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RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,678|5461|Oxferd
Local mechanic
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+385|2444
Lol well there is your issue. Only ever take your car to the manufacturer dealership
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,825|5496|USA

Dealerships can also be awful though.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+385|2444
Anything can be awful. Dealerships have more ability to absorb cost from service issues. They have access to the manufacturer tech support network. They are easier to hold accountable if you know who to complain to. And they are less likely to rip you off due to their ability to "make time" with warranty fraud.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,825|5496|USA

Within reason. Horror stories abound about dealerships that wasted untold amounts of time before some backwoods mechanic addressed the issue in an afternoon. This seems to compound the older your vehicle is. Both kinds of places can have barely-trained parts swappers though, so there is that.

I think in some ways, a dealership mechanic might feel more comfortable with shrugging a customer off.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4082|London, England
In my experience, dealership service departments live for the moment when they can point out you are at xxxxx miles and need to have your cabin air filter swapped out for the low low cost of $90. Meanwhile it's $9 on amazon and takes thirty seconds to replace.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
I have many dealership horror stories.

Modern cars scare the shit out of me, with old cars you get warning of a problem, leaks, funny noises etc.
With modern cars there's a pop and you have no steering, or brakes, or gearbox, or the computer says you can only do 20kmh until you can get it to a dealer because a 5c sensor has failed.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-01-13 05:32:43)

Epstein didn't kill himself
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,878|5356|949

i have a modern car and get warned of a problem before it becomes catastrophic too. I don't even have to try to deduce what the sound means - a computer tells me exactly where and what the problem is.

Are you a luddite Dilb? You don't like OBD?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+385|2444
All cars since at least the late 90's have computers on it to tell you issues. When you get a check engine light, the mechanic doesn't pop your hood and start looking around with a flashlight. They plug a small computer into your car that pops out a code that tells you what is wrong.

You can actually buy these machines to check your own check engine light.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4082|London, England
ScanTool OBDLink LX Bluetooth: Professional Grade OBD-II Automotive Scan Tool for Windows and Android - DIY Car and Truck Data and Diagnostics https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H9S71LW/re … hEb2S3H35C

With bluetooth!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,878|5356|949

ya the one i bought was like $10. It links to my phone. It's pretty solid. At the very least, it saves you the cost and time of taking your car to the dealer to figure out what the problem is, and keeps them honest too.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

i have a modern car and get warned of a problem before it becomes catastrophic too. I don't even have to try to deduce what the sound means - a computer tells me exactly where and what the problem is.

Are you a luddite Dilb? You don't like OBD?
OBD doesn't alert you to catastrophic issues or fix them.

I know someone whose electronic steering locked solid on a highway, not funny in three lanes of traffic at 110kmh when you're a driving instructor teaching a learner, also two people whose vehicles went into limp-home mode 500km from the nearest dealer.

Pro-tip - don't buy a Ford, or a Mazda - they're also a Ford.
Epstein didn't kill himself
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,878|5356|949

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

i have a modern car and get warned of a problem before it becomes catastrophic too. I don't even have to try to deduce what the sound means - a computer tells me exactly where and what the problem is.

Are you a luddite Dilb? You don't like OBD?
OBD doesn't alert you to catastrophic issues or fix them.

I know someone whose electronic steering locked solid on a highway, not funny in three lanes of traffic at 110kmh when you're a driving instructor teaching a learner, also two people whose vehicles went into limp-home mode 500km from the nearest dealer.

Pro-tip - don't buy a Ford, or a Mazda - they're also a Ford.
In my experience, catastrophic car issues are the result of failing to maintain or fix much simpler problems.

OBD definitely does not fix issues, for sure. When you hear a clunk sound from your engine, does it fix itself? You are talking about diagnosing an issue, not on-the-fly support and resolution. I like that I can plug in my phone and get a diagnosis, instead of having to resort a built-up knowledge base of sounds in my mind, or even a shady 3rd party mechanic.

"Was that a high pitched noise associated with the axle, or was that more of a droning sound related to the fuel line? If only there was a way for the car to alert me of where the trouble condition is found in some easily digestible and convenient way..."

What would happen if the electronic steering went out prior to OBD prevalence? You'd be in the same boat. You're conflating an argument for/against mechanical applications with the implementation of on board electronic diagnosis.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4082|London, England
Before OBD we had hydraulic power steering where you could feel and see a blown line. He does have a point. If a relay goes or a board fries you can't duct tape it on the side of the rosd.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

In my experience, catastrophic car issues are the result of failing to maintain or fix much simpler problems.

OBD definitely does not fix issues, for sure. When you hear a clunk sound from your engine, does it fix itself? You are talking about diagnosing an issue, not on-the-fly support and resolution. I like that I can plug in my phone and get a diagnosis, instead of having to resort a built-up knowledge base of sounds in my mind, or even a shady 3rd party mechanic.

"Was that a high pitched noise associated with the axle, or was that more of a droning sound related to the fuel line? If only there was a way for the car to alert me of where the trouble condition is found in some easily digestible and convenient way..."

What would happen if the electronic steering went out prior to OBD prevalence? You'd be in the same boat. You're conflating an argument for/against mechanical applications with the implementation of on board electronic diagnosis.
I didn't bring up OBD or conflate anything, I'm comparing hydraulic and mechanical systems with electronic ones. OBD is irrelevant to catastrophic failure - unless you drive along with your phone giving second by second updates - even then its not predictive. "Your brakes have failed - pull over now"

Hydraulic and mechanical systems do require maintenance but typically give you some warning, bad luck if you don't pay attention to any of this.

Electronics are typically throwaway and replace and give zero warning, and they have infant and random mortality.
I've seen articles where the automotive electronics industry is assuming the life of a car is now five years so they don't need to design reliability beyond that.
Are people expected to replace all their electronic systems every five years to get reasonable reliability? Mechanical parts can be bad enough, good luck getting bespoke electronic components for a 10 year old car when the manufacturer stopped supporting them.

I hate the new car cost cycle, but at this point I'd advise people to buy new and trade in at 5 years.
Epstein didn't kill himself
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+385|2444

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

In my experience, catastrophic car issues are the result of failing to maintain or fix much simpler problems.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/Qqq8b2K5qsg8M/source.gif

A lot of times things just break as a result of wear or manufacturer defect. My Power steering belt disintegrated on the way home a few months back. No warning and a good maintenance record.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,878|5356|949

Jay wrote:

Before OBD we had hydraulic power steering where you could feel and see a blown line. He does have a point. If a relay goes or a board fries you can't duct tape it on the side of the rosd.
you mean before electronic steering systems. OBD didn't usher in electronic steering. Quite the other way around.

it doesn't matter if you have a sensor tell you the electronic steering is locked or the hydraulic line breaks - either way you are fucked. No pre-warning needed.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

In my experience, catastrophic car issues are the result of failing to maintain or fix much simpler problems.


A lot of times things just break as a result of wear or manufacturer defect. My Power steering belt disintegrated on the way home a few months back. No warning and a good maintenance record.
Of course things break sometimes. I wouldn't exactly call a power steering belt breaking a catastrophic failure.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
You're not understanding, an encapsulated wirebond cracking, an 0201 component debonding from a PCB, or even a badly written bit of code, can lock up your steering with an electronic system.

Good luck avoiding that through 'timely maintenance'.
Epstein didn't kill himself
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,825|5496|USA

Reliability has supposedly improved in recent years, but I'm not completely confident in EPS. I'd feel better in an EPS vehicle kitted with a redundant system to carry in case one fails. I've seen articles talking about this for autonomous vehicles, but not a lot of mention for regular drives. Maybe I'm just overlooking something.

I also prefer the feel of hydraulic steering, though realize that's subjective and maybe dated.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+385|2444
While we are on car talk and electronics can we talk about car push to start systems?
https://i.imgur.com/EY8JToQ.jpg
Do not like. Do not trust.
https://i.imgur.com/WSXXwf0.jpg
Happy middle. Actually it's perfectly balanced.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,825|5496|USA

I think a happy medium are chipped keys, but I'm in no way attached to key ignitions. I regard a push-button start as a convenience like power windows, or a car that you don't need to hand crank to start, or even automatic transmission.

There's always going to be pros and cons. With keyless, there is no industry standardization that I'm aware of. The fob battery dying could be problematic. Sometimes people might think the car's completely shut off when it isn't, leading to a possible CO poisoning hazard at home.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
Having said all that I used to work with an engineer who didn't trust fuel injection or electronic ignition, so he drove a ~1970 Toyota rust-bucket deathtrap.
He was as mad as a box of frogs though.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I think a happy medium are chipped keys, but I'm in no way attached to key ignitions. I regard a push-button start as a convenience like power windows, or a car that you don't need to hand crank to start, or even automatic transmission.

There's always going to be pros and cons. With keyless, there is no industry standardization that I'm aware of. The fob battery dying could be problematic. Sometimes people might think the car's completely shut off when it isn't, leading to a possible CO poisoning hazard at home.
Jump starting a Renault with a flat battery and keyless entry was a nightmare, it took two hours - most of which were spent on google.

Your quest begins:

Can't open bonnet because can't open car - Your move.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+326|2176
i have very little to add to a discussion about cars but, as a your thoughts, musings, insights on this matter intrigue me etc anecdote, a family member's BMW died on the motorway and was basically bricked because of an issue with the main computer. had to be replaced at a dealership at a very high cost and it was purely an electronic fault. the entire car was mechanically fine. that does seem a little counter-intuitive.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,702|4830|eXtreme to the maX
The OEMs have you over a barrel for the electronics, they can charge whatever they like.

Not long before cars are bricked because the OS has gone EOL.
Epstein didn't kill himself

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