in our coming-to-terms with history has been in emphasising the average germans while creating moral distance from nazism, perhaps another better/ more accurate way would be to show the time for what it was: horribly racist and exclusionary, among all parties. That this extreme structural ethnonationalism and racism then led to unprecedented violence is something many have trouble coming to terms with. 'Wir haben es nicht gewußt', as they said at KZ Buchenwald..

I still think many of the former allies are having even greater problems with this history than Germany. They buried their own crimes, disregarded their own ethnonationalist excesses and the aftermath of WW2 was simply one big victory lap. It ushered in this extreme cognitive dissonance in maintaining colonial empires and ideas like British/American exceptionalism vs condemning all nationalist and racialist elements abroad. I also don't think it's a coincidence that in the 21st century it's in these countries who were the 'big winners' of the war that we see the strongest resurgence of racism and nationalist narcissism.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-12-13 07:50:07)

2020-12-13 08:01:38
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717

Larssen wrote:

I also don't think it's a coincidence that in the 21st century it's in these countries who were the 'big winners' of the war that we see the strongest resurgence of racism and nationalist narcissism.
The U.S. always had "America #1" mentality. In my 30 years of life, I have actually seen that diminish over time or at least voices saying "America was never great" are now mainstream. While we are on the subject of race, I think we have trended towards an overall more inclusive society over time. Media representation, government positions, corporate stances, etc. What I think is happening is that instead of there being a big resurgence in ethnonationalism in the U.S., that group which has always been nasty just have been way more vocal about and getting attention even though the country is still moving past them.  Analogies to post-World War 1 Germany is fitting here I think. 'Make Germany Great Again' was a reaction to the very real decline in German prestige, influence, economics etc. The MAGA crowd here is aware that the momentum of the world has shifted away from the U.S. even if they don't want to admit that this trend is unstoppable. And they will certainly never admit their outsized role in it either.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-12-13 23:01:54
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

It was a time in history where overt racism was the norm. People spoke in strong generalisation about one another based on ethnicity and nationality. Hating jews was pretty common for example, so too among the allies. Most jewish families that died in concentration camps were ratted out by neighbours.

While the focus in recent years in our coming-to-terms with history has been in emphasising the average germans while creating moral distance from nazism, perhaps another better/ more accurate way would be to show the time for what it was: horribly racist and exclusionary, among all parties. That this extreme structural ethnonationalism and racism then led to unprecedented violence is something many have trouble coming to terms with. 'Wir haben es nicht gewußt', as they said at KZ Buchenwald..

I still think many of the former allies are having even greater problems with this history than Germany. They buried their own crimes, disregarded their own ethnonationalist excesses and the aftermath of WW2 was simply one big victory lap. It ushered in this extreme cognitive dissonance in maintaining colonial empires and ideas like British/American exceptionalism vs condemning all nationalist and racialist elements abroad. I also don't think it's a coincidence that in the 21st century it's in these countries who were the 'big winners' of the war that we see the strongest resurgence of racism and nationalist narcissism.
Overt racism has been the norm since the dawn of history, its why we are all where we are, its not likely to change any more than its likely dogs will evolve to stop sniffing each others butts.

Putting other, more racist, races ahead of ourselves doesn't do us any favours, and its only the white anglo-saxons who are so bound up in self-recrimination to even consider it.

The current situation is we have multiple civilisations nearing four millenia which are more belligerent and racist than ever. Are we supposed to pull back, play the white man, and let them have free reign in the hope they'll just spontaneously develop compassion and understanding?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-12-13 23:29:16)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-13 23:33:54
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

Disputed and frequently twisted.

Looking at it from a "common sense" perspective for a moment, how often do you think ancient man encountered humans of vastly differing ethnic makeups that this would have become genetically hardwired? Why aren't more people racist today? Why don't you hate Asian women? Or maybe you do, I dunno. Don't you just treat them like sex objects?

It's probably easy to think racist tendencies are inherent when you spend your whole life immersed in them.
2020-12-13 23:38:14
uziq
Member
+492|3450
this view wot i have is obvious and universal and 3,000 years old at least. obviously. it’s a view wot i have !!!
2020-12-14 00:17:46
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Disputed and frequently twisted.

Looking at it from a "common sense" perspective for a moment, how often do you think ancient man encountered humans of vastly differing ethnic makeups that this would have become genetically hardwired? Why aren't more people racist today? Why don't you hate Asian women? Or maybe you do, I dunno. Don't you just treat them like sex objects?

It's probably easy to think racist tendencies are inherent when you spend your whole life immersed in them.
When ancient man encountered humans of vastly different ethnic makeup one side was typically annihilated.

Its not about hate, its about your tribe dominating the other tribe.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-14 00:19:03
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

this view wot i have is obvious and universal and 3,000 years old at least. obviously. it’s a view wot i have !!!
The jews have been vicious racists for longer than that, and still are, Chinese no different.

Japanese and Koreans are OK because they're with us, at the moment.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2020-12-14 01:06:51
uziq
Member
+492|3450
the japanese and koreans hate one another with a vigour unmatched in almost any western dynamic despite the fact that the japanese imperial line is genetically korean. so much for racism being the universal constant.

 

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