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2008-12-05 22:48:17
Karbin
Member
+42|6582
The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14.
New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour.

There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working.

UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.

That make it easyer for you to read?
2008-12-05 23:17:14
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7003
I can read fine... lol... So on top of everything else... the people that work for the big 3 are underpaid...  ok got it...
( i would love to be underpaid 42 bucks an hour with benefits for manual labor... I work as hard or harder than they do in the service industry and don't make anything near that)
How come Toyota makes a profit on their cars and has comparable wages to the big 3 as you say...?
Do you work for the UAW or auto manufacturer? 

What do you think will happen if they get the 25-35 billion dollars?  Will they burn through it to pay salaries and benefits in 3 months?  Will they be on solid ground in 3 months or so when the money runs out?   Sell us on how this will benefit the country?

and it's    easier... not easyer
Love is the answer
2008-12-06 00:33:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Karbin wrote:

The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14.
New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour.

There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working.

UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.

That make it easyer for you to read?
Ok so let me get this straight.

The big 3 out sell everyone, have a better product, has comparable compensation, yet are about top fold up their tents and go outta business.

Actually I think the truth is more : Th big 3 builds junk, with over paid, lazy, extortionists and managment that lays down for them.
2008-12-06 03:42:54
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6510|Brisneyland

lowing wrote:

Actually I think the truth is more : Th big 3 builds junk, with over paid, lazy, extortionists and managment that lays down for them.
So are you calling Karbin a liar? His figures sound pretty realistic to me. He can also back his statements up. If what he says is true, and I suspect it is.... then its time to stop bashing the workers and try to find someone else to blame for this.

Last edited by Burwhale the Avenger (2008-12-06 03:43:24)

2008-12-06 04:06:42
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Having worked for Ford, albeit as a lowly component engineer in a cube farm.....

The big three redesign each new car from the ground up, new design, new components, new drivetrains - it all costs a hell of a lot of money and keeps a lot of engineers fat and happy.

Toyota and other carmakers reuse components over and over, 'new' cars are mostly just repackaging of the old one with a few tweaks here and there to inculde the latest technology. Its much more cost-effective, and less risky. Some exceptions obviously, like hybrids.

Toyota does market research, looks forward and builds cars around what people want now and what they will want in the future, the big three not so much - they can barely see beyond the next model.

The big three build outdated, low-tech cars, fuel-hungry cars, notwithstanding the fact they are 'new' each model.
I remember being in the room in the US when it was announced the next Mustang would have independent rear suspension - and seeing all the (US) engineers turn white.

Toyota etc aren't lumbered with the old white male macho bullshit.
The next Toyota doesn't have to be bigger, faster, more powerful, tougher looking. They know their customers are just average people who aren't repressed homosexuals who think they are going to tow a yacht to the beach every weekend, or climb a mountain and ford a river with a pickup full of dead deer.
They also know in most households its the woman who gets the final say on the car Lowing AMIRITE?
They understand their customers and build the cars their customers want to buy at a price their customers are willing to pay - its that simple.

BTW assembly line labour is a small fraction of what it costs to build a car, most work is now done by suppliers on min wage.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-06 04:09:04)

Fuck Israel
2008-12-06 08:25:38
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6470|Ireland
It is nice to see that the UAW and Corporations are on the same page when it comes to screwing Americans.

Now, what was the problem again?  Oh yeah, Americans think their products are overpriced and suck so they are going tits up.  For some reason I am fine with people who have no degree and make 3 times what I do losing their job because they shit in the bed they sleep in.  I drive an SUV made in fucking Korea and am fine with it because Detroit has nothing to offer me.  They were able to ship a better product for half way around the world, sell it for less, and back up their quality with 3 time the fucking warrenty Detroit offers.  Hmmmm, I think bankruptcy will be a good reality check to the retards.  150,000 miles in 6 years with nothing but new tires, brakes, filters, belts, and fluid changes.  Even my wifes '01 Honda Mini Van put 120,000 miles on it before I notice the tranny going bad.  They covered it out of warrenty and all they had me pay was $370 for fluid and labor. 

My '79 Ford Mustang's dash fell off in my lap at 80,000 miles, timing chain and gears had to be replaced at 70,000 miles, electronic ignition processor at 75,000, and I drove it to the junkyard at less than 100,000 miles because the heater core went out and leaked antifreeze all over the inside of my car which the interior was already falling apart with broke door handles, rattles, windows not rolling up, and door hinges screwed up.  This was a typical experience for all my US vehicles I owned.  So yeah, FUCK YOU DETROIT.
2008-12-06 08:32:56
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6470|Ireland

Dilbert_X wrote:

The big three redesign each new car from the ground up, new design, new components, new drivetrains - it all costs a hell of a lot of money and keeps a lot of engineers fat and happy.
This statement shows you know nothing about what you are talking about.  The engines in the big 3 are the same shit from the 50's rehashed which is why they get shitty gas mileage.  The chevy 350 trans was around forever and I ended up replacing the turbo shift 4 speed in my '82 chevy with one just because they are more durable and cheaper.

Hell, from 76-84 chevy was unable to make windsheild wiper systems that didn't have a mind of their own and would turn on and off at random.
2008-12-06 08:47:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I think the truth is more : Th big 3 builds junk, with over paid, lazy, extortionists and managment that lays down for them.
So are you calling Karbin a liar? His figures sound pretty realistic to me. He can also back his statements up. If what he says is true, and I suspect it is.... then its time to stop bashing the workers and try to find someone else to blame for this.
Nope, the facts are, regardless as to what Karbin says.

The big 3 have been mis-managed for years, unions have compensated themselves right out of a fuckin job. They are loosing money and their vehicles suck in gas and in quality, and it has caught up to them.
2008-12-07 00:55:17
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Lotta_drool wrote:

This statement shows you know nothing about what you are talking about.
My comment applies to European cars produced by the big three, everything was re-engineered each model.
'The big three build outdated, low-tech cars, fuel-hungry cars, notwithstanding the fact they are 'new' each model.'
This probably applies more to the US, where not much changed apart from a little trim and a few panels.
I have no idea what all the engineers at Ford US did all day, apart from the Body In White engineers.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-07 00:57:03)

Fuck Israel
2008-12-07 20:17:16
Karbin
Member
+42|6582
Interesting information about car quality ... Try question 12 ....

If you have noticed all the bad news the last 3 years regarding the falling sales of the domestic auto industry, you might be interested in the following questions, possible answers are listed alphabetically.
The correct answers, along with source, are given below.   

1.         Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?
a.        Germany
b.        Japan
c.        Korea
d.        United States

2.        As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?
a.        Chrysler
b.        Ford
c.        GM
d.        Nissan
e.        Toyota
f.        Volkswagen

3.        Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a.        Acura, BMW, Cadillac (all luxury makes)
b.        Honda, Mercury, Nissan (all non-luxury makes)
c.        Acura (lux), Chevrolet (non-lux), BMW (lux), Mazda (non-lux)

4.        Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?
a.        Accord (Honda)
b.        Altima (Nissan)
c.        Camry (Toyota)
d.        Malibu (Chevrolet)

5.        Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?
a.        Avalon (Toyota)
b.        Grand Prix (Pontiac)
c.        Sable (Mercury)

6.        Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?
a.        Dakota (Dodge)
b.        Ranger (Ford)
c.        Tacoma (Toyota)

7.        Which car is the most economical overall?
a.        Aveo (Chevrolet)
b.        Fit (Honda)
c.        Prius (Toyota)

8.        Which car did the LA Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?
a.        A6 (Audi)
b.        CTS (Cadillac)
c.        RL (Acura)

9.        Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?
a.        Chevrolet
b.        Honda
c.        Toyota

10.   Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?
a.        Aura (Saturn)
b.        Camry (Toyota)
c.        Fit (Honda)
11.   Which car won the same award for 2008?
a.        Accord (Honda)
b.        Altima coupe (Nissan)
c.        Malibu (Chevrolet)

12.   Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
a.       Chrysler     
b.       Ford
c.       General Motors
d.       Hyundai
e.       Toyota
f.       Volkswagen


ANSWERS:
1.  Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States.
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008115

2.        As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago.  The second worst was Toyota.   
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/conte … 55098..htm

3.        Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a.        Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b.        Answer:  Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c.        Answer:  Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008063

4.  Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer:  The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima.  The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.   
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick.   Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … Large-Cars
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008063

5.  Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon.  Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … Large-Cars

6.  Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer:  The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … s-and-Vans

7.  Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer:  Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America, taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo.  The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press … ticle.html

8.   Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer:  “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.”  Dan Neil, LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/autom … otogallery

9.  Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer:  The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award.  How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius?  Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that?  A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!!  Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

10.   Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer:  Not only was the  Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

11.  Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer:  GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95.   The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

12.   Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer:  Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.     

This Q&A list was put together by an employee of an American car company who just might lose his job because of public perceptions that do not match reality.  If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position.  Rethink Detroit.

Detroit automakers:  79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.   
Foreign automakers:  33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.



"They are loosing money and their vehicles suck in gas and in quality, and it has caught up to them."
What was thta again, lowing?
Eat your hat and try posting facts instead of crap

Last edited by Karbin (2008-12-07 20:20:45)

2008-12-07 20:58:37
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6732|The Land of Scott Walker
Karbin's post brings some interesting info to the table.  I get tired of hearing people saying the US builds crap and that our mileage is less than our competitors.  It's simply not true.  Compare the EPA mileage ratings on competing US and foreign cars and you'll find them nearly identical for similar engine layout.  The big 3, especially GM, have brought some very cutting edge technology to the market place that exceeds that of their foreign competitors, yet people still praise the foreign manufacturers ... amazing.

I'm sure we could all point to crappy domestic cars we've had ... mostly likely because someone who owned it didn't do the maintenance necessary to prevent excessive wear.  I have a 1988 Olds w/ 219K miles on it and all I've done to it is traditional maintenance after buying it from an older gentleman.  A good friend of mine has a brand new VW Passat and he's had it in the dealership getting repaired more than he's driven it.
2008-12-07 21:23:35
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7003
I agree that there are some great American cars... my question is... Why do they need 25-35 billion dollars?
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? … 2NkMTIwZmU
https://theamericanscene.com/images/81.gif
Love is the answer
2008-12-07 23:28:03
Karbin
Member
+42|6582

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

I agree that there are some great American cars... my question is... Why do they need 25-35 billion dollars?
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? … 2NkMTIwZmU
http://theamericanscene.com/images/81.gif
Good question, thanks

Restructuring

At this time the Detroit 3 can build about 30 million cars a year (I think ?) and the market will only support around 20.
This over building is call the "Push" model. Push as many as you can out the door and do rebates to sell when needed.
All three are changing to the "Pull" model. In Pull, you wait for the orders, then build. Less rebates, less staff, less plants.
Plants closed, staff let go all costs money. All are classed as a one time cost loss.

In a normal economy, it would be a big hit to any company but, scaled properly, is survivable.
A fast rise to unbelievably heights for gas, a bad market model, and a crash in the credit market, made for a perfect storm.

The bad market model was being changed at the time of the crash. Smaller cars and alternative powering were being planned.
Now, have been pushed to the fore.
As to the credit market...well.....
Company's with AAAA credit six months ago, can't get a loan.

What the Detroit 3 have asked for is NOT a bailout
A bailout was what the Wall Street gang asked for and got, even the twits at AIG. A bailout is NOT repayable.
What they ARE asking for is a loan. A loan that is repayable, with interest. Sorry, I don't know the rate.

Now, I'll ask you this.
Would you rather,as a tax payer, foot a loan or pay out unemployment and retraining costs?
That's not just for the people from the Detroit 3 but also, for the 3-5 people that work in the supply plants for every one person in plant.

As for filing chapter 11.
Would you buy a car off the lot from a company that's declared bankruptcy?
2008-12-07 23:56:06
Karbin
Member
+42|6582

Stingray24 wrote:

Karbin's post brings some interesting info to the table.  I get tired of hearing people saying the US builds crap and that our mileage is less than our competitors.  It's simply not true.  Compare the EPA mileage ratings on competing US and foreign cars and you'll find them nearly identical for similar engine layout.  The big 3, especially GM, have brought some very cutting edge technology to the market place that exceeds that of their foreign competitors, yet people still praise the foreign manufacturers ... amazing.

I'm sure we could all point to crappy domestic cars we've had ... mostly likely because someone who owned it didn't do the maintenance necessary to prevent excessive wear.  I have a 1988 Olds w/ 219K miles on it and all I've done to it is traditional maintenance after buying it from an older gentleman.  A good friend of mine has a brand new VW Passat and he's had it in the dealership getting repaired more than he's driven it.
84 Sunbird J2000 by GM. Was a gas and go car I had and put a lot of miles on for next to nothing in repairs.
In 89 it had 120000 miles on it when I got T boned by a van. I walked way form that one.
89 Sundance. Got this one off the lot and 13 years later put it on the hook with 280000 on it. Rusted out. Another gas and go.

Worst car.
77 Datsun B210. Got this one in 79 with 20000 on it. Leaks, bad wiring and ball joints. Ok so i lived out in the sticks at the time. Still, in the shop way to often.
Dumped it for the Sun Chicken 
2008-12-08 03:32:03
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Karbin wrote:

What they ARE asking for is a loan. A loan that is repayable, with interest. Sorry, I don't know the rate.
A loan to a doomed company isn't a loan its a gift.

In this situation I am certainly behind helping companies keep going instead of paying dole.
But they need a workable plan, for which they need fresh exec teams.

And I still feel sorry for the small companies who get nothing, and the well run companies who get nothing.
Not sure how to fix that.
Fuck Israel
2008-12-08 03:38:23
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Catbox wrote:

I agree that there are some great American cars... my question is... Why do they need 25-35 billion dollars?
IIRC Development of a new vehicle platform runs at roughly $1-2bn these days.
$25-35bn is a lot of cash.

The big three need to sell profitable vehicles, which as the big Japanese three can show its not so hard.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-08 03:42:10)

Fuck Israel
2008-12-08 05:25:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Karbin wrote:

Interesting information about car quality ... Try question 12 ....

If you have noticed all the bad news the last 3 years regarding the falling sales of the domestic auto industry, you might be interested in the following questions, possible answers are listed alphabetically.
The correct answers, along with source, are given below.   

1.         Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?
a.        Germany
b.        Japan
c.        Korea
d.        United States

2.        As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?
a.        Chrysler
b.        Ford
c.        GM
d.        Nissan
e.        Toyota
f.        Volkswagen

3.        Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a.        Acura, BMW, Cadillac (all luxury makes)
b.        Honda, Mercury, Nissan (all non-luxury makes)
c.        Acura (lux), Chevrolet (non-lux), BMW (lux), Mazda (non-lux)

4.        Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?
a.        Accord (Honda)
b.        Altima (Nissan)
c.        Camry (Toyota)
d.        Malibu (Chevrolet)

5.        Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?
a.        Avalon (Toyota)
b.        Grand Prix (Pontiac)
c.        Sable (Mercury)

6.        Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?
a.        Dakota (Dodge)
b.        Ranger (Ford)
c.        Tacoma (Toyota)

7.        Which car is the most economical overall?
a.        Aveo (Chevrolet)
b.        Fit (Honda)
c.        Prius (Toyota)

8.        Which car did the LA Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?
a.        A6 (Audi)
b.        CTS (Cadillac)
c.        RL (Acura)

9.        Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?
a.        Chevrolet
b.        Honda
c.        Toyota

10.   Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?
a.        Aura (Saturn)
b.        Camry (Toyota)
c.        Fit (Honda)
11.   Which car won the same award for 2008?
a.        Accord (Honda)
b.        Altima coupe (Nissan)
c.        Malibu (Chevrolet)

12.   Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
a.       Chrysler     
b.       Ford
c.       General Motors
d.       Hyundai
e.       Toyota
f.       Volkswagen


ANSWERS:
1.  Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States.
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008115

2.        As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago.  The second worst was Toyota.   
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/conte … 55098..htm

3.        Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a.        Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b.        Answer:  Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c.        Answer:  Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008063

4.  Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer:  The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima.  The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.   
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick.   Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … Large-Cars
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/r … ID=2008063

5.  Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon.  Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … Large-Cars

6.  Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer:  The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2 … s-and-Vans

7.  Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer:  Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America, taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo.  The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press … ticle.html

8.   Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer:  “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.”  Dan Neil, LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/autom … otogallery

9.  Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer:  The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award.  How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius?  Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that?  A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!!  Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

10.   Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer:  Not only was the  Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

11.  Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer:  GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95.   The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

12.   Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer:  Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.     

This Q&A list was put together by an employee of an American car company who just might lose his job because of public perceptions that do not match reality.  If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position.  Rethink Detroit.

Detroit automakers:  79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.   
Foreign automakers:  33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.



"They are loosing money and their vehicles suck in gas and in quality, and it has caught up to them."
What was thta again, lowing?
Eat your hat and try posting facts instead of crap
Good stuff, unfortunately it was as you said "for the last 3 years", do you not think 3 years out of 100 is really too little too late? The Big 3 's reputation has been long established and well deserved. By the way if they are doing everything right, please explain the fact that they are all going tits up, and moving plants to foriegn countries to escape the stranglehold that union strongarm tactics, and threats have had on these companies.

But hey it is too late for me, I will neve buy another piece of shit American car, I tried it and htey suck, specifically a '97 Chrysler Town and Country. 30,000 miles later and 5 trips to the dealership I traded it in and went back to Honda.

I will give credit where credit is due however. I bought a '96 Ranger used, with 30,000 miles on it. It was a great truck and I missed it when I sold it for a bigger truck. I would buy another Ford truck again.
2008-12-08 15:01:16
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,056|7059|PNW

lowing wrote:

Actually I think the truth is more : Th big 3 builds junk, with over paid, lazy, extortionists and managment that lays down for them.
To be fair, the big three (though not without fault) were overregulated by congress. The other side of the coin to this whole affair is that a domestic automotive industry is vital to national security. The US has to maintain the manufacturing capacity to fall back on its own resources in times of need, so they're going to have to be bailed out in one form or the other.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-12-08 15:01:58)

2008-12-09 03:52:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually I think the truth is more : Th big 3 builds junk, with over paid, lazy, extortionists and managment that lays down for them.
To be fair, the big three (though not without fault) were overregulated by congress. The other side of the coin to this whole affair is that a domestic automotive industry is vital to national security. The US has to maintain the manufacturing capacity to fall back on its own resources in times of need, so they're going to have to be bailed out in one form or the other.
Then they unions included should be held accountable for their actions, and answer to the taxpayers, who should then decide salaries, benefits etc.......Sounds a little too socialist/communist to me. No thanks, just let them fold and someone else will take over as the next big 3
2008-12-09 03:55:46
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Lowing wrote:

No thanks, just let them fold and someone else will take over as the next big 3
Toyota, Honda, Nissan.

Karbin wrote:

Detroit automakers:  79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.   
Foreign automakers:  33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
Enjoy
Fuck Israel
2008-12-09 03:57:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lowing wrote:

No thanks, just let them fold and someone else will take over as the next big 3
Toyota, Honda, Nissan.

Karbin wrote:

Detroit automakers:  79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.   
Foreign automakers:  33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
Enjoy
So be it.
2008-12-09 04:00:24
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Lowing wrote:

So be it.
You heard it here, Lowing wants Americans unemployed and buying Japanese cars.
What a patriot
Fuck Israel
2008-12-09 04:11:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lowing wrote:

So be it.
You heard it here, Lowing wants Americans unemployed and buying Japanese cars.
What a patriot
Not really true, I do not "want" any such thing. But I also do not want t othrow my money to prop up a corrupt industry.

The point is, competition dictiates that the big 3 have failed in a free market. put a vegetable on life support and pump money into a dead body is a waste of money,( my money). They failed just like airlines have failed, if they get replaced it will not be the end of the world. Those people will find jobs with whoever replaces the big 3.
2008-12-09 04:14:06
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Lowing wrote:

Those people will find jobs with whoever replaces the big 3.
More likely McJobs
Fuck Israel
2008-12-09 05:00:53
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6510|Brisneyland

lowing wrote:

Sounds a little too socialist/communist to me. No thanks, just let them fold and someone else will take over as the next big 3
I wouldnt be so quick to wish unemployment on the millions of people that work with the auto industry in the US for the big 3.
If they all lost their jobs the economy would probably die in the arse in a big way. If you take the wages of a couple a million people out of the economy then the money they wont have cant go into food, or clothes, holidays or other industries. The flow on from there is scary as other industries may be forced to fold. Who knows, If rich people were trying to save money as a result, then maybe helicopter mechanics wouldnt be in such high demand.

Look, I really hope no one here will lose their job, I am only trying to illustrate a point. The main thing is, its pretty much a shit sandwich, but someone has to eat it.

 

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