BF2S Forums War in Gaza Official Thread

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Here ya go, just one off the top of my head.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5066496.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast

The Palestinians claim the beach was shelled, the Israelis came up with all sorts of excuses, and then resumed their shelling of Gaza.

So let's see...

Questionable reports about shells landing on a beach in Gaza.

IDF says the shelling they were doing was in response to Qassam rocket attacks.

Who would have launched the Qassam rockets from Gaza? ...hmmmm...who could that have been?

Hamas launches rockets at Israel then gets pissy when the IDF returns fire.

Launching rockets at Israel is breaking the ceasefire. Israel did not launch shells pre-emptively.

Hence, Hamas is at fault...based solely on the articles you linked.

As for the details of the beach situation...there aren't enough details to make a call either way. Unless you're predisposed to hating Israel...but then your opinion on the matter isn't formed from an objective assessment of the facts available.

The Economist wrote:

And yet Israel should not be surprised by the torrent of indignation it has aroused from around the world. This is not just because people seldom back the side with the F-16s. In general, a war must pass three tests to be justified. A country must first have exhausted all other means of defending itself. The attack should be proportionate to the objective. And it must stand a reasonable chance of achieving its goal. On all three of these tests Israel is on shakier ground than it cares to admit.

It is true that Israel has put up with the rockets from Gaza for a long time. But it may have been able to stop the rockets another way. For it is not quite true that Israel’s only demand in respect of Gaza has been for quiet along the border. Israel has also been trying to undermine Hamas by clamping an economic blockade on Gaza, while boosting the economy of the West Bank, where the Palestinians’ more pliant secular movement, Fatah, holds sway. Even during the now-lapsed truce, Israel prevented all but a trickle of humanitarian aid from entering the strip. So although Israel was provoked, Hamas can claim that it was provoked too. If Israel had ended the blockade, Hamas may have renewed the truce. Indeed, on one reading of its motives, Hamas resumed fire to force Israel into a new truce on terms that would include opening the border.

On proportionality, the numbers speak for themselves—up to a point. After the first three days, some 350 Palestinians had been killed and only four Israelis. Neither common sense nor the laws of war require Israel to deviate from the usual rule, which is to kill as many enemies as you can and avoid casualties on your own side. Hamas was foolish to pick this uneven fight. But of the Palestinian dead, several score were civilians, and many others were policemen rather than combatants. Although both Western armies and their foes have killed far more civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel’s interest should be to minimise the killing. The Palestinians it is bombing today will be its neighbours for ever.

This last point speaks to the test of effectiveness. Israel said at first that, much as it would like to topple Hamas, its present operation has the more limited aim of “changing reality” so that Hamas stops firing across the border. But as Israel learnt in Lebanon in 2006, this is far from easy. As with Hizbullah, Hamas’s “resistance” to Israel has made it popular and delivered it to power. It is most unlikely to bend the knee. Like Hizbullah, it will probably prefer to keep on firing no matter how hard it is hit, daring Israel to send its ground forces into a messy street fight in Gaza’s congested cities and refugee camps.

Last edited by ..teddy..jimmy (2009-01-08 08:13:48)

AP wrote:

By Ibrahim Barzak And Steve Weizman, The Associated Press
ADVERTISEMENT

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The United Nations and the Red Cross halted aid deliveries to the Gaza Strip on Thursday after accusing Israeli forces of firing on their drivers, killing one. The threat of a wider conflict, meanwhile, arose when fighters in Lebanon fired two rockets into northern Israel.

One rocket crashed into a retirement home, but there were no serious injuries. Israel responded with mortar shells.

During a three-hour pause in the Israeli offensive to allow in food and fuel and let medics collect the dead, nearly three dozen bodies of Palestinians were found beneath the rubble of bombed-out buildings in Gaza City.

Many of the dead were in the same Zeitoun neighbourhood where the international Red Cross said rescuers discovered young children too weak to stand who had stayed by their dead mothers. The aid group accused Israel of an "unacceptable" delay in allowing workers to reach the area.

Relations between Israel and humanitarian organizations have grown increasingly tense as civilian casualties have mounted.

The UN demanded an investigation after Israel earlier this week fired shells at a target next to a UN school filled with Gazans seeking refuge from fighting that has left nearly 750 Palestinians dead, according to Palestinian hospital officials and human rights workers.

Israel said Palestinian fighters had launched an attack from the area, and then ran into a crowd of civilians for cover. Nearly 40 Palestinians died in the Israeli attack.

"We've been co-ordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continue to be hit and killed," said a UN spokesman, Chris Gunness, announcing the suspension. The UN is the largest aid provider in Gaza.

Israeli police, meanwhile, said fighters in the Gaza Strip fired 24 rockets into Israel on Thursday, injuring four people, one of them seriously.

The Israeli military said one soldier attached to a tank battalion was killed by gunfire in the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Twelve Israelis, including nine soldiers, have died since the Dec. 27 beginning of the offensive. But with roughly half the Palestinian dead believed to be civilians, international efforts to broker a ceasefire have been gaining steam.

Israeli envoys travelled to Egypt on Thursday to discuss the proposal being brokered by France and Egypt and now backed by the United States.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said any time lost will play into the hands of those who want war.

"The weapons must go quiet, the escalation must stop, Israel must obtain security guarantees and leave Gaza," he said in Paris.

The UN provides food aid to around 750,000 Gaza residents - about half of Gaza's population - and runs dozens of schools and clinics throughout the territory. They have some 9,000 locally employed staffers inside Gaza, and a small team of international staffers who work there.

For a second straight day, Israel suspended its Gaza military operation for three hours to allow in humanitarian supplies. Shortly before the pause took effect, however, the UN said one of its aid trucks came under fire from a gunner on an Israeli tank, killing the driver.

The UN said the vehicle was marked with a UN flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. The Israeli army said it was investigating.

In Geneva, the international Red Cross said it would restrict its aid operations to Gaza City for at least one day after one of its convoys came under Israeli fire at the Netzarim crossing during the three-hour lull in fighting Thursday. One driver was lightly injured.

Dr. Moaiya Hassanain of the Palestinian Health Ministry said 35 bodies were discovered Thursday during in several areas around Gaza City that have seen fierce fighting between Israeli troops and Hamas.

He said it was unclear how many Hamas fighters were killed because the remains were in poor condition, but that women and children were among the dead. Hassanain said 746 Palestinians have died in Israel's 13-day offensive.

Many of the dead found Thursday were in the Zeitoun neighbourhood, where the Red Cross said it found four small children alive next to their mothers' bodies in the rubble of a home hit by Israeli shelling. The aid group says a total of 15 dead were recovered from two houses there Wednesday.

A Red Cross spokesman says rescuers had been refused permission by Israeli forces to reach the site for four days. It said the delay in allowing rescue services access was "unacceptable."

The Red Cross statement was a rare public criticism from the aid group, which normally conducts confidential negotiations with warring parties.

The Israeli military said in a statement that Hamas militants used Palestinian civilians as human shields, and that Israeli forces work closely with international aid groups to help civilians during the fighting in Gaza.

The rockets from Lebanon raised the spectre of renewed hostilities on Israel's northern frontier, just 2 1/2 years after Israel battled the Hezbollah guerrilla group to a 34-day stalemate. War broke out between Hezbollah and Israel in 2006 as Israel battled Palestinians in Gaza, on Israel's southern borders.

No group claimed responsibility. Lebanon's government condemned the attack, and Hezbollah - which now plays an integral role in Lebanon's government - denied any responsibility for the rocket fire.

The Israeli offensive has reduced Palestinian rocket fire, but not stopped it altogether. Several barrages were reported Thursday, including one strike that damaged a school and sports centre in the southern city of Ashkelon, police said. Both buildings were empty.

For Israel to accept a proposed ceasefire, "there has to be a total and complete cessation of all hostile fire from Gaza into Israel, and ... we have to see an arms embargo on Hamas that will receive international support," said government spokesman Mark Regev.

For its part, Hamas said it would not accept a truce deal unless it includes an end to the Israeli blockade of Gaza - something Israel says it is not willing to do. Israel has maintained a stiff economic embargo on Gaza since the Hamas takeover, sparking the rocket attacks.

The Palestinian Authority controls the West Bank while Hamas rules Gaza - two territories on opposite sides of Israel that are supposed to make up a future Palestinian state. Hamas took control of Gaza from forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in June 2007.

Ottomania wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Ottomania wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/10/israel

A barrage of Israeli artillery shells rained down on a busy Gaza beach yesterday,

That's clearly objective reporting.

One shell, of questionable provenance, now equates to a "barrage". Reports don't provide enough evidence to know if the shell was fired or was a UXO that exploded...but they "rained down".

yellow journalism ftl

You look so funny from here while trying to defend Israel.

If you have read the link, you will see that Israeli Army approved the attack, after 16 month ceasefire. It is not only Hamas that ends truces.

oh, you still not satisfied, here comes from your press:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/

Four exhausted children have been discovered cowering in a house next to the bodies of their mothers by staff of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which today accused the Israeli military of "unacceptable" delays in allowing medics safe access to injured Gazans.

The Red Cross workers found the small children, who were so weak they could not stand, sheltering next to the bodies of their mothers in a house in Zeitoun, southeast of Gaza City. Another man was found alive, but again too weak to stand. At least 12 bodies were lying on mattresses.

mafia996630 wrote:

Israel criticised after 'shocking' discovery of exhausted children

Four exhausted children have been discovered cowering in a house next to the bodies of their mothers by staff of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which today accused the Israeli military of "unacceptable" delays in allowing medics safe access to injured Gazans.

The Red Cross workers found the small children, who were so weak they could not stand, sheltering next to the bodies of their mothers in a house in Zeitoun, southeast of Gaza City. Another man was found alive, but again too weak to stand. At least 12 bodies were lying on mattresses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … s-children


That just fukking fuked which ever side you look at it from, how the fuk can anyone do that.?I hope who ever did that die a slow and painful death.

Mek wrote:

What's stupid here is Hamas is demanding Israel stop the blockade, why should they? Hamas won't even recognise Israel, but they recognise them enough to know that they need them. The thing is, why the hell do they need them? They should be spending this time, becoming self sufficient and also forming closer ties with Egypt, that they even share a border with. So that they WON'T have to be dependent on Israel.

FEOS wrote:

So let's see...

Questionable reports about shells landing on a beach in Gaza.

IDF says the shelling they were doing was in response to Qassam rocket attacks.

Mekstizzle wrote:

That's the problem, they don't want peace. They just want to constantly try and fuck up Israel no matter what, they have no care whatsoever of making things better for themselves. I mean shit, what's wrong with these people?

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So let's see...

Questionable reports about shells landing on a beach in Gaza.

IDF says the shelling they were doing was in response to Qassam rocket attacks.

Except no militants killed, just civilians.

Last edited by sergeriver (2009-01-09 02:01:19)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sergeriver wrote:

@Dilbert, Hamas will never recognize Israel.

They's said in the past they would, see earlier in the thread for the links.
Now I somehow doubt it.

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation's executive committee and a lead negotiator on the prisoners' document, said Hamas had agreed to sections which call for a negotiated and final agreement with Israel to establish a Palestinian state on the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem.

"Hamas is prepared to accept those parts of the document because they think it is a way to get rid of a lot of its problems with the international community. That's why it will accept all the document eventually," he said.

Hamas, facing a deep internal split over recognition of the Jewish state, declined to discuss the negotiations in detail.

If it formally approves the entire document, it will represent a significant shift from its founding goal of replacing Israel with an Islamic state and its more recent position of agreeing a long-term ceasefire, over a generation or more, if a Palestinian state is formed on the occupied territories but without formally recognising the Jewish state.