Poll

In RealLife The Better Tank is ?

T722%2% - 9
T8010%10% - 35
M1A Abrams62%62% - 220
others24%24% - 86
Total: 350
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6836
Reaper.. You say, that russian technology was 20 years behind? Get real... they might have built their planes computers not with microelectronic chips but that made the electronic systems easier to maintain and interestingly enough more resistant to EMP*. Also.... the T-72 and T-80 tank is superior to the M1A2 in many things...

Horseman Responds..Really... Really. ? are you serious ?  Here I must take exception. This deserves its own Post. Its just not true.

I really cant agree with this statement at all except maybe catastrophic turret failure.

I know the current Brit and German tanks are very much on par  " I think " but that was not the argument.
silentsin
Member
+3|6696
from what i hear, the M1A2 Abrams owns any other tank. in the gulf war M1A2s kicked the shit out of those T-72s. i believe the ratio was about 20 T-72s per one M1A2 Abrams. thats a fucking ratio for you.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6713|US
search the combat loss records.
M1A1 and M1A2 are far superior

M1s lost to enemy fire...I think it's like 4
Iraqi tanks...decimated

The M1A1 can engage at 1-2 miles = HUGE advantage

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2006-01-25 19:41:14)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6836
Tell em.. TELL EM !
Drunkaholic
Member
+4|6723
M1A1 and M1A2 do have superior range to the T-72.  However, the T-90 is equipped with a device that scrambles laser targeting systems, making the M1A2 gunner do the sh*t manually.  This leaves the T-90 plenty of time to engage and destroy.  Not to mention the T-90's curved surfaces usually make SABOT rounds literally bounce off.
BlackLegion42
Damn Command and Conquer Generals...
+62|6728|Rochester, NY
The T-90 Were developed after the M1A2, so their tech has been far beyond the M1's. The T-72 are shit really and T-80 could kick ass if they are used properly against the M1's. Overall T-72 and T-80 < M1A2 BUT T-90 > M1A2. Not flaming the American Tanks but that is how it goes in real life. The only reason why the Americans haven't updated their tanks because they haven't encountered any struggles with newer tanks like the T-90 and still has a lead with its decaying arsenal by fighting weaker armies (like Iraq for example).
Flavius Aetius
Member
+3|6668|Stalking Chuck Norris
how many t-90's are out there? It may be a great tank (like the german tiger) but its numbers are so few that it doesn't make a difference. It can be overwhelmed by numbers (what the shemans did)
=DBD=TITAN126
Member
+5|6782
LOL I actually laughed out loud when I read the title of this thread. The T-90 might be better than the Abrams, but the T-72 and T-80 ARE NOT!
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6681|Stillwater, Ok
Well the T-90 might be stronger but they would be wiped out through airstrikes before they even engage a M1A2.  So no need to update.
Drunkaholic
Member
+4|6723

Horseman 77 wrote:

Reaper.. You say, that russian technology was 20 years behind?
If Russian technology was 20 years behind, they wouldn't have the only operational anti-ballistic missle defense system and base in the world .
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6681|Stillwater, Ok
Just to be a smart ass here. How the hell could they afford that?  I mean seriously.  Its russia, they could barely keep their houses heated a few winters ago.  How did they get a anti ballistic missile system?
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6836

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Just to be a smart ass here. How the hell could they afford that?  I mean seriously.  Its russia, they could barely keep their houses heated a few winters ago.  How did they get a anti ballistic missile system?
Its a Derek Jeter MLB " pitch back " painted low vis Cammo Grey... Really kix ass 2
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6705|Germany
Okay... let's see.... somewhere in this forum, I actually posted a comparison between all those MBT that are or will be in BF2 Euro Force.
These are: M1A2, T-90, Type 98, Challenger 2, Leopard 2A6.

As a matter of fact, a tank is made superior to others by the conjunction of several factors. These are:
Armor
Armament
Speed
Mobility
Ruggedness
Difficulty to maintain them in the field

As a matter of fact, we can let the Type 98 out of this scope. The T-90 is actually a downgraded export-variant of the T-72. So lets compare the 3 types in question again.

M1A2
Armor: composite armor with layers of depleted uranium (similar to Chobham Armor)
Main Arm: 120mm smoothbore(actually a licensed production of a German Tank gun similar to the one in the Leopard II)
Top Speed: 67 km/h
Weight: 62.1 tonnes
Range: 391 km
Engine: Turbine

T-72
Armor: composite armor (similar to Chobham Armor) fittable with additional reactive armor
Main Arm: 125mm smoothbore capable of firing ATGM's as well as penetrator ammunition.
Top Speed: 75 km/h
Weight: 41 tonnes
Range: 450km / 600km with external fueltanks
Engine: Diesel

T-80
Armor: Composite Armor (similar to Chobham Armor), fittable with reactive armor as well
Main Arm: 125mm smoothbore capable of shooting ATGM's as well
Top Speed: 70 km/h
Weight: 46 tonnes
Range: 335km / 600km with external fuel tanks
Engine: Turbine

For comparison:

Leopard 2A6
Armor: perforated Armor (steel with ceramic foamed cavities inside)
Main Arm: 120mm smoothbore
Speed: 70 km/h
Weight: 62 tonnes
Range: 550 km
Engine: Diesel

Challenger II
Armor: Chobham composite Armor, reactive armor can be fitted
Main Arm: 120mm rifled
Speed: 56 km/h
Weight: 62,5 km/h
Range: 450 km
Engine: Diesel

Ok, lets see. For starters, the M1A2 is the only tank, that uses a turbine engine, which tend to be heavier and more difficult to maintain. Also, fuel efficiency and range drops significantly.

As a matter of fact both the T-72 and the T-80 are smaller in size and weight, giving them a lower profile (good for using terrain as cover). Armor protection is not reduced by this since the enclosed volume is smaller, therefore less armor (and weight) is neccessary to ensure the same protection. The T-72 and the T-80 are app. half to three quarter of the size of an M1A2 but using a bigger gun that uses either DU- or TU-Penetrators or ATGM's.

Being lighter and having a higher speed than the M1 ensures a higher maneuvrability, quality not to be underestimated. Range is also a cruical factor since it defines how long a tank can operate independently.

So basically... electronic systems do not always win the day since they can fail more easily. The T-72 is technically speaking not really under par compared to other tanks and the T-80 definitely would win some against the M1A2.

You might say, that Iraq used T-72 tanks agains US M1A2, but consider this: those tanks where mostly not the modernized variant, they where not properly maintained, the crews where not properly trained and the morale was below the freezing point, metaphorically speaking.

I am not so sure who would win, if the hands where even.

Actually, one of the best balanced tanks is indeed the Leopard II. The different armor offers the same protection, the diesel of that tank guzzles basically every flammable liquid as fuel, it can traverse rivers under water using a snorkel, it is capable of climbing a vertical 1m ramp at top speed and (one of the best advantages) it is built modular.

By the way... instead of using conjectural knowledge and fantasy, I would definitely do some research... try to go to www.army-guide.com for example.

That would definitely put some realism into that sometime ridiculously naive "hooray america, we are the best"-attitude

Last edited by BEE_Grim_Reaper (2006-01-25 20:42:41)

Sluggit
Member
+3|6717|Sweden
Read a little bit here http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/main.html
about the M1 Abrams MBT and the Leopard 2 MBT. I’d say we have one of the most if not the most advanced Tank in the world in Sweden (read further down on the Leopard 2 site).

The T-72 is by all standards an old Tank now and has no Chobham armour (ceramics) like the Abrams or Leopard 2 and don’t stand much of a chance against either one of them, but the US was certainly behind the USSR in Tank technology all the time since WW II until the M1 Abrams came about.

Read George Forty: Tank Action in the last chapter A desert Rat’s “Tail” you can read first hand about what you spoke of before, how the Battle for Al Hanniyah went!!

“We had come 350 km in 97 hours, of which 54 had been in contact with the enemy. We had knocked out some 66 Tanks, 90 APC:s and 37 artillery pieces. Three divisional commanders, four brigade commanders and their staffs, together with 5,000 officers and men had surrendered to us”.

There are numerous of sites on the Internet were you can read about all about Tanks.
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6705|Germany
True... the first model of the T-72 did not have composite armor... but later models of the T-72 did have it
Spetz
Member
+1|6673

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Well the T-90 might be stronger but they would be wiped out through airstrikes before they even engage a M1A2.  So no need to update.
ok mate the russian tanks are superiour in the way of ERA

explosive reactive armour

basicly it is layers of tiles that when something hits them at high speed it explodes and reduces the force of impact by 7 tenths

a russian t-90 can sustain 7 hellfire missiles all hitting consecutivly and in the one spot

(hellfire missiles are the best anti tank missiles you can mount on a plane or helicopter)

the russians are developing a t-95 with more ERA a 150mm gun that can fire and hit a tank 4-5 kms away

and the state of art FCS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

russia can afford this because they are a socialist regime, basicly they dont pay their scientists millions to develop a tank that wont be used in 10 years

all technology developed by russia is USED for a REASON

most technology developed by the americans is because their economy rellies upon weapons manufacture

something like 2 out of every 10 people in america are somehow related to the military(like bullets manufacture and shit like that)

EDIT: whats not to say that the russians cant launch their own air strike?

Last edited by Spetz (2006-01-25 20:57:08)

shamr0x
Member
+0|6684
This thread does not take into consideration one very important factor....

Air superiority!

In all major recent wars, the US has had it so there is very little head-to-head of just tanks.

There is nothing more awesome than the A-10 flanked by a couple of Apaches supporting the M1A2s.
Spetz
Member
+1|6673

shamr0x wrote:

This thread does not take into consideration one very important factor....

Air superiority!

In all major recent wars, the US has had it so there is very little head-to-head of just tanks.

There is nothing more awesome than the A-10 flanked by a couple of Apaches supporting the M1A2s.
russian migs out number american jets 6 to 1
oberst_enzian
Member
+234|6741|melb.au

BEE_Grim_Reaper wrote:

You might say, that Iraq used T-72 tanks agains US M1A2, but consider this: those tanks where mostly not the modernized variant, they where not properly maintained, the crews where not properly trained and the morale was below the freezing point, metaphorically speaking.
the most interesting and relevent point in this thread so far. superior technology alone will never win the day. you have to believe in what you're fighting for. all the recent american military successes will never erase the memory of vietnam.
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6705|Germany

Spetz wrote:

shamr0x wrote:

This thread does not take into consideration one very important factor....

Air superiority!

In all major recent wars, the US has had it so there is very little head-to-head of just tanks.

There is nothing more awesome than the A-10 flanked by a couple of Apaches supporting the M1A2s.
russian migs out number american jets 6 to 1
But you are aware of the fact, the MiG's are mostly air-superiority fighters, not ground-attack, right?
Also... every jet has its specialization while it is totally unsuited for specific other roles. Also you should take into account that a lot of russian aircrafts have been sold internationally... also take into account, that some of those are really obsolet and possessed by some 3rd World countries.

(Bringing an Air-Superiority Fighter into a ground attack would be nearly as stupid as bringing a knife to a gunfight)
Spetz
Member
+1|6673
migs can be fitted with AG missiles

700 pound bombs

FUEL BOMBS

and its russian protocol that migs can only be sold once they have been superseaded

this means that the only untill a new mig is developed, the latest mig cannot be sold

the russians have 1 jet that does everything

the americans have many jets that can do only a few things

migs are also cheeper and faster than anyother jet the americans have

except for the super high altitude spy jet
CRUSHER
Member
+-1|6713
This thread went  from tanks to jets... Nice...


Anyway, the F-22 Raptor pwns all..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
*TS*tphai
The Forum Alien
+89|6805|The planet Tophet
because the US ARMED FORCES ROCK AND WE WILL FOR A WHILE
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6715
the power of the BF2 tanks are determined by a .con file... lol...  US military rules... its not just the vehicles...
it's the ingenuity and bravery of our men and women...  we are a melting pot of the best people in the world...
Peace through superior firepower...     CB
Love is the answer
Spetz
Member
+1|6673

CRUSHER wrote:

This thread went  from tanks to jets... Nice...


Anyway, the F-22 Raptor pwns all..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
lol

that jet was superceeded by the JSF or f-35 last year
__________________________________________________________________________________________

america wins wars, because they fight people who are poorly equiped and have the biggest budget out of all military organizations in the world

but you have to face the fact that your country is on the verge of Bankruptcy

the americans had to get the joint investment of britain australia and germany soo they could fund the JointStrikeFighter

__________________________________________________________________________________________

china is quickly catching americas economy

your screwed in the next 15 years, sorry to be the one to tell you

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