i was given two choices. and i voted for the most important issue to me. you dont get a choice yet still follow along. keep trying though, this is fun.TheAussieReaper wrote:
You voted for Obama? Clearly you must be gay for him and a sheep.usmarine wrote:
what the hell does that have to do with anything?
So, get in line sheep.
Are you going to use any evidence to back up your claims? I gave a number of reasons why America would be better off without slavery; you just say "No, it was a good thing." Like I said, the demand for labor in the South could have easily been met by poor whites, or the massive numbers of immigrants looking for work during that time period, so yeah, the economic prosperity would have been about the same. And, had the wealth been spread to those impoverished groups rather than just using slaves, those groups might have been able to integrate into our society without the conflicts they went through. Had we been able to avoid the civil war (which is a possibility without slavery) the economic prosperity of the entire country might have gone uninterrupted and would be even more successful than it was.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Okay just to deal with it up front, economically the U.S. is better off for slavery. I can't believe you seriously think the South would have had the same economic prosperity without it.Home wrote:
You think that was wise? Bringing a huge chunk of the population to this nation as slaves has caused nothing but conflict, and it will continue to do that for probably another 100 years. It provided cheap labor that fueled almost the entire economy of the South before the civil war, but even that wasn't beneficial in the long run because all those jobs could have gone to American citizens (reducing poverty) which also could have possibly prevented the civil war from happening in the first place. Other countries such as the Netherlands accepted a higher degree of cultural diversity, and became incredibly economically strong. We would be better off today if slavery hadn't happened.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Precisely.
For the country as a whole, it is hard to say if we would have been better with or without it. It's a massive what if that encompasses so many issues you could answer it either way. What I do know however is that certain groups of people will always get the short end of the stick, but if that is the expense of national success...the greatest good for the greatest number of people right?
It seems to me like you are taking the position you are because you like to play the rebel.
America's superiority is not due nearly as much to your interpretation of our society as you say. Just look at the simple facts: While everyone else in the world was working with the same natural resources they had been using for centuries, we suddenly stumbled on a vast abundance of untapped resources. America is successful because it was founded on a jackpot, essentially. You would have to be a HUGE fuck up to not make something successful out of America. Our capitalism definitely furthered our success by fostering a society that is obsessed with making money, but it is not the sole reason America is successful. I wouldn't even say it's the primary reason.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Here is the source of the disagreement.Turquoise wrote:
Our greatest resource is people, and we need to better educate the masses while providing them better access to healthcare.
I think that our greatest resource is some people. The rest are quite literally no more useful than glorified sheep. I also don't think that any one person should be in charge of separating the cream of the crop from the rest, but a general system and an individual's own devices.America has owned and will own your face because we rely on supporting the best instead of propping up the worst.Uzique wrote:
but I genuinely miss the actual point of the OP. What's he trying to say? What does he want to discuss?
The op reminds me of something I once read. The bold in particular.
I can't say that I agree with all of it.. but yes, some of his opinion seems accurate.Ralph Peters wrote:
Life may not be predictable, but Europeans are. If we criticize them publicly, they splutter, outraged that we don't recognize their perfection. They can dish it out abundantly, but continental Europeans can no more take criticism than their welfare armies could have taken Baghdad.
The only thing you can get for free from Europeans is advice. And they're always ready to give us plenty of it, as they've been doing for more than two centuries.
Still, behind the easy pleasure of poking fun at European pretensions, there are serious - and hardening - differences between Americans, who embrace the future, and the French or Germans or Belgians who cling to the past.
None of those differences go so deep as our opposing concepts of freedom.
For Europeans - excluding the Brits, who are more like us than they sometimes find comfortable - "freedom" means freedom from things: from social and economic risk, from workplace insecurity and personal responsibility, from too much competition in the marketplace or too much scrutiny of governing elites.
Socialism, a doctrine born in Europe, struck very deep roots. The collective takes priority over the individual. The European social contract amounts to this: We will not let the talented rise too high, and we will not let the lazy fall too low. "Equality" doesn't mean equal opportunities, but equal limitations.
For Americans, freedom means the freedom to do: To make our own way, to struggle, achieve, to rise (to climb social, educational or economic ladders), to move beyond our parents' lot in life and give our children better chances still.
We are products of the immigrant spirit and the pioneer mentality. Our ancestors (as well as today's new immigrants) dared to take a chance, instead of remaining in the "old country," with its degrading social and economic systems.
The Europeans with whom we must deal today are those whose ancestors lacked the courage to pack their bags and board the ships in Hamburg or Antwerp or Danzig. They chose a miserable security over hope that carried risks.
The American Revolution was entrepreneurial and constructive. The French Revolution was vengeful and destructive. Even during the Great Depression, when extremist ideologies achieved their greatest popularity in the United States, nothing approaching a majority of Americans signed up for any totalitarian creed of either the right or left. In the words of Huey Long, who for all his faults spoke for the average Joe, we never stopped believing in the possibility of "every man a king."
Europeans are content with "every man a servant," as long as the terms of service are not too severe and the position comes with job security. Hitler did not cement his hold on power with anti-Semitism - that was an add-on - but with works projects, with jobs for Germans, with a promise of economic security, however low the level.
The Bolsheviks never preached liberty. Their credo was the nanny state, a "fair share" for the workers and the promise that decisions would be made "for the good of all."
We elevate the individual; Europeans worship the group. We dream. Europeans fear. Indeed, the only belief that has been pronounced dead more often than religion is the American dream. Professors write its obituary almost daily. The rest of us live it.
Life isn't fair, of course. But too much enforced "fairness" robs life of its vitality. We Americans live in the one country where each of us, regardless of race or religion, has the chance to realize our potential. Reaching that potential is up to us. But our laws and our culture don't stand in our way.
There are, of course, many further differences between us and the Europeans, but the greatest other distinction relates to the first: American is the land of second chances. And of third, fourth and fifth chances, if only we have the gumption to seize them.
In Europe, there's little provision for late bloomers. The placement tests the student takes as a teenager determine his or her academic, economic and social fate to an extent that would spark another revolution in America.
Here, attending Harvard is no guarantee that you'll succeed in life - it just gives you a head start out of the gate. On the other hand, beginning your academic career at a community college doesn't mean you can't climb to the highest income levels.
Europeans accept their fates. Americans make their own.
Most Americans would be astonished if they understood how few opportunities there are for Europeans to pursue adult education, to change careers, to learn new skills - or to recreate their lives. It's an adult version of being forced to retain your identity in junior high school forever.
Europeans demand security, no matter the price. Americans want a shot at the title.
And so it comes to pass that, as America seeks to change the world for the better, Europeans are content to let dictators thrive and populations suffer - as long as Europe's slumber is not disturbed.
Strategically, Europe is in danger of becoming the greatest impediment to positive change in the world. Europe clings to the international status quo, no matter how dreadful, simply because risk has been bred out of its culture. This leaves the United States (and Britain) with the choice of doing that which is necessary and just without Europe's support, or accepting the rules that made the 20th century history's bloodiest.
Europeans are correct when they insist that America has become a danger. We are, indeed, a tremendous threat to their self-satisfaction, to their dread of change, to their moral irresponsibility and to their dreary, state-supported cultures.
Our ancestors chose a new kind of human freedom. Europeans have resisted it ever since. .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
God Kmarion, reading that long passage was painful. So many ostentatiously 'profound' statements built on hot air...
And that's a hard thing for me to say and disagree with actually, considering this guy is seemingly lumping USA & Britain together. That means I'm actually compelled to defend the damn French, the Spaniards and those terrible Dutch monsters. But honestly? "Europeans accept their fates. Americans make their own." Haha. So many of those statements are terrible, you're right to not agree with all of it! Especially considering how much more liberal and forward Europe is in thought now re: fate, life, spirituality... you're the ones with the fundamentalists and narrowminded widespread acceptance of religion, we're the enlightened atheists and heretics .
As for elevating individual - worshipping group. I'm not sure. I think it may have something to do with socio-political trends in the last century; we both went different ways and adopted different methods of climbing out of the great economic and social changes of two world wars. Can you blame the European community and governments for adopting a more socialist-system after the devastation of two wars that totalled infrastructure and economic systems? It has already been stated before in this thread several times but, America had just about the greatest headstart out of any 'new' nation in history. You had it all, including the lucky gold-strike of abundant resources; you guys were made. I'm not sure if your relative success coming from that background deserves applause or disdain, it's all a matter of opinion.
And that's a hard thing for me to say and disagree with actually, considering this guy is seemingly lumping USA & Britain together. That means I'm actually compelled to defend the damn French, the Spaniards and those terrible Dutch monsters. But honestly? "Europeans accept their fates. Americans make their own." Haha. So many of those statements are terrible, you're right to not agree with all of it! Especially considering how much more liberal and forward Europe is in thought now re: fate, life, spirituality... you're the ones with the fundamentalists and narrowminded widespread acceptance of religion, we're the enlightened atheists and heretics .
As for elevating individual - worshipping group. I'm not sure. I think it may have something to do with socio-political trends in the last century; we both went different ways and adopted different methods of climbing out of the great economic and social changes of two world wars. Can you blame the European community and governments for adopting a more socialist-system after the devastation of two wars that totalled infrastructure and economic systems? It has already been stated before in this thread several times but, America had just about the greatest headstart out of any 'new' nation in history. You had it all, including the lucky gold-strike of abundant resources; you guys were made. I'm not sure if your relative success coming from that background deserves applause or disdain, it's all a matter of opinion.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Bingo! Do I blame Europe for "adopting a more socialist-system" after nearly destroying the whole of mankind twice? Not at all. I think that was the point of "because risk has been bred out of its culture". It is quite simply a different path. You're right about taking advantage of our resources though. Upon gaining our independence we took to the fields and built a society that would capitalize on it. We didn't immediately turn on our neighbors and begin a self destructive path. We came together and worked towards a common goal. We focused on building a lasting democracy that was based on the rights of the individual. Dethroning the old world powers in less than 200 years was simply a byproduct.
Of course the ultimate irony here is that my ancestors left Europe primarily to escape your supremely enlightened idea of a national church and the religious demands you made on each other. I have no problem with religion so long as it does not run into government. America has had to learn to be tolerant to all faiths and beliefs. I know of no other country that has had diversity thrust upon it in such a rapid manner.you're the ones with the fundamentalists and narrowminded widespread acceptance of religion, we're the enlightened atheists and heretics tongue.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
You guys might not have seen it, so:
Wrong, they were nutballs, just a different kind of nutball.KMarion wrote:
Of course the ultimate irony here is that my ancestors left Europe primarily to escape your supremely enlightened idea of a national church and the religious demands you made on each other.
In every European country there has never been a requirement to practise a religion AFAIK.
Fuck Israel
Spanish Inquisition anyone?Dilbert_X wrote:
Wrong, they were nutballs, just a different kind of nutball.KMarion wrote:
Of course the ultimate irony here is that my ancestors left Europe primarily to escape your supremely enlightened idea of a national church and the religious demands you made on each other.
In every European country there has never been a requirement to practise a religion AFAIK.
We have had our fair share of religious conflicts where people have been killed because they practiced the wrong religion or didn't practice the correct one, so i would say there have been requirements to practice a certain religion ...
And many European countries still have a national church ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Nice, launch straight in with an insulting and condescending tone... preaching to the choir are we? Europeans may be generous with their advice but, and correct me if I'm wrong, do we not have several thousand years more experience upon which to base this advice? And that's not intended as a boastful claim, I'm just pointing out that we've seen way more bloodshed and carnage in our time and don't share the same appetite for it these days as our young cousins across the sea... imagine a wise old soldier telling a young grunt to cool his jets if you will! I like also how he speaks in such a flattering tone about some of the "welfare armies" that the US administration were so keen to have assist them in the post-war phase of the disastrous Iraq invasion... now I may just be an angry European who can't take criticism but when I see hypocrisy I like to point it out.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Life may not be predictable, but Europeans are. If we criticize them publicly, they splutter, outraged that we don't recognize their perfection. They can dish it out abundantly, but continental Europeans can no more take criticism than their welfare armies could have taken Baghdad. The only thing you can get for free from Europeans is advice. And they're always ready to give us plenty of it, as they've been doing for more than two centuries.
Deregulation is definitely the way to go... oh wait... oh noes...Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Still, behind the easy pleasure of poking fun at European pretensions, there are serious - and hardening - differences between Americans, who embrace the future, and the French or Germans or Belgians who cling to the past. None of those differences go so deep as our opposing concepts of freedom. For Europeans - excluding the Brits, who are more like us than they sometimes find comfortable - "freedom" means freedom from things: from social and economic risk, from workplace insecurity and personal responsibility, from too much competition in the marketplace or too much scrutiny of governing elites.
Okay, enough of this horseshit. I've heard this time and time again in this forum. Will someone please explain to me how exactly socialist Europe keeps the individual down? I hate to point out the obvious but those of you in the US also have a banded tax system so please elaborate on how we are kept down beyond the same institutions and tax systems that also effect you. You do realise that Stalin and Hitler are no longer in town, don't you?Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Socialism, a doctrine born in Europe, struck very deep roots. The collective takes priority over the individual. The European social contract amounts to this: We will not let the talented rise too high, and we will not let the lazy fall too low. "Equality" doesn't mean equal opportunities, but equal limitations.
My father's generation had to struggle in his day, they were tough times; he could not afford the 'luxury' of third level education. I on the other hand have a Degree, a Masters, and am currently being paid to study for a PHD; my older brother, who also has a degree, is currently about to take up a managerial promotion in his high paying semi-State job and my younger brother has a trade which is recognised pretty much anywhere in the world. Now, not only does this completely fly in the face of Mr. Peters bullshit hypothetical imagination of European life, I must also point out that it was in fact the socialist support structures provided by the Irish Department of Education that made these achievements possible for me and my brothers (free fees for moderate income families and student grants and so on)... so contrary to socialism inhibiting our ability to improve on the previous generation's lot, it actually took our family from working class to middle class in one fell swoop.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
For Americans, freedom means the freedom to do: To make our own way, to struggle, achieve, to rise (to climb social, educational or economic ladders), to move beyond our parents' lot in life and give our children better chances still. We are products of the immigrant spirit and the pioneer mentality. Our ancestors (as well as today's new immigrants) dared to take a chance, instead of remaining in the "old country," with its degrading social and economic systems.
I'm sorry Mr. Peters but you're just dead wrong on this one.. and I'm living proof of that.
That's funny because we could talk of Americans as being the descendants of those who were not tough enough to handle it when things got a bit tough over here; as soon as things got a little uncomfortable they hopped on a boat and legged it... some people even hypothesize that this is why American soldiers lack the same mental toughness as their Russian and British counterparts.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
The Europeans with whom we must deal today are those whose ancestors lacked the courage to pack their bags and board the ships in Hamburg or Antwerp or Danzig. They chose a miserable security over hope that carried risks.
How many kings have you got over there at the moment? I think I saw quite a few kings sleeping in cardboard boxes when I was in New York.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
The American Revolution was entrepreneurial and constructive. The French Revolution was vengeful and destructive. Even during the Great Depression, when extremist ideologies achieved their greatest popularity in the United States, nothing approaching a majority of Americans signed up for any totalitarian creed of either the right or left. In the words of Huey Long, who for all his faults spoke for the average Joe, we never stopped believing in the possibility of "every man a king."
Are we indeed content with every man as a servant? Thanks for telling me that Ralph because it's the first I've heard... perhaps I didn't get that email. Again this buffoon talks about the cartoon version of socialism rather than dealing with the actual reality of it... shall I dig out the Irish rich list of 2008 to show you how many entrepreneurs we "kept down" last year, shall I?Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Europeans are content with "every man a servant," as long as the terms of service are not too severe and the position comes with job security. Hitler did not cement his hold on power with anti-Semitism - that was an add-on - but with works projects, with jobs for Germans, with a promise of economic security, however low the level. The Bolsheviks never preached liberty. Their credo was the nanny state, a "fair share" for the workers and the promise that decisions would be made "for the good of all."
Again I ask, how do we keep the individual down exactly? As regards fear... we're not the ones with a rainbow-coloured terror alert system.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
We elevate the individual; Europeans worship the group. We dream. Europeans fear. Indeed, the only belief that has been pronounced dead more often than religion is the American dream. Professors write its obituary almost daily. The rest of us live it.
Do our laws or our culture stand in our way? Do they? I'd like to see some fucking proof for a change instead of horseshit claims made by idiots drowning in their own rhetoric. He says too much "enforced fairness" robs life of its vitality, and I agree... my only problem is that when you let the capitalist market run wild you end up with what we are seeing now in the financial crisis. Everything in moderation is my motto.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Life isn't fair, of course. But too much enforced "fairness" robs life of its vitality. We Americans live in the one country where each of us, regardless of race or religion, has the chance to realize our potential. Reaching that potential is up to us. But our laws and our culture don't stand in our way.
There are so many holes in this argument it's not even funny. I know you guys have food stamps and things like that but what happens when a guy loses his job and his house because he gets sick and can't pay the medical bills? In Europe (or Ireland at least) the Government will not allow you to end up on the streets. They will see that you get the medical treatment at a fair price, they will see that you get social insurance until you are fit to work again and they will either help you with rent relief or with council accommodation. As regards employment potential, if you lack the requisite skills FÁS will see that you embark on a training course to improve your skill set and maximize your employment potential regardless of age. Membership of FÁS is an obligatory requirement for anyone on welfare beyond a period of about two months. If you go beyond 300 days without having done your upmost to find work or if there is work available but you are refusing to take it, then you will be cut off. There are also a vast array of free adult education programs available for those who may have messed up first time around, there are also adult back to college grants available for third level education.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
There are, of course, many further differences between us and the Europeans, but the greatest other distinction relates to the first: American is the land of second chances. And of third, fourth and fifth chances, if only we have the gumption to seize them. In Europe, there's little provision for late bloomers. The placement tests the student takes as a teenager determine his or her academic, economic and social fate to an extent that would spark another revolution in America.
Sorry Ralph but you're dead wrong on this one again.
Absolute horsehit Ralph... see above.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Here, attending Harvard is no guarantee that you'll succeed in life - it just gives you a head start out of the gate. On the other hand, beginning your academic career at a community college doesn't mean you can't climb to the highest income levels. Europeans accept their fates. Americans make their own. Most Americans would be astonished if they understood how few opportunities there are for Europeans to pursue adult education, to change careers, to learn new skills - or to recreate their lives. It's an adult version of being forced to retain your identity in junior high school forever.
How many dictators have we got in Europe at the moment... not counting Gordon Brown?Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Europeans demand security, no matter the price. Americans want a shot at the title. And so it comes to pass that, as America seeks to change the world for the better, Europeans are content to let dictators thrive and populations suffer - as long as Europe's slumber is not disturbed.
What is necessary? Are we seriously going to describe the invasion and ruination of a country that posed no threat whatsoever to the West and harboured no significant level of terrorism as "necessary"? What would Ralph say if China decided they were going to start doing what was "necessary" without International consent? International organisations are there for a reason, and the status quo is usually there for a reason too.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Strategically, Europe is in danger of becoming the greatest impediment to positive change in the world. Europe clings to the international status quo, no matter how dreadful, simply because risk has been bred out of its culture. This leaves the United States (and Britain) with the choice of doing that which is necessary and just without Europe's support, or accepting the rules that made the 20th century history's bloodiest.
When was the last time you picked up something that said "Made In America" on it Ralph? You talk a good fight but I'm afraid you sold your American dream to the Chinese and it may not be long before they come to collect. Europe is by no means perfect but bear in mind that the guy who goes around talking about how big his dick is isn't always the guy who actually has the biggest dick. I believe in moderation in this world, it is not a sprint, it's a marathon and we've got a lot more miles on the clock and we're still doing okay.Kmarion via Ralph Peters wrote:
Europeans are correct when they insist that America has become a danger. We are, indeed, a tremendous threat to their self-satisfaction, to their dread of change, to their moral irresponsibility and to their dreary, state-supported cultures. Our ancestors chose a new kind of human freedom. Europeans have resisted it ever since.
I can't say that I agree with all of it. ftr.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I would hope not dude... it's a pretty one-dimensional argument. We've debated at length in previous discussions the gulf of ignorance that exists between our two societal systems and this guy seems to fall right into this gulf.Kmarion wrote:
I can't say that I agree with all of it. ftr.
Surely you don't believe there is some sort of shadowy, socialist secret police that holds back all talented individuals who dare to pop their head above the parapet? We have a banded tax system with higher rates of tax... that's it and that's all.
All kinds of government styles have flaws and weaknesses but in my humble opinion the socialistic capitalism aka capitalism with a conscience is by far the better one ...Braddock wrote:
I would hope not dude... it's a pretty one-dimensional argument. We've debated at length in previous discussions the gulf of ignorance that exists between our two societal systems and this guy seems to fall right into this gulf.Kmarion wrote:
I can't say that I agree with all of it. ftr.
Surely you don't believe there is some sort of shadowy, socialist secret police that holds back all talented individuals who dare to pop their head above the parapet? We have a banded tax system with higher rates of tax... that's it and that's all.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
I agree. It may not be perfect but it has that vital ingredient... moderation.Varegg wrote:
All kinds of government styles have flaws and weaknesses but in my humble opinion the socialistic capitalism aka capitalism with a conscience is by far the better one ...Braddock wrote:
I would hope not dude... it's a pretty one-dimensional argument. We've debated at length in previous discussions the gulf of ignorance that exists between our two societal systems and this guy seems to fall right into this gulf.Kmarion wrote:
I can't say that I agree with all of it. ftr.
Surely you don't believe there is some sort of shadowy, socialist secret police that holds back all talented individuals who dare to pop their head above the parapet? We have a banded tax system with higher rates of tax... that's it and that's all.
In 1492 (the same year that Columbus sailed) Spain forced the Jews to either convert or get out... That was after they finished driving the Moors out. The first atrocity by Europeans ever committed on American soil was due to religious intolerance. The Spaniards launched a sneak attack against our first real pilgrims (in FL the French) and murdered hundreds in their sleep because they said they were "filthy Lutherans". They hung them after they took out their eyes and posted a sign that said "I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to Lutherans ". Most of the French were not even Lutheran, they were Huguenots (My Ancestors). Europe was exporting it's religious bigotry long before Jamestown and Plymouth.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wrong, they were nutballs, just a different kind of nutball.KMarion wrote:
Of course the ultimate irony here is that my ancestors left Europe primarily to escape your supremely enlightened idea of a national church and the religious demands you made on each other.
In every European country there has never been a requirement to practise a religion AFAIK.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Let's be honest now Kmarion... the 'New World' has just been an extension of the religious battles of old Europe. Kennedy shot for being "the senator from Rome", the KKK burning black people out of their homes and persecuting Jews, the rabid fundamentalism of right-wing Christians, the modern day demonisation of Muslims... it's just as crazy and kooky as the old days really.Kmarion wrote:
In 1492 (the same year that Columbus sailed) Spain forced the Jews to either convert or get out... That was after they finished driving the Moors out. The first atrocity by Europeans ever committed on American soil was due to religious intolerance. The Spaniards launched a sneak attack against our first real pilgrims (in FL the French) and murdered hundreds in their sleep because they said they were "filthy Lutherans". They hung them after they took out their eyes and posted a sign that said "I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to Lutherans ". Most of the French were not even Lutheran, they were Huguenots (My Ancestors). Europe was exporting it's religious bigotry long before Jamestown and Plymouth.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wrong, they were nutballs, just a different kind of nutball.KMarion wrote:
Of course the ultimate irony here is that my ancestors left Europe primarily to escape your supremely enlightened idea of a national church and the religious demands you made on each other.
In every European country there has never been a requirement to practise a religion AFAIK.
I agree, but Dilbert_X's whitewashed view of religious acceptance is simply not accurate. Europe's bloodstained continent mastered the art religious persecution centuries ago.Braddock wrote:
Let's be honest now Kmarion... the 'New World' has just been an extension of the religious battles of old Europe. Kennedy shot for being "the senator from Rome", the KKK burning black people out of their homes and persecuting Jews, the rabid fundamentalism of right-wing Christians, the modern day demonisation of Muslims... it's just as crazy and kooky as the old days really.Kmarion wrote:
In 1492 (the same year that Columbus sailed) Spain forced the Jews to either convert or get out... That was after they finished driving the Moors out. The first atrocity by Europeans ever committed on American soil was due to religious intolerance. The Spaniards launched a sneak attack against our first real pilgrims (in FL the French) and murdered hundreds in their sleep because they said they were "filthy Lutherans". They hung them after they took out their eyes and posted a sign that said "I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to Lutherans ". Most of the French were not even Lutheran, they were Huguenots (My Ancestors). Europe was exporting it's religious bigotry long before Jamestown and Plymouth.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wrong, they were nutballs, just a different kind of nutball.
In every European country there has never been a requirement to practise a religion AFAIK.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
What is killing America is the deteriation of American pride and patriotism. We are not allowed these ideals because it shows us as elitist somehow which then breeds jealously and hate for us.Varegg wrote:
Beyond the obvious my friend ... this is exactly what is killing the great nation you live in ... the best have become such an elite now that they don't even give a fuck about their fellow citizens, the "royalty" of the US is slowly degenerating the qualities that made you great, you are close to not being able to buy an american made product in your own country and it's getting worse, each year 1 million people goes personally bankrupt because of credit card debts they obtain to live the american dream ... and your best of the best is to blame for this, outsourcing jobs and building more "Mall of America" like structures that kills a small town almost every week ...Flaming_Maniac wrote:
The reason America has been so successful in its history, even including its smooth inception and early transitions, is because it relies on the skill and wisdom of the best. Monarchies and dictatorships rely on the skills of maybe the top three people, not the top three thousand. Communism and socialism done right rely on smothering the best, in both spirit and means to do well. Contrary to popular belief in communism done right, communism brings out the worst in us. Communism where religion is nonexistent, outside influences are nil, and the last ruler has stamped out domestic opposition for at least two generations. It’s not good in theory and poor in practice as people love to say - it reduces humans to little more than robots in theory and any corruption of the theory makes things even worse in practice.
America has always played to the few strengths man as a whole has; the people with vision and motivation to get what they want. America doesn’t rely on their generosity, and it certainly doesn’t rely on their altruism. As great as these people might be, their motivations are still just as selfish as the rest of us, but so long as the best interests of the nation align with their best interest there is no problem. True in many cases the best can still come into positions of power, be it money, influence, or direct authority and have very corrupt motivations, but that corruption does create some level of dissent from the populace that makes it easier for the next guy to kick the incumbent out.
If you aren’t optimistic in humans as a whole, fine, flatten out the highs and lows. Just don’t have any poorly conceived notions that individualism is barbaric and that basing your society on the lowest common denominator is a step towards a utopia. You paint the world in black and white, while the rest of us are willing to put up with some brown to make the oranges and yellows stand out.
Individualism and greed is slowly but certainly bringing down your "empire" ... the american dream is just that ... a dream ... you are becomming the very society of nobles you once fought to free yopurself from
What is killing America is the deteriation of personal responsibility for ones self. The idea that we are not responsible for our own actions and decisions because "the man" forced us into situations we do want to be in.
What is killing America is the ideal of entitlement over achievment. The notion that the govt should increase its responsibilty in taking care of us so we do not have to, the notion that we should not have to work hard to achieve our American dream, that somehow we are entitled to it.
What is killing America is PC.
An increase lack of parenting skills because, we somehow lost the time to raise a good respectful, stable family with solid core values as a priority. We do not have time for our kids, and we can not be bothered with sitting down to a meal as a family because WoW awaits.
Our society and its individualism is what makes America great. We are losing that individualism and personal pride, that, coupled with everyone elses individualism and personal pride built a great country. What we are gaining is a collective society full of pussified, lazy, "life ain't fair", and "he has money and he won't give me any of it", whinners and complainers full of entitlement with little room for achievment.
I wouldn't say that exactly, I would say the corruption of American pride and patriotism has been very detrimental to America. Pride and patriotism are both good qualities essentially but they can be easily corrupted, just look at Hitler in Germany or Ahmedinijad in Iran.lowing wrote:
What is killing America is the deteriation of American pride and patriotism. We are not allowed these ideals because it shows us as elitist somehow which then breeds jealously and hate for us.
I wouldn't really have pinpointed that as any sort of threat to America but I suppose I've only ever visited the place. I would have thought that outsourcing of jobs and services to places like China was more of a threat.lowing wrote:
What is killing America is the deteriation of personal responsibility for ones self. The idea that we are not responsible for our own actions and decisions because "the man" forced us into situations we do want to be in.
You may be right in this regard, America just can't seem to master the art of socialism and if you are in fact going down that road then there is a distinct chance you might fuck it up horribly.lowing wrote:
What is killing America is the ideal of entitlement over achievment. The notion that the govt should increase its responsibilty in taking care of us so we do not have to, the notion that we should not have to work hard to achieve our American dream, that somehow we are entitled to it.
Agreed. PC is bullshit.lowing wrote:
What is killing America is PC.
Agreed. A global problem sadly.lowing wrote:
An increase lack of parenting skills because, we somehow lost the time to raise a good respectful, stable family with solid core values as a priority. We do not have time for our kids, and we can not be bothered with sitting down to a meal as a family because WoW awaits.
If you say so. I don't live there so I can't say.lowing wrote:
Our society and its individualism is what makes America great. We are losing that individualism and personal pride, that, coupled with everyone elses individualism and personal pride built a great country. What we are gaining is a collective society full of pussified, lazy, "life ain't fair", and "he has money and he won't give me any of it", whinners and complainers full of entitlement with little room for achievment.
Last edited by Braddock (2008-12-18 06:00:44)
That's incorrect lowing ... there is nothing wrong with the citizens of the US but rather the system they live with, you guys have patriotism enough for the rest of the world tbh ... and you don't seem to be afraid to lend a hand or help a neighbour in need, i also don't regard Americans to be especially lazy either ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
It is the system that promotes achievment and individualism that made the US great. We are losing it to PC and entitlement. ANd yeah, as a nation we are lazy and spoiled to the core.Varegg wrote:
That's incorrect lowing ... there is nothing wrong with the citizens of the US but rather the system they live with, you guys have patriotism enough for the rest of the world tbh ... and you don't seem to be afraid to lend a hand or help a neighbour in need, i also don't regard Americans to be especially lazy either ...
WHat we consider hardships and poverty is not the reality that the rest of the world considers these things. FOr us dial up is poverty and we will bitch up a storm and blame Bush if we do not have it.
Suggest you talk to some Americans that have lived outside the states for a few years, they will tell you it was one hell of a wake up call to realise socialism does not equal communism ... and as one example i have two friends from the US living and working in Norway and France and they both claimed they are reluctant to go back to work and live in the US because of the greed and individualism, one is Dem and the other Rep just for the record.lowing wrote:
It is the system that promotes achievment and individualism that made the US great. We are losing it to PC and entitlement. ANd yeah, as a nation we are lazy and spoiled to the core.Varegg wrote:
That's incorrect lowing ... there is nothing wrong with the citizens of the US but rather the system they live with, you guys have patriotism enough for the rest of the world tbh ... and you don't seem to be afraid to lend a hand or help a neighbour in need, i also don't regard Americans to be especially lazy either ...
WHat we consider hardships and poverty is not the reality that the rest of the world considers these things. FOr us dial up is poverty and we will bitch up a storm and blame Bush if we do not have it.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Socialist/Communist propaganda I tells ya!Varegg wrote:
Suggest you talk to some Americans that have lived outside the states for a few years, they will tell you it was one hell of a wake up call to realise socialism does not equal communism ... and as one example i have two friends from the US living and working in Norway and France and they both claimed they are reluctant to go back to work and live in the US because of the greed and individualism, one is Dem and the other Rep just for the record.lowing wrote:
It is the system that promotes achievment and individualism that made the US great. We are losing it to PC and entitlement. ANd yeah, as a nation we are lazy and spoiled to the core.Varegg wrote:
That's incorrect lowing ... there is nothing wrong with the citizens of the US but rather the system they live with, you guys have patriotism enough for the rest of the world tbh ... and you don't seem to be afraid to lend a hand or help a neighbour in need, i also don't regard Americans to be especially lazy either ...
WHat we consider hardships and poverty is not the reality that the rest of the world considers these things. FOr us dial up is poverty and we will bitch up a storm and blame Bush if we do not have it.
I can't lie, After going to Germany for a month and working I fell in love with the place. I would go there and work in a cold minute. Americans are self centered, we are lazy, we have a sense of entitlement, we have a sense of superiority over all others. This is what your friends I am sure, is the reason they want to stay over seas, and I do not blame themVaregg wrote:
Suggest you talk to some Americans that have lived outside the states for a few years, they will tell you it was one hell of a wake up call to realise socialism does not equal communism ... and as one example i have two friends from the US living and working in Norway and France and they both claimed they are reluctant to go back to work and live in the US because of the greed and individualism, one is Dem and the other Rep just for the record.lowing wrote:
It is the system that promotes achievment and individualism that made the US great. We are losing it to PC and entitlement. ANd yeah, as a nation we are lazy and spoiled to the core.Varegg wrote:
That's incorrect lowing ... there is nothing wrong with the citizens of the US but rather the system they live with, you guys have patriotism enough for the rest of the world tbh ... and you don't seem to be afraid to lend a hand or help a neighbour in need, i also don't regard Americans to be especially lazy either ...
WHat we consider hardships and poverty is not the reality that the rest of the world considers these things. FOr us dial up is poverty and we will bitch up a storm and blame Bush if we do not have it.
I lived in Venezuela for awhile.. I also stayed in Germany for a summer. Germany wasn't bad and although different I didn't see much difference in the way they treated each other compared to there and home. Venezuela, well that just sucked.. granted that was in the early 90's and there were a few coup attempts while I was there. My Dad was military and I've lived in a lot of other places around the US and I can't say that I (personally) would rather live anywhere else in the world. The perception of overbearing greed and "individualism" seems to be blown way out of proportion. If something bad happens to a teenage girl it's on the front page of every news paper. But when the community comes together as whole to help it is barely newsworthy. We have become intent on focusing on the bad. Greed and hate exist everywhere. Ultimately people are more important than places. It's all relevant.Braddock wrote:
Socialist/Communist propaganda I tells ya!Varegg wrote:
Suggest you talk to some Americans that have lived outside the states for a few years, they will tell you it was one hell of a wake up call to realise socialism does not equal communism ... and as one example i have two friends from the US living and working in Norway and France and they both claimed they are reluctant to go back to work and live in the US because of the greed and individualism, one is Dem and the other Rep just for the record.lowing wrote:
It is the system that promotes achievment and individualism that made the US great. We are losing it to PC and entitlement. ANd yeah, as a nation we are lazy and spoiled to the core.
WHat we consider hardships and poverty is not the reality that the rest of the world considers these things. FOr us dial up is poverty and we will bitch up a storm and blame Bush if we do not have it.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
At the end of the day the Governments of neither Europe nor the USA have enough restrictive structures in place to hold back anyone who is willing to put in the work and go out there and make something of themselves. We are accusing each other of things that realistically only exist in places like Cuba or North Korea.
Now Europeans may accuse the US of having no safety net for the unfortunate people in society who fall ill or suffer a bad run of luck financially but again I'm sure support structures exist that don't make the 6 o'clock news. As Kmarion says, people can be the most important element in a scenario and they can fill the gaps the Government don't fill... and vice versa in Europe I suppose (though I find Europe to be friendly and neighbourly too). As long as you're happy then you're grand and it would seem most of us are happy where we are.
Now Europeans may accuse the US of having no safety net for the unfortunate people in society who fall ill or suffer a bad run of luck financially but again I'm sure support structures exist that don't make the 6 o'clock news. As Kmarion says, people can be the most important element in a scenario and they can fill the gaps the Government don't fill... and vice versa in Europe I suppose (though I find Europe to be friendly and neighbourly too). As long as you're happy then you're grand and it would seem most of us are happy where we are.