lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Karbin wrote:

Well lowing, this brawl has been going on for a bit with you so.......

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=114464

and

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=102455

You have shown that you WILL NOT consider an opinion other then your deep seated distrust of unions due to your experience with the collapse of the US airline industry's.
Actually not true, I have a deep seated distrust for unions because they tote a banner of protection from the corporations, and the fact of the matter is, when it comes down to it, they protect no one. They are nothing more than a cooperation themselves, just a corrupt, just as "greedy, except the union gets its power from pinning a companies employees against the company. Instilling a false sense of "need" for a union. They hold a business hostage for extortion purposes using threats against the company and fellow workers to accomplish their agendas.



Hope ya have a better understanding as to why I hate unions.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

tuckergustav wrote:

I was just involved in the exact same real life debate 2 days ago...nice.

I am usually pro-union in order to protect the "little people" from corporate screw overs...but with the way things are...we need the industry more than we need the unions...GM workers are "in some cases" grossly overpaid for the work they do.  Even if they took a steep pay cut...they would still be in the upper tier salary wise for their skills.

this is a rare occasion indeed...I kinda sorta agree with lowing...except for the whole.."we could do without the big 3"
Sorry ya gotta agree with me. They have a shot for that

I did not say we could do withoutthe big 3, I simply think if they go under so be it, there will be someone new to take their places Just like when a big airline goes under.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Awww, *sniffle sniffle* a heart felt plea by the UAW
They supported Obama. I supported McCain. Shouldn't Obama be magically beaming money-rays into their bank account with his smile?
Well if he doesn't I am sure they union will slash his tires and send him threats. It is what they do when they do not get their way. Or am I wrong about that Karbin?
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7126
Ok the wonderful Unions can stay... and we can shovel 25, 50, 100 billion in the next year or so and when we finally wake up and cutoff taxpayers money to keep these dinosaur companies going... they will either go into bankruptcy and re invent themselves or they will be a memory...
  Sucks for the workers that got used to making crappy cars that made little or no profit for their company
and they still got paid a lot more than what a normal market would bear...  those days are over i'm afraid....

Southern auto companies without unions stand to rise and benefit
http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/nov … pper_hand/

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-12-02 21:00:09)

Love is the answer
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

Ok the wonderful Unions can stay... and we can shovel 25, 50, 100 billion in the next year or so and when we finally wake up and cutoff taxpayers money to keep these dinosaur companies going... they will either go into bankruptcy and re invent themselves or they will be a memory...
  Sucks for the workers that got used to making crappy cars that made little or no profit for their company
and they still got paid a lot more than what a normal market would bear...  those days are over i'm afraid....

Southern auto companies without unions stand to rise and benefit
http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/nov … pper_hand/
Gee, I am trying to shed a tear, but just can't seem to manage one.
13rin
Member
+977|6888

lowing wrote:

Spark wrote:

axe the UAW
I didn't know you liked communism
get back with me when you address the post and make sense.
It was in bold
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081203/ap_ … ceo_travel

Boy I feel better, the CEO's of the big 3 are gunna show just how much they have changed over night by driving a car just like one of us ordinary peons. Front page news mind you, CEO's will drive!! If this doesn't spell commitment, nothing does.

I am convinced, someone write them the check.
Karbin
Member
+42|6704

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Well lowing, this brawl has been going on for a bit with you so.......

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=114464

and

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=102455

You have shown that you WILL NOT consider an opinion other then your deep seated distrust of unions due to your experience with the collapse of the US airline industry's.
Actually not true, I have a deep seated distrust for unions because they tote a banner of protection from the corporations, and the fact of the matter is, when it comes down to it, they protect no one. They are nothing more than a cooperation themselves, just a corrupt, just as "greedy, except the union gets its power from pinning a companies employees against the company. Instilling a false sense of "need" for a union. They hold a business hostage for extortion purposes using threats against the company and fellow workers to accomplish their agendas.



Hope ya have a better understanding as to why I hate unions.
Hmmm.......
Sill holding on to your prejudice, I see.

When any company considers these tactics viable...you'll get resistance..I.E. a union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_the_Overpass

Add Matewan to the list.

Oh, you say. Thats Old stuff.
Try again
Navistar International’s campaign to break a strike at its Chatham, Ontario, truck plant has claimed its first victims. On Monday, June 24, an employee of the professional strike-breaking firm London Protection International drove a van through a picket line established by strikers and their supporters at a staging area from which Navistar intended to bus scabs into the plant. Three picketers, all of them Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) union members from Windsor, Ontario, were hospitalized, one with critical injuries.

The running down of the three CAW members was a calculated and completely unprovoked act of criminal violence. Don Milner, the most seriously injured in the attack, suffered a broken pelvis, a broken arm and severe internal injuries requiring hours of surgery. According to witnesses, after the van’s front tires had rolled over Milner, the van stopped, only to accelerate and pass over Milner with the back tires. It then sped off.


Now let's look at how it's changed over the years.
(From the Charleston News)

"Many foreign companies also use temporary workers, who make less per hour than full-time employees and are easier to eliminate when a manufacturer cuts production. Temporary workers are supplied by outside contractors that pay their wages and supply benefits. Such workers are more plentiful in Southern right-to-work states, such as Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina."

Two items here:

1
Yep temp workers for 18 months, then IF, you get brought in full time you are still , in most plants, subject to a three month review.
If you get hurt on the job your contract may not get picked up again.
2
The so called right-to-work laws in the south.

Opponents further argue that because unions are weakened by these laws, wages are lowered and worker safety and health is endangered. They cite statistics from the United States Department of Labor showing, for example, that in 2003 the rate of workplace fatalities per 100,000 workers was highest in right-to-work states. Nineteen of the top 25 states for worker fatality rates were right-to-work states, while 3 of the bottom 25 states were right-to-work states.

Right to work laws can also be argued against on the basis of libertarian principles, as a government interference in labour relations. However, some libertarians say just the opposite.

And you support this .....stuff, lowing?

Last edited by Karbin (2008-12-03 09:34:05)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Karbin wrote:

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Well lowing, this brawl has been going on for a bit with you so.......

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=114464

and

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=102455

You have shown that you WILL NOT consider an opinion other then your deep seated distrust of unions due to your experience with the collapse of the US airline industry's.
Actually not true, I have a deep seated distrust for unions because they tote a banner of protection from the corporations, and the fact of the matter is, when it comes down to it, they protect no one. They are nothing more than a cooperation themselves, just a corrupt, just as "greedy, except the union gets its power from pinning a companies employees against the company. Instilling a false sense of "need" for a union. They hold a business hostage for extortion purposes using threats against the company and fellow workers to accomplish their agendas.



Hope ya have a better understanding as to why I hate unions.
Hmmm.......
Sill holding on to your prejudice, I see.

When any company considers these tactics viable...you'll get resistance..I.E. a union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_the_Overpass

Add Matewan to the list.

Oh, you say. Thats Old stuff.
Try again
Navistar International’s campaign to break a strike at its Chatham, Ontario, truck plant has claimed its first victims. On Monday, June 24, an employee of the professional strike-breaking firm London Protection International drove a van through a picket line established by strikers and their supporters at a staging area from which Navistar intended to bus scabs into the plant. Three picketers, all of them Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) union members from Windsor, Ontario, were hospitalized, one with critical injuries.

The running down of the three CAW members was a calculated and completely unprovoked act of criminal violence. Don Milner, the most seriously injured in the attack, suffered a broken pelvis, a broken arm and severe internal injuries requiring hours of surgery. According to witnesses, after the van’s front tires had rolled over Milner, the van stopped, only to accelerate and pass over Milner with the back tires. It then sped off.


Now let's look at how it's changed over the years.
(From the Charleston News)

"Many foreign companies also use temporary workers, who make less per hour than full-time employees and are easier to eliminate when a manufacturer cuts production. Temporary workers are supplied by outside contractors that pay their wages and supply benefits. Such workers are more plentiful in Southern right-to-work states, such as Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina."

Two items here:

1
Yep temp workers for 18 months, then IF, you get brought in full time you are still , in most plants, subject to a three month review.
If you get hurt on the job your contract may not get picked up again.
2
The so called right-to-work laws in the south.

Opponents further argue that because unions are weakened by these laws, wages are lowered and worker safety and health is endangered. They cite statistics from the United States Department of Labor showing, for example, that in 2003 the rate of workplace fatalities per 100,000 workers was highest in right-to-work states. Nineteen of the top 25 states for worker fatality rates were right-to-work states, while 3 of the bottom 25 states were right-to-work states.

Right to work laws can also be argued against on the basis of libertarian principles, as a government interference in labour relations. However, some libertarians say just the opposite.

And you support this .....stuff, lowing?
Yeah ok, so it was a union striker who got hurt this time. Do you really wanna compare incidents as to gets hurt usually? I double dare ya!

Please explain how lowering a workers wage endangers their health and safety.

I also do not know what you mean by prejudices. Is there anything  isaid that is not true in the previous post? If so, argue it.

I also think you seem to forget 1 very important fact in all of this. These jobs belong to the company, NOT the workers. Not really any way around that fact.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA
Damn things just keep getting sadder and sadder for the union workers.

Now it looks like they are no longer going to be able to draw a paycheck while on lay off status. What next, being fired when you get caught sleeping or stealing?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081203/ap_ … /autos_uaw
Karbin
Member
+42|6704
"I also do not know what you mean by prejudices. Is there anything I said that is not true in the previous post? If so, argue it."

I have in other threads with you. You spout prejudice bias, I counter with facts, yet here we are with you doing it again and not dealing with the facts, just your assumptions, bias and passing it off as THEE answer to the problems in the industry.
And your answer is to beat on the unions and the workers, who have no say in the company's business model, and proclaim that they are the problem.
That they are the ones, and the only ones, through their unreasonable demands are responsible for the current state of affairs.
IF you spent as much time on a failed business model, I mite have been more restive of your anti-union drivel.
Unfortunately, as you have stated before:
"Yer right, I guess I am so full of disgust with unions I am almost happy to watch the entire industry collapse into its own greed and corruption."
When asked about 2% of American workers being thrown out of work over this, your reply was:
"I do not remember the UAW giving much of a shit when I or the other 75,000 airline employees lost our jobs."

So it looks like it all comes down to lowing not getting the support that he thought he should so how dear anyone else get it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Karbin wrote:

"I also do not know what you mean by prejudices. Is there anything I said that is not true in the previous post? If so, argue it."

I have in other threads with you. You spout prejudice bias, I counter with facts, yet here we are with you doing it again and not dealing with the facts, just your assumptions, bias and passing it off as THEE answer to the problems in the industry.
And your answer is to beat on the unions and the workers, who have no say in the company's business model, and proclaim that they are the problem.
That they are the ones, and the only ones, through their unreasonable demands are responsible for the current state of affairs.
IF you spent as much time on a failed business model, I mite have been more restive of your anti-union drivel.
Unfortunately, as you have stated before:
"Yer right, I guess I am so full of disgust with unions I am almost happy to watch the entire industry collapse into its own greed and corruption."
When asked about 2% of American workers being thrown out of work over this, your reply was:
"I do not remember the UAW giving much of a shit when I or the other 75,000 airline employees lost our jobs."

So it looks like it all comes down to lowing not getting the support that he thought he should so how dear anyone else get it.
You say unions have no say in company business? This is bullshit. Read the OP, the very reason Ford could not open this latest and greatest assembly plant in the US was because of the unions. So so much for that theory.

You are about the only one that refuses to acknowledge union activities as partial reason for the demise of the big 3.


Deny union greed and/or corruption if not then my post is legit is it not?


You also forgot to finish the quote on why I supposed to give a shit about those 2% of the work force, so I will ask again. If I am supposed to care so much. How many of them or how aobut just you, activley sought out the most expensive airline tickets when you flew, ya know, just to make sure I stayed employed?
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7126
regardless of what we argue... The unions are playing a huge part in pricing the workers they are supposedly protecting right out of a job...
Common sense dictates that you can't keep running any company where you make little or no profit...
Love is the answer
Karbin
Member
+42|6704

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

"I also do not know what you mean by prejudices. Is there anything I said that is not true in the previous post? If so, argue it."

I have in other threads with you. You spout prejudice bias, I counter with facts, yet here we are with you doing it again and not dealing with the facts, just your assumptions, bias and passing it off as THEE answer to the problems in the industry.
And your answer is to beat on the unions and the workers, who have no say in the company's business model, and proclaim that they are the problem.
That they are the ones, and the only ones, through their unreasonable demands are responsible for the current state of affairs.
IF you spent as much time on a failed business model, I mite have been more restive of your anti-union drivel.
Unfortunately, as you have stated before:
"Yer right, I guess I am so full of disgust with unions I am almost happy to watch the entire industry collapse into its own greed and corruption."
When asked about 2% of American workers being thrown out of work over this, your reply was:
"I do not remember the UAW giving much of a shit when I or the other 75,000 airline employees lost our jobs."

So it looks like it all comes down to lowing not getting the support that he thought he should so how dear anyone else get it.
You say unions have no say in company business? This is bullshit. Read the OP, the very reason Ford could not open this latest and greatest assembly plant in the US was because of the unions. So so much for that theory.

You are about the only one that refuses to acknowledge union activities as partial reason for the demise of the big 3.


Deny union greed and/or corruption if not then my post is legit is it not?


You also forgot to finish the quote on why I supposed to give a shit about those 2% of the work force, so I will ask again. If I am supposed to care so much. How many of them or how aobut just you, activley sought out the most expensive airline tickets when you flew, ya know, just to make sure I stayed employed?
Try again.... what law tells Ford that since they have a union in some plants, they must have a union in all plants.
By the logic all Ford plants would have "closed shops" even in the so called "right to work" states". So much for YOUR theory.
As for the demise of the Detroit 3......
Labour costs are within the same limits, here, as the "transplants" just different working rules. So you can't blame the unions for that.
Benefits...close but, yes union ones are better. And with med care in the states..... ya I can REALLY see someone wanting better care for less out of pocket...but I guess thats not a issue for you.
I have never denied union corruption or greed in the states, it's one of a long list of things that had us leave the UAW.
As to the airlines..... They yelled, begged and bought votes for deregulation.....and got it. Then couldn't turn a buck even with a so called "security surcharge" that didn't add any security and, for one airline, lead to a bombed aircraft.
Did I care about what happened to the US airline industry  HELL YES.
Happens there, it can and did happen here.
And having a "marketable skill" has never made a difference in my life. There is always someone who will swim a little closer to the bottom. Cut a little more and then go bust and in the process drive down the over all wage earned...for everyone.
But I guess you can't, don't or won't see that. 
Your loss.
But then again you are making it mine.

Last edited by Karbin (2008-12-03 16:52:15)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Karbin wrote:

lowing wrote:

Karbin wrote:

"I also do not know what you mean by prejudices. Is there anything I said that is not true in the previous post? If so, argue it."

I have in other threads with you. You spout prejudice bias, I counter with facts, yet here we are with you doing it again and not dealing with the facts, just your assumptions, bias and passing it off as THEE answer to the problems in the industry.
And your answer is to beat on the unions and the workers, who have no say in the company's business model, and proclaim that they are the problem.
That they are the ones, and the only ones, through their unreasonable demands are responsible for the current state of affairs.
IF you spent as much time on a failed business model, I mite have been more restive of your anti-union drivel.
Unfortunately, as you have stated before:
"Yer right, I guess I am so full of disgust with unions I am almost happy to watch the entire industry collapse into its own greed and corruption."
When asked about 2% of American workers being thrown out of work over this, your reply was:
"I do not remember the UAW giving much of a shit when I or the other 75,000 airline employees lost our jobs."

So it looks like it all comes down to lowing not getting the support that he thought he should so how dear anyone else get it.
You say unions have no say in company business? This is bullshit. Read the OP, the very reason Ford could not open this latest and greatest assembly plant in the US was because of the unions. So so much for that theory.

You are about the only one that refuses to acknowledge union activities as partial reason for the demise of the big 3.


Deny union greed and/or corruption if not then my post is legit is it not?


You also forgot to finish the quote on why I supposed to give a shit about those 2% of the work force, so I will ask again. If I am supposed to care so much. How many of them or how aobut just you, activley sought out the most expensive airline tickets when you flew, ya know, just to make sure I stayed employed?
Try again.... what law tells Ford that since they have a union in some plants, they must have a union in all plants.
By the logic all Ford plants would have "closed shops" even in the so called "right to work" states". So much for YOUR theory.
As for the demise of the Detroit 3......
Labour costs are within the same limits, here, as the "transplants" just different working rules. So you can't blame the unions for that.
Benefits...close but, yes union ones are better. And with med care in the states..... ya I can REALLY see someone wanting better care for less out of pocket...but I guess thats not a issue for you.
I have never denied union corruption or greed in the states, it's one of a long list of things that had us leave the UAW.
As to the airlines..... They yelled, begged and bought votes for deregulation.....and got it. Then couldn't turn a buck even with a so called "security surcharge" that didn't add any security and, for one airline, lead to a bombed aircraft.
Did I care about what happened to the US airline industry  HELL YES.
Happens there, it can and did happen here.
And having a "marketable skill" has never made a difference in my life. There is always someone who will swim a little closer to the bottom. Cut a little more and then go bust and in the process drive down the over all wage earned...for everyone.
But I guess you can't, don't or won't see that. 
Your loss.
But then again you are making it mine.
Read the OP, the union opposed the new plants, and we all know why. We also know what happens in a union shop when they do not get their way. OR do we really need to get into union job actions?

Also I noticed you did not want to touch the issue of who usually gets hurt around picket lines, very wise.

So you cared about my job huh? You and the rest of your union buddies? I will sleep better knowing I was wrong. In fact you and your buddies were not among the masses searching endlessly for cheap seats but expecting superior service. You didn't shop the internet for tickets, you walked up to the gate and asked how much and paid it. Gee, now I feel bad for buying my Honda Accord and Toyota Tundra.

It is called competition, get over it. Or do you honestly expect a company to pay you what you are not worth because they are in business to take care of families over making profits? right.

If you want more money then EARN more money, do not expect it to be just given to you, or else...
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6632|Brisneyland
New news to hand. The unions are making large concessions to try and get the govt aid package.

Source

ABC news wrote:

The main car workers' union in the United States says it is willing to give up a number of key benefits to help the three biggest car makers get emergency funding from the Government.

United Auto Workers president Ron Gettlefinger said his union would suspend the jobs bank, an arrangement under which workers laid off by the big three Detroit carmakers continue to receive up to 90 per cent of their pay.

The UAW also agreed that payments by the motor companies into a union-run health care trust for retired employees would be deferred.

These concessions will allow Ford, General Motors and Chrysler to make some of the cost savings demanded by Congress, as a condition of granting them a $25 billion emergency loan.
Unions are making major concessions to save workers jobs. Wow , guess they arent so bad after all. I also heard that   company CEO's were offering to get paid $1 per year. Gotta hand it to both sides for giving it a shot.

Last edited by Burwhale the Avenger (2008-12-04 02:39:22)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6695
This is coming after the large consession by UAW in 2005 and 2007.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6965
How on earth did the big 3 allow the UAW to fuck them up the ass so royally? And where's the common sense pragmatic moderation from the unions (don't they realise they endanger their jobs by being so patently ridiculous)? The management should be sacked.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-04 02:54:02)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

New news to hand. The unions are making large concessions to try and get the govt aid package.

Source

ABC news wrote:

The main car workers' union in the United States says it is willing to give up a number of key benefits to help the three biggest car makers get emergency funding from the Government.

United Auto Workers president Ron Gettlefinger said his union would suspend the jobs bank, an arrangement under which workers laid off by the big three Detroit carmakers continue to receive up to 90 per cent of their pay.

The UAW also agreed that payments by the motor companies into a union-run health care trust for retired employees would be deferred.

These concessions will allow Ford, General Motors and Chrysler to make some of the cost savings demanded by Congress, as a condition of granting them a $25 billion emergency loan.
Unions are making major concessions to save workers jobs. Wow , guess they arent so bad after all. I also heard that   company CEO's were offering to get paid $1 per year. Gotta hand it to both sides for giving it a shot.
Yup basically the union has acknowledged they have sucked the company dry, now they need to relax their stranglehold so they can breathe and recover. Do not think for a second that when or if the company recovers the unions will not be there to once again demand outragous compensation for unskilled work............OR ELSE!!

Last edited by lowing (2008-12-04 03:04:04)

Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6632|Brisneyland
If the Auto union is so bad , why dont the auto makers take all of their factories off shore? If the unions are that bad, whats stopping them? It would still be in the shareholder interest.

lowing wrote:

Yup basically the union has acknowledged they have sucked the company dry, now they need to relax their stranglehold so they can breathe and recover.
So by your logic, the CEOs of the auto companies accepting $1 per year as wages, have acknowledged their utter failure to manage the companies that they have been paid so much to make succeed. This works both ways right.

I dont suggest that the UAW is perfect, but you are seriously delusional if you think that the union is the only source of car makers problems, and that if they went away everything would be fine.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

If the Auto union is so bad , why dont the auto makers take all of their factories off shore? If the unions are that bad, whats stopping them? It would still be in the shareholder interest.

lowing wrote:

Yup basically the union has acknowledged they have sucked the company dry, now they need to relax their stranglehold so they can breathe and recover.
So by your logic, the CEOs of the auto companies accepting $1 per year as wages, have acknowledged their utter failure to manage the companies that they have been paid so much to make succeed. This works both ways right.

I dont suggest that the UAW is perfect, but you are seriously delusional if you think that the union is the only source of car makers problems, and that if they went away everything would be fine.
New flash, they are moving plants off shore


Ummmm nope, they are not acknowledging shit, they are using a publicity stunt, (just like driving to DC, front page news there) to get sympathy to nail down that loan.

Never said it was all the unions fault. I blame the inept management for allowing unions to threaten them and extort them instead of growing a set of balls and telling unions to go fuck themselves.

Thing is, there is plenty of greed and corruption with the big 3 t ogo around. Who exactly d oyou want me to feel sorry for? Management nope, unions? I do not think so. Best hting is to wipe the slate clean and leave these guys standing on their heap that used to be their companies and wonder what the hell just happened?

Last edited by lowing (2008-12-04 03:35:39)

Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6632|Brisneyland
I actually agree with parts of what you said. If the Big 3 were acting in the best interests of their shareholders, then things should be way different. For what its worth, I dont feel sorry for the management, I also dont feel sorry for unions. I do feel sorry for workers that lose their jobs though. Threatening to take more factories off shore will make unions meet thier demands. Not sure why more of it hasnt been done sooner.

Toyota made indications that it may close down its factories in Australia, it now has millions of dollars in aid from the govt. Our unions seem to be supporting them pretty much all the way.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7061|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

I actually agree with parts of what you said. If the Big 3 were acting in the best interests of their shareholders, then things should be way different. For what its worth, I dont feel sorry for the management, I also dont feel sorry for unions. I do feel sorry for workers that lose their jobs though. Threatening to take more factories off shore will make unions meet their demands. Not sure why more of it hasn't been done sooner.

Toyota made indications that it may close down its factories in Australia, it now has millions of dollars in aid from the govt. Our unions seem to be supporting them pretty much all the way.
workers that bolstered union extortion of the company? Neh don't feel sorry for them either. Looks it is time to go out and find a job where ya gotta earn a living instead of having just a paycheck delivered on a platter, compliments of the UAW. By the way, it also looks like that, draw a paycheck even when you are laid off thing, isn't gunna be around either.

With all of these concessions, lay offs, and cut backs, it would appear that their jobs were in fact, artificially over valued by union influence, threats, and extortion. It seems they are not as valuable and indispensable as they thought they were.

I will bet the union execs do not miss a paycheck, however.
Karbin
Member
+42|6704
7 myths about Detroit automakers
Here are seven myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers."
The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Reality: All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans that the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway.
The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic.
A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Reality: The domestics' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry.
The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel-economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.
The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.
Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.
Catbox
forgiveness
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I agree that the US automakers make decent cars now... The perception in the country is that they don't though(unfair... yes)... The big 3 need better marketing to prove their case... This still doesn't remove the fact that the unions have helped to price the autoworkers out of a job... Unions were a good thing originally to help stand up for the little guy... now they are to blame for much of what is wrong with the US auto industry... I also think it's absolutely insane that a CEO of a company that is losing money still gets a 25 million dollar salary... even if the company was doing well... 25 million is ridiculous...   If they give them the 25 or 35 billion... what happens in 3 months... they will have gone through that money... will they come ask for more money...?   They can't fix the problems in 3 months... big changes are needed... bankruptcy and reorganize... come back stronger than ever...
Love is the answer

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